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> Koenigsegg beats Bugatti Chiron record run by over 4,5seconds.
J_sta07
post Oct 16 2017, 09:21 AM
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QUOTE (DeGarte @ Oct 16 2017, 09:05 AM) *
Ok. But Koenigsegg uses an advanced monocoque aka "safety cell" with a higher torsional rigidity (despite not having a roof). 65000 Nm/degree compared to 50000 Nm/degree for the Chiron if memory serves me right. And they both use carbon-fiber with aluminum honeycomb. All else being equal, I'd put my bets on the car with a lower mass built by a top echelon aviation/aerospace/F1 specialist in a crash.

Other notes I'd definitely want the car to hit are stress and quality tests before delivery. Koenigsegg regularly exercices their cars 0-350-0 km/h as a part of their standard pre-delivery testing routine. Last I heard Bugatti only does 0-250-0 km/h with the Chiron. There's this perception that they're regularly driving it at speeds in excess of 400 km/h on Ehra-Lessien but that is simply not true as their routine testing is done at Colmar Airport 300 km from Molsheim. Koenigsegg is by far the more stringent tester with a multitude of high risk maneuvers for several weeks before the car leaves the factory. Bugatti? A day or two. I wish I was joking but I'm not. Even their engine spends less time in the static test bed than it does at Koenigsegg and their engine blocks both come from Grainger & Worrall casting. All else being equal...

So there's perception, and then there's reality. Koenigsegg is Casio where it matters. Bugatti where it doesn't matter. But perception is often everything and perception is something Bugatti, or should I say VAG, does better than anyone else. They've got a $18 billion dollar bill and a $3 billion dollar fine to prove it.

Does this make the car unsafe at speeds over 300 km/h though? Maybe not. There is something to be respected about the quality standard of automated processes and the necessity for more stringent testing with handmade products - you could definitely make that case and it would be a valid one. But for personal preference I'd rather have a test driver find out pulling 250 km/h turns and propelling the car to 350 km/h to check if something breaks, than me doing it showing off to my easily impressed friends on a public road. If your customer is putting more stress on the car on the Autobahn than you do in testing, there is something about that picture that makes me uneasy, automated precision or not. And would this fly with Patek who created their own quality seal specifically to confirm rate accuracy with finished watches rather than just uncased movements? I think not. As a matter of fact, I would say it is quite the opposite of what Patek does. Koenigsegg? Not quite Patek but at least they're trying.





You should talk to those members then because I don't care. I own a pair sneakers, does that make me an authority on shoes? I wipe my ass, does that make me an authority on toilet paper? I'm not sure where you're going with this. If it's a pissing contest you want I wont oblige.



Get back to me in a couple of years. The body isn't even cold yet.



It's far more accurate than you putting Bugatti on the same level as Patek and stopping just short of calling Koenigsegg a Casio, as I've demonstrated without a shadow of a doubt with actual fact based arguments.



Have you driven the Agera? I believe you said you hadn't. So where does that leave us, derphurf?


Any post claiming a Chiron isn't immensely special is basically nonsense.
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DeGarte
post Oct 16 2017, 10:44 AM
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QUOTE (emanon @ Oct 16 2017, 10:14 AM) *
Also, what do aerospace companies know about crumple zones and crash standards?


Maybe you should ask the F1 and racing teams that acquires their services?

QUOTE (emanon @ Oct 16 2017, 10:14 AM) *
Further when it comes to longevity and safety stiffness can very much turn into a negative.


Rubbish.

QUOTE (emanon @ Oct 16 2017, 10:14 AM) *
It's marketing and you swallowed it like a trout on a glittery piece of aluminum.


Don't really know how to respond to that. Thanks for the laugh though.

QUOTE (emanon @ Oct 16 2017, 10:14 AM) *
I can assure you of one thing, Bugatti has spent more R&D $$$ testing, retesting, and refining the the Chiron than 10x the gross receipts K has ever seen. They have access to equipment and facilities that would boggle your mind, that NO "small" (by that I mean multi-billion dollar) manufacturer can get their hands on.


So does Volvo.

Bugatti has 20 people working in their "factory" btw. One sixth of Koenigsegg. One tenth of Rimac. And they are so far removed from the process that when all other makers are moving to hybrids and slim drivetrains they're stuck with a McLaren F1 era W16 in a 4400 lbs package. They brandished their move to titanium exhausts but other makers moved to titanium and inconel exhausts years and years ago. It's hilarious.

QUOTE (emanon @ Oct 16 2017, 10:14 AM) *
The K is an astounding car in it's own right and definitely fast as shit, but technologically (in the grand scheme) it's way off the mark compared to major manufacturers. To argue otherwise is just naivety.


And here's where you're supposed to back up that statement with facts. Something real. "X does Y better."

QUOTE (emanon @ Oct 16 2017, 10:14 AM) *
PS, who gives a fcuk if the steering wheel somewhat/kinda resembles an R8?


I didn't open this can of worms. But when nonsense is being flung about then someone has to refute it with cold facts.
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DeGarte
post Oct 16 2017, 10:50 AM
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QUOTE (J_sta07 @ Oct 16 2017, 10:21 AM) *
Any post claiming a Chiron isn't immensely special is basically nonsense.


This "immensely special" thing just got obliterated by a third tier product from a pseudo-hobbyist company in Sweden.
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emanon
post Oct 16 2017, 11:10 AM
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QUOTE (DeGarte @ Oct 16 2017, 11:44 AM) *
Maybe you should ask the F1 and racing teams that acquires their services?


I'm not even going to bother. But point A, building something to spec and designing it are two fundamentally different things. Failing to understand that is your most egregious error. They are production facilities, they lay up molds they are given, if they are given a shit design it will still be shit no matter who produces it. It could be a very high quality part, and fundamentally flawed at the same time. F1, aero, etc all design their own parts and send them out to be manufactured (and they give zero fucks about those things), who they send it to doesn't increase or decrease the design capability of the part. Well done refuting your own point.

QUOTE
Rubbish.


Aaaaaaand, you're out. Stiffness in the wrong area is absolutely a detriment, if you can't grasp that... well, obviously you've never designed anything more complex than permissible with a box of lincoln logs. It's far more entertaining that you don't have a simple grasp of what those numbers even mean, what real world forces translate into, and how it effects related components.

You're also interchanging the term stiffness to mean resistance to a crushing force. They are absolutely not the same thing

PS, i'll just say (and others here will probably back me up), i'm not the guy you want to get into a debate with on the topic of engineering design. You'll have better luck arguing torts with Roman, or commercial development with Fortis. (I wouldn't recommend trying either of those things btw)


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I bought my Lambo with section 8 rent. True story.
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DeGarte
post Oct 16 2017, 11:26 AM
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QUOTE (emanon @ Oct 16 2017, 12:10 PM) *
I'm not even going to bother. But point A, building something to spec and designing it are two fundamentally different things. Failing to understand that is your most egregious error. They are production facilities, they lay up molds they are given, if they are given a shit design it will still be shit no matter who produces it. It could be a very high quality part, and fundamentally flawed at the same time. F1, aero, etc all design their own parts and send them out to be manufactured (and they give zero fucks about those things), who they send it to doesn't increase or decrease the design capability of the part. Well done refuting your own point.



Aaaaaaand, you're out. Stiffness in the wrong area is absolutely a detriment, if you can't grasp that... well, obviously you've never designed anything more complex than permissible with a box of lincoln logs. It's far more entertaining that you don't have a simple grasp of what those numbers even mean, what real world forces translate into, and how it effects related components.

You're also interchanging the term stiffness to mean resistance to a crushing force. They are absolutely not the same thing

PS, i'll just say (and others here will probably back me up), i'm not the guy you want to get into a debate with on the topic of engineering design. You'll have better luck arguing torts with Roman, or commercial development with Fortis. (I wouldn't recommend trying either of those things btw)


You're a funny guy. You've added nothing of substance except straw men, thinly veiled insults and lame threats. And you have the audacity to act smug to give the impression that you're addressing anything I've said.

Again, thanks for the laugh, funny guy.
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LPDADDY
post Oct 16 2017, 12:02 PM
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Quite a pissing contest here, getting to be very entertaining. I am curious to see where it will go


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J_sta07
post Oct 16 2017, 12:03 PM
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QUOTE (DeGarte @ Oct 16 2017, 11:50 AM) *
This "immensely special" thing just got obliterated by a third tier product from a pseudo-hobbyist company in Sweden.


Are you 12? Lost by 5 seconds in the most irrelevant test of all time. Go race your Koenisgegg in Forza.
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DeGarte
post Oct 16 2017, 12:19 PM
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QUOTE (LPDADDY @ Oct 16 2017, 01:02 PM) *
Quite a pissing contest here, getting to be very entertaining. I am curious to see where it will go


Can't speak for anyone else but I've added my two cents and I'm happy with where I'm at so I'm tapping out. Pissing contest aborted. eusa_dance.gif

(sorry to spoil the fun everyone jerry.gif )
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VCR
post Oct 16 2017, 01:41 PM
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No pissing contest Daddy, just stating the facts. I was very fortunate to get invited to an extended Chiron test drive so I guess I know a tiny bit more than the guy who gets his info. from mags, videos an on-line. I was at the Geneva Show in March and the Chiron, K'egg & Pagani stands were 40ft apart from each other so I spent over 2hrs there comparing the three. My Lambo dealer is also the agent for the Bugatti and the K'egg so I had a load down on both cars. As mentioned above, I had a full tour on the K'egg with 2 of their reps and CVK even had a brief chat with me. So I know something about the K'egg. I had test driven a couple of Pagani's so I know what they are like too; but that's another story. A test drive on the Regrera would be the next logical move but that's for another thread.

As to DeGarte, I think the feedback by other members had spoken in volume already. And he is still evading my question: has he seen a Chiron up close or driven one? At least I am front and opened about not having driven a K'egg yet. But what I wrote about had also spoken volume about how familiar I am with the car and the brand. And what has he done? Granted I 'll give him credit on doing his homework but also as I said before, stats are exactly that, stats. He has quoted a plethora of stats, so what does that proof? Stats-wise, the K'egg may be superior at certain criteria but is it necessary a better car overall? And on the same and yet contrary token, he seems to like the Countach. So where does that lead to for the CT, stats-wise?

It really isn't too difficult to engineer a fast car with massive hp. Look at what some tuners had done to the GTR's (no disrespect whatsoever, it's a compliment as it involves good and careful engineering too). But to make a hyper car that drives and feel like a superbly-engineered GT (which it is) at 30mph, 80mph, 150mph, or 250mph+, that is extraordinary! It's not the numbers only but the overall feel which is paramount. And I have high respect for K'egg the company and CVK the man. It's definitely on my short list of dream cars; along with the Chiron. At the end of the day, my vote will go to the Chiron as that car would serve and fit my criteria more. But I would not discount the K'egg; just that it's a different car for different needs and purposes. No pissing contest; not needed and DeGarte wouldn't qualify anyway as evidenced by his exit. Insignificant keyboard warrior trolling on a thread pertaining to cars that he has no real experience in and no idea on whatsoever. DeGarte chooses the K'egg, fine; no problem at all. But to trash-talk a Bugatti Chiron without any proof of first-hand experience, arguing with an engineer on proper engineering and constantly refuting himself with his own posts all the while by merely using numbers to defend his preference, that's just inappropriate, laughable, feeble and absolutely wrong; as concurred by many here.
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Fortis
post Oct 16 2017, 01:51 PM
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QUOTE (emanon @ Oct 17 2017, 03:14 AM) *
Built by, and designed/engineered by are two COMPLETELY different things. Also, what do aerospace companies know about crumple zones and crash standards? Further when it comes to longevity and safety stiffness can very much turn into a negative. More of something doesn't always equate to superiority. Without reviewing the engineering standards and testing involved you have no clue what the change in rigidity actually translates to. It's marketing and you swallowed it like a trout on a glittery piece of aluminum.



I can assure you of one thing, Bugatti has spent more R&D $$$ testing, retesting, and refining the the Chiron than 10x the gross receipts K has ever seen. They have access to equipment and facilities that would boggle your mind, that NO "small" (by that I mean multi-billion dollar) manufacturer can get their hands on.

The K is an astounding car in it's own right and definitely fast as shit, but technologically (in the grand scheme) it's way off the mark compared to major manufacturers. To argue otherwise is just naivety.

PS, who gives a fcuk if the steering wheel somewhat/kinda resembles an R8? It's a REALLY good steering wheel and as things evolve they all converge on what is obviously the best way to do something. I would argue Audi is about the best in the business at this, so I would hope it carries over. F1 steering wheels look virtually identical because it's just the best way. The K wheel isn't anything special, flat bottom with 4 buttons on each side, it could just as easily be in a Camaro and nobody would give it a second look.


Thank you, another irritating fanboy regurgitating internet stats, I honestly donít understand why one has to denigrate another brand in order to support the one he or she worships, thatís completely retarded, itís like God damn religion and politics, some people are just blinded.

DeGarte the new and improved derphurf eusa_wall.gif

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DeGarte
post Oct 16 2017, 07:26 PM
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Calm down, lads. You're getting a wee bit too upset and personal for a car discussion. lol.gif
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