Smash Boy Report post Posted June 10, 2014 Unbelievable.......the combination of amateur driver, too much HP, trees....not good. Only question is if the driver was too aggressive or just an uncontrollable spin. RIP. http://jalopnik.com/instructor-killed-in-c...eway-1588064352 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cake Report post Posted June 10, 2014 I wonder which circuit? (there are three separate road circuits at Summit Point). I was just there a few weekends ago instructing with XtremeXperience on the Jefferson Circuit. There were plenty of trees close to the track but we didn't have any off track incidents the entire three days. I can see how this could happen. Tragic. RIP to the instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smash Boy Report post Posted June 10, 2014 I wonder which circuit? (there are three separate road circuits at Summit Point). I was just there a few weekends ago instructing with XtremeXperience on the Jefferson Circuit. There were plenty of trees close to the track but we didn't have any off track incidents the entire three days. I can see how this could happen. Tragic. RIP to the instructor. Jefferson Circuit. http://www.your4state.com/story/d/story/de...YBE-k0_5mfp9cAQ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djantlive Report post Posted June 10, 2014 Rest in peace to the deceased instructor. A law suit will follow. You can bank on that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
megachad Report post Posted June 10, 2014 That is horrible.. I am sure the driver is scarred for life.. He in no way intended that to happen.. It says he was coming out of turn 7.. Looking at car and corner I would guess he was hot and under steering. Instead of riding it out or giving a little throttle he probably let off and back end came around and started to slide and hit a tree.. or I guess this could be more of an over steer car and it snapped on him.. Just sucks.. I would not drive on a track where there is a tree coming out of a corner.. doesn't sound like a safe layout to me? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktaylor36 Report post Posted June 10, 2014 Stomach just dropped. Have a HPDE tomorrow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerplop Report post Posted June 10, 2014 That seriously sucks That would be a terrifying job at times. Knowing that you could likely correct the situation and teaching someone new to it and basically being at the mercy of their lack of skill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ag02M5 Report post Posted June 10, 2014 What kind of track has trees that are not behind barriers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerplop Report post Posted June 10, 2014 What kind of track has trees that are not behind barriers? I'd venture to guess the trees won't be there for long after this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cake Report post Posted June 10, 2014 That seriously sucks That would be a terrifying job at times. Knowing that you could likely correct the situation and teaching someone new to it and basically being at the mercy of their lack of skill. I teach all sorts of driving (high performance, car control, accident avoidance and new driver training). Yes it can be scary at times - but honestly - I feel safer on a track and at an HPDE in "controlled" conditions than I do on the street. My typical student - and my favorite student - is one who has never been on a track before. It is very rewarding to see someone progress from not knowing anything to seeing some skills develop after only a few sessions or a day. I have told people to slow down plenty of times when I feel they are driving beyond their skill level. I am astounded sometimes at an event like Xtreme Xperience where I've ridden with people who drive FAR faster than they should. It's as though they think they are in a video game and that it's not a "real life" risk. They simply don't understand you can get killed doing this. But those are few and far between. Most go slower than you'd expect. We were on the Jefferson Circuit with Xtreme Xperience - but we ran it clockwise because they felt it was a "safer" direction. There are trees everywhere - and we had problems with families (including little kids) walking down to turn 7 to take photos. Several times we had to boot people out of there. They had no idea they were in a dangerous place because if a car left the track they'd be in harms way. It's a dangerous turn in either direction, and trees are very close to all the circuits from what I could see. Every so often I do think that maybe I should just pay my money and go to HPDE and drive solo and forget about instructing- but I really do enjoy it. I learn as much in the right seat as i do behind the wheel. I know the risks are very real. I do my best to use good judgement and not end up like the instructor in the tragic situation at Summit Point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerplop Report post Posted June 10, 2014 I teach all sorts of driving (high performance, car control, accident avoidance and new driver training). Yes it can be scary at times - but honestly - I feel safer on a track and at an HPDE in "controlled" conditions than I do on the street. My typical student - and my favorite student - is one who has never been on a track before. It is very rewarding to see someone progress from not knowing anything to seeing some skills develop after only a few sessions or a day. I have told people to slow down plenty of times when I feel they are driving beyond their skill level. I am astounded sometimes at an event like Xtreme Xperience where I've ridden with people who drive FAR faster than they should. It's as though they think they are in a video game and that it's not a "real life" risk. They simply don't understand you can get killed doing this. But those are few and far between. Most go slower than you'd expect. We were on the Jefferson Circuit with Xtreme Xperience - but we ran it clockwise because they felt it was a "safer" direction. There are trees everywhere - and we had problems with families (including little kids) walking down to turn 7 to take photos. Several times we had to boot people out of there. They had no idea they were in a dangerous place because if a car left the track they'd be in harms way. It's a dangerous turn in either direction, and trees are very close to all the circuits from what I could see. Every so often I do think that maybe I should just pay my money and go to HPDE and drive solo and forget about instructing- but I really do enjoy it. I learn as much in the right seat as i do behind the wheel. I know the risks are very real. I do my best to use good judgement and not end up like the instructor in the tragic situation at Summit Point. Thanks for the perspective post, cake. I can definitely see how that would be rewarding. I have some issues with people driving fast while I'm in the car with them. Been in terrible situations before where people feel like they need to be Mario Andretti and obviously aren't. I think it would be hard for me at least to do that job. That does sound pretty fun though Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ag02M5 Report post Posted June 10, 2014 Video of track. Not safe at all IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerplop Report post Posted June 10, 2014 Video of track. Not safe at all IMO. Yeahhhhhhhhhhh I wouldn't really feel safe being around all those trees. that's a lot of trees, some are in pretty close proximity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djantlive Report post Posted June 10, 2014 like i said, it's a law suit waiting to happen a track should have run off areas designed to slow the car down (sand pits). this track has grass which means you can kiss your ass good bye as soon as the car leaves pavement. then the trees will make sure you are killed! it's good to be in a litigious state sometimes. it saves you from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cake Report post Posted March 14, 2018 Old thread but very current topic. I am done instructing high performance driving. I've had 7 great seasons in the right seat and I'm quitting while I'm ahead. I was at Roebling Road in Feb to sit in on an instructor training day. Next day a driver died and instructor was seriously injured and air lifted to hospital. It's presumed the driver had a major medical emergency (like heart attack) and was pronounced dead at the scene. They were in a 996 C4 with OEM 3 point seat belts. The instructor took the steering wheel to avoid hitting a car they were quickly gaining on. They avoided a collision but the 996 left the track and brake lights never came on. The car was launched in the air by an earth berm, and (from accounts I've read) came down on the roof - much like a whale breaching. This happened at the end of the front straight as they approached turn 1. Instructor was seriously injured - lots of broken bones. He is home after several weeks in hospital and is expected to make a very good (if not full) recovery, after an extended period with lots of PT and rehab. LP DADDY said a LONG time ago he would not get in the right seat as it's far too risky - and for what? As much as I enjoy being in the right seat, and the reward of helping someone enjoy a sport I've grown to love - I am not doing it anymore. I will continue to instruct car control. This week I was at the track Monday & Tuesday training police. It's intense and there is risk but not like the risk of doing HPDE instructing. I'm no longer willing to risk my personal safety to THAT degree by putting it in another driver's hands. I'm still at risk on the track when I'm driving - but at least I'm in control of the decisions I make on track, including when NOT to drive due to conditions, or too many @ssholes doing stupid things. I still can't control mechanical things that might fail (short of having the best equipment, well prepared and maintained) or environmental hazards like debris on track I might not see that can cut a tire. But if sh!t happens it'll be me driving my car - not sitting in some right seat.... I'm also done giving rides. I can't have the responsibility nor do I want the liability. I've read too many horror stories of law suite and insurance battles over what happens when someone is injured in a car on track. It took me awhile to come to this conclusion but I'm finally there. Thank you LP DADDY. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPDADDY Report post Posted March 14, 2018 Old thread but very current topic. I am done instructing high performance driving. I've had 7 great seasons in the right seat and I'm quitting while I'm ahead. I was at Roebling Road in Feb to sit in on an instructor training day. Next day a driver died and instructor was seriously injured and air lifted to hospital. It's presumed the driver had a major medical emergency (like heart attack) and was pronounced dead at the scene. They were in a 996 C4 with OEM 3 point seat belts. The instructor took the steering wheel to avoid hitting a car they were quickly gaining on. They avoided a collision but the 996 left the track and brake lights never came on. The car was launched in the air by an earth berm, and (from accounts I've read) came down on the roof - much like a whale breaching. This happened at the end of the front straight as they approached turn 1. Instructor was seriously injured - lots of broken bones. He is home after several weeks in hospital and is expected to make a very good (if not full) recovery, after an extended period with lots of PT and rehab. LP DADDY said a LONG time ago he would not get in the right seat as it's far too risky - and for what? As much as I enjoy being in the right seat, and the reward of helping someone enjoy a sport I've grown to love - I am not doing it anymore. I will continue to instruct car control. This week I was at the track Monday & Tuesday training police. It's intense and there is risk but not like the risk of doing HPDE instructing. I'm no longer willing to risk my personal safety to THAT degree by putting it in another driver's hands. I'm still at risk on the track when I'm driving - but at least I'm in control of the decisions I make on track, including when NOT to drive due to conditions, or too many @ssholes doing stupid things. I still can't control mechanical things that might fail (short of having the best equipment, well prepared and maintained) or environmental hazards like debris on track I might not see that can cut a tire. But if sh!t happens it'll be me driving my car - not sitting in some right seat.... I'm also done giving rides. I can't have the responsibility nor do I want the liability. I've read too many horror stories of law suite and insurance battles over what happens when someone is injured in a car on track. It took me awhile to come to this conclusion but I'm finally there. Thank you LP DADDY. I knew you would come around . You are welcome . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acewhip Report post Posted March 14, 2018 Video of track. Not safe at all IMO. Here's another video (next in line on YouTube when I was watching). Comments are pretty damning... Jump to 11:10 for prang "Crash at Riesentoter PCA driver's education event. Summit Point Jefferson Circuit, April 27th, 2014... No run off area at this track exacerbates the severity of the accident.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cake Report post Posted March 15, 2018 I agree Jefferson is not safe and after being there once I’ll never return. I know several drivers who feel the same about that specific circuit. It’s possible improvements have been made (I don’t know) but it wasn’t a fun circuit so there was no reward IMO. I like the Summit Main circuit. Very technical and fun to drive with decent run off in several places. I’ve never driven their Shenandoah circuit but heard negative things and have no interest to find out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPDADDY Report post Posted March 15, 2018 The last time I was at summit point , one of my co drivers got into an accident where the driver of the other car died as he went into the trees . As can be seen on the video , no barriers around the the track which makes the circuit very dangerous . I will never go back there Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smash Boy Report post Posted March 15, 2018 I had heard about this Roebling Rd tragedy, but didn't know the details. Unfortunately not enough students take this thing seriously enough to make it worthwhile for the instructors. Many take too many risks and drive over their ability/experience level. For those with health issues, they should know better. Well done Cake, it's not worth it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TestShoot Report post Posted March 15, 2018 is there any place left to go for good/safe instruction either with my car or provided car? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destructo Report post Posted March 15, 2018 is there any place left to go for good/safe instruction either with my car or provided car? There will always be the inherent risk of injury and/death, so perhaps taking a course at Skip Barber or the like (well established, insured, etc.) would be a good step. I wonder if the ‘bring your own car’ kind of places open themselves up to more problems, especially if someone thinks they are ‘good’ in a car they are familiar with (not saying that is you). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cake Report post Posted March 15, 2018 I agree with Destructo^ The risk is there no matter where you go, and it varies depending on the track, the conditions, and who is around you and how they drive/respect rules/others etc. Your own attitude makes a big difference too. Are you open to instruction? Do you think you already know? What do you want to get from the experience (go fast? learn skill? experience car in a different way? etc). You can't control much of what will happen but if you choose a good club that runs a safe event, and a track with reasonable safety measures, and then pay attention to conditions and don't drive over your head you are mitigating risk to an extent. There are plenty of good venues and great instructors willing to take the right seat. You can also hire a pro-coach for the right seat (they are still out there). The majority of instructors will keep doing it. I'm in a tiny minority when you consider the number of clubs and tracks and DE's held each year. There is a lot to choose from: PCA, BMW, Audi, Chin, NASA, AutoInterests, Hooked-On-Driving, etc. I'd stay away from any club that lets you determine your own run group (I believe SCCA track nights does this). Many will overestimate their skill and nothing is more dangerous than a bunch of drivers who THINK they know what they are doing but have no idea (most just wanna go fast and that - combined with no skill - is recipe for disaster). A race school is a good idea too but you're driving their car (pros/cons to your own car). You want to choose a club that will pair you with an experienced instructor who has been to that circuit before. Preferably the instructor has some training, and the right motivation (in other words - not in it only for free/cheaper track time). Pairings are a gamble and there are times it doesn't work. If you are paired with someone you clash with (for whatever reason) - talk to the Chief Instructor or organizer and ask to be switched. It happens (not frequently) and no one should take it personally. You've paid good money to have an experience and the instructor is a huge part of the enjoyment (or lack thereof). LP DADDY planted the notion for me a long time ago about the risk I was choosing, and I've thought about it ever since. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destructo Report post Posted March 15, 2018 I agree with Destructo^ The risk is there no matter where you go, and it varies depending on the track, the conditions, and who is around you and how they drive/respect rules/others etc. Your own attitude makes a big difference too. Are you open to instruction? Do you think you already know? What do you want to get from the experience (go fast? learn skill? experience car in a different way? etc). You can't control much of what will happen but if you choose a good club that runs a safe event, and a track with reasonable safety measures, and then pay attention to conditions and don't drive over your head you are mitigating risk to an extent. There are plenty of good venues and great instructors willing to take the right seat. You can also hire a pro-coach for the right seat (they are still out there). The majority of instructors will keep doing it. I'm in a tiny minority when you consider the number of clubs and tracks and DE's held each year. There is a lot to choose from: PCA, BMW, Audi, Chin, NASA, AutoInterests, Hooked-On-Driving, etc. I'd stay away from any club that lets you determine your own run group (I believe SCCA track nights does this). Many will overestimate their skill and nothing is more dangerous than a bunch of drivers who THINK they know what they are doing but have no idea (most just wanna go fast and that - combined with no skill - is recipe for disaster). A race school is a good idea too but you're driving their car (pros/cons to your own car). You want to choose a club that will pair you with an experienced instructor who has been to that circuit before. Preferably the instructor has some training, and the right motivation (in other words - not in it only for free/cheaper track time). Pairings are a gamble and there are times it doesn't work. If you are paired with someone you clash with (for whatever reason) - talk to the Chief Instructor or organizer and ask to be switched. It happens (not frequently) and no one should take it personally. You've paid good money to have an experience and the instructor is a huge part of the enjoyment (or lack thereof). LP DADDY planted the notion for me a long time ago about the risk I was choosing, and I've thought about it ever since. You’ll find there aren’t many on here that have the experience and wisdom behind the wheel as Cake. Take her advice to heart 100%, she knows what she’s talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPDADDY Report post Posted March 15, 2018 Anyone who wants to drive their car aggressively on track should have a full rollcage . One should look at pictures of rolled cars without a rollcage, the roof caves in completely. On the other hand, drive at 7/10 to 8/10 , make sure the car has had a good safety check by a good mechanic beforehand , it should be an enjoyable experience. All of this is assuming one knows what they are doing . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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