IPB

X   Site Message
(Message will auto close in 2 seconds)


Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

9 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Super Trofeo Stradale Coolant Problem, There is a problem that they don't want you to know about
SuperBee
post Aug 13 2012, 01:57 PM
Post #1







Group: LP Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 4-August 12
From: NY
Member No.: 106,698





So, as a few of you know, I've had problems with my coolant temperature running hot. At MMC it hit 120+, causing the rev limiter to kick in (obviously, I pulled through the pit onto the service road to cool down). The dealer suggested I check the coolant level, which I did. Then, I took it in, and they responded by telling me they couldn't find any problem, and that "the car is supposed to run hot." After consulting a number of you, and reading everything I could find, I diagnosed the problem as either the thermostat or the water pump, I responded:

As per your suggestion, I checked the coolant levels Tuesday morning, to see how they were, and they were exactly where they should be. Obviously, I’m not leaking any coolant. In my mind, that leaves two possibilities: a faulty thermostat, or a defective water pump.

The suggestion of the Lambo rep that the car “is supposed to run like that” is insulting to my intelligence. But, if that’s his attitude, I’ll take the car back, run it, and we’ll wind up with a blown head gasket, or worse. Only an irresponsible moron would take such a position. I trust you will explain to him the reality of the situation. He needs to understand that I’m not some guy who knows nothing about cars, and I’m not the guy who takes the car out to drive it to the club to play golf. While I’m not a pro, I know these cars, and I do know a bit. I know enough to recognize that short of running the car without oil, there’s not much worse one can do, other than run a car that you know to be overheating.


SO, they responded that since they couldn't duplicate the result, that Lamborghini wouldn't authorize replacement of the thermostat. Fortunately, I had taken a photo of the coolant gauge at 105 and sent it to them with an email. They responded by email stating:

1. LP550-560-570 and all other variants run hotter than 04-08 MY cars2. Fans on 550 -560-570 are PWM controlled , an ecu controls the voltage to the fan and they ramp up and down gently3. MY 04-08 have fans that are either at 100% or 0 %4. LP550-560-570 will run from 90 to 105 and is normal5. What the customer exhibited is not normal in the case the engine rpm was limited and I agree6. We will send to you N/C a special t-stat for the car on Monday.7. I will have some instructions for you8. Advise the customer, I had to be sure that the normal running temp and the warning he got were two different issues and they are.


Is that true? 105 is normal for the LP550-560-570 variants? Not acording to the people I spoke to. So, I persisted, and finally, the dealer sent me the following email:

I just received a phone call from the Lamborghini Rep. I will receive and updated thermostat for your STS by Wednesday or Thursday this week. It was made clear to me that in efforts to always monitor ways to make these vehicles run and perform more efficiently, they have realized that the current thermostats ( In your model vehicle ) cooling capabilities were insufficient. Through constant testing they have revised the current thermostat application for the STS. Thus a new updated thermostat with more efficient cooling was made for your model. In addition Lamborghini is also releasing for your STS an updated cooler with another row of fins. This will be made available in October and we will bring your STS in and update with the new part as soon as we can get one.
I want to be clear that Lamborghini LLC states that your model STS can and will run up to 100 to 105 degrees and that is acceptable. Your observation of the vehicle running to 120 and revs being limited under extreme driving conditions is what has Lamborghini LLC is concerned about and wants to rectify
.

WTF, really? I responded with:

Thank you for the update. However, I need to clarify several items.

First, I would NOT reference the conditions in which the coolant in my STS red-lined as “extreme,” by any interpretation of the word. On the contrary, I would describe the condition under which the car’s coolant hit 120+ as “driving the car as it is intended to be driven.” There was nothing extreme about the condition, and it was immediately clear to me that there was a problem.
Second, I am not talking about the car running “up to 100 to 105.” I am talking about the car routinely running over 105, which simply is unacceptable (as I am sure they would agree). I am VERY concerned as to what such temperatures might eventually do to the head gasket, or the engine. As I stated in a prior email, other than running a car with insufficient oil, there isn’t anything worse, that I can think of, than running a car that is overheating. Simply put, the problem that Lamborghini now acknowledges to exist, should have been discovered and addressed earlier. When, if ever, did they plan on telling me?

Third, I find it very interesting to hear that while last week, they wanted “proof” before authorizing replacement of the thermostat, they now realize, and acknowledge, that they have what is, basically, a recall on two fronts (the thermostat, and the “cooler”). I want to know exactly when did they realize there was a problem with the STS thermostat and cooler, and when did they develop this “new updated thermostat with more efficient cooling…made for [my]model?”

Also, please advise as to how the cooler is replaced; what, exactly, is done to replace the cooler? I want to know where the cooler is located, and how it is accessed. What, specifically, has to been done to “replace the cooler.” Are we talking about the two “coolers” located behind the scoops?


I'll keep my fingers crossed. In the meantime, any and all comments, quips, wise-ass remarks, anecdotes, etc. are welcome.
P.S.
One of my most-trusted and highly respected fellow Lambo owners noted as follows:

I only believe that they called your driving 'extreme' because that is how they are going to get around having to outfit EVERY STS with the bigger radiator and new thermostat. Instead of making it a recall or TSB, they will just say that if the owner of the car subjects the vehicle to 'extreme driving' (i.e. on the track or auto-cross) only then will they outfit the car with the new parts.

It's also interesting how they first "knew nothing about the problem", and then all of the sudden they have a revised thermostat and new radiator in development. Which just proves that the dealership never even contacted the Lambo rep...He just took it upon himself to say that is "normal" for them to run hot.



--------------------

Bradley "SuperBee" Silverbush
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Fortis
post Aug 13 2012, 02:10 PM
Post #2





Group Icon

Group: LPower VIP
Posts: 23,392
Joined: 1-April 06
Member No.: 7,524





It happend once for me, does your car run hot during normal driving conditions or only when you track it?
Thank you for the time you put into this, I am sure it will benefit others.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
vyce77
post Aug 13 2012, 02:28 PM
Post #3







Group: Official LP Member
Posts: 3,326
Joined: 28-April 09
Member No.: 21,082





I would be interested to hear how much a new thermostat costs. In my experience with other cars, I recall they are pocket-change cheap.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
emanon
post Aug 13 2012, 02:49 PM
Post #4




Group Icon

Group: LPower VIP
Posts: 5,872
Joined: 17-October 09
From: SoCal
Member No.: 22,556





QUOTE (vyce77 @ Aug 13 2012, 03:28 PM) *
I would be interested to hear how much a new thermostat costs. In my experience with other cars, I recall they are pocket-change cheap.


A standard issue thermostat is usually $10-15 give or take, I'll be surprised if this thing is a penny less than $100, probably closer to $150.

I find it rather odd that a thermostat would be causing these problems, they are normally just a valve to control flow through the radiator so the motor gets to adequate running temp (doesn't run too cool). If it's overheating, unless the thermostat is stuck closed, that sounds like insufficient cooling capacity in the heat exchanger, either due to size or airflow.

If the thermostat isn't capable of flowing enough fluid volume then someone in the engineering dept needs to be shot. Increasing the fluid flow through a heat exchanger only works up to a certain point, as the fluid needs to be in the fins/tubes for X period of time to properly cool, regardless of volume. This is why heat exchangers get larger by volume and/or more powerful fans to remove heat.

My guess is the revised thermostat will open sooner to bring the normal running temp down slightly and they are hoping it will bandaid the issue. The real fix won't come until the larger heat exchanger is installed.

Does the STS have blocked off or removed air inlets for the radiators?


--------------------

QUOTE (Modo)
I bought my Lambo with section 8 rent. True story.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
q8ylambo
post Aug 13 2012, 03:08 PM
Post #5







Group: Lambo Owner
Posts: 783
Joined: 22-September 09
From: kuwait
Member No.: 22,347





QUOTE (SuperBee @ Aug 13 2012, 01:57 PM) *
Is that true? 105 is normal for the LP550-560-570 variants? Not acording to the people I spoke to. So, I persisted, and finally, the dealer sent me the following email:


yea in my country it's normal to see 90-105
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
57udl3y
post Aug 13 2012, 05:26 PM
Post #6







Group: Official LP Member
Posts: 3,168
Joined: 21-October 08
From: New Jersey/Wine Country
Member No.: 16,783





QUOTE (vyce77 @ Aug 13 2012, 06:28 PM) *
I would be interested to hear how much a new thermostat costs. In my experience with other cars, I recall they are pocket-change cheap.

what i was thinking. If i was head of their CS i would just send one out seeing how its a fraction compared to the car and would be an easy fix for a customer.


--------------------

“Things always end badly. Otherwise, they wouldn’t end.”
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
toyroy2003
post Aug 13 2012, 07:01 PM
Post #7







Group: Official LP Member
Posts: 2,673
Joined: 2-March 10
From: Seattle, WA
Member No.: 23,696





Good to know. I just [picked up my STS from BMCD today...put 200 miles on it...drove through 101 in 109 degree weather, A/C on...about 80-85...did not note and high temps on the car..


--------------------

Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
toyroy2003
post Aug 13 2012, 08:57 PM
Post #8







Group: Official LP Member
Posts: 2,673
Joined: 2-March 10
From: Seattle, WA
Member No.: 23,696





Just confirmed tonite with one of the Factory "Big Wiggs'" here in Monterey (they have a National meeting prior to this weeks events) that YES there will be a recall and replacement of the cooling issue for the STS cars...I also kept a closer eye on it tonite and noticed I was running right at about 95-100 under normal driving conditions...
Attached File(s)
Attached File  401980_515932998432695_1535469196_n.jpg ( 26.74K ) Number of downloads: 3
 


--------------------

Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Lambofan35
post Aug 13 2012, 09:14 PM
Post #9




Lambo Owner
Group Icon

Group: LPower VIP
Posts: 1,327
Joined: 14-November 11
Member No.: 88,571





Very interesting. You would think we would have heard something like this on the LP560 or LP570 over the past couple years. Something seems odd especially how the STS has a vented bonnet like no other LP car.

It's not getting a whole lot of engine mods compared to the other LPs so what happened?
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
toyroy2003
post Aug 13 2012, 09:19 PM
Post #10







Group: Official LP Member
Posts: 2,673
Joined: 2-March 10
From: Seattle, WA
Member No.: 23,696





I can tell you, as others have said here..it is a different exhaust, it is FASTER, I think there were some pretty major improvments to the motor...from what I was told..they did not jump up and down about the increased performance as it would have "killed" their SL market..which they will still produce for 12-13 MY..the STS was a one time shot and has/have sold to people by word of mouth to its stunning improvments...for me the SEATS alone are incrediable..but the engine sound and the OBVIOUS HP increase over the 2011 SL cars I have driven is very very noticeable...

I think I would compare it like my LP670-4SV to the LP640 last cars...if I had to guess I would say the STS could easily be called the LP600-4


--------------------

Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
HannibalACP82
post Aug 14 2012, 01:39 AM
Post #11




LP Cheerleader


Group: Official LP Member
Posts: 11,307
Joined: 5-September 10
From: Western PA
Member No.: 24,965





QUOTE (toyroy2003 @ Aug 14 2012, 01:19 AM) *
...they did not jump up and down about the increased performance as it would have "killed" their SL market...if I had to guess I would say the STS could easily be called the LP600-4


Now you have my interest! Who is going to be the first to step up and TT an STS? Sounds like it could be a real monster!


--------------------

QUOTE (TeamSalamone @ Sep 10 2014, 09:25 AM) *
"There is no substitute for sexy.. and sexy is high maintenance and expensive with both women and cars ... Deal with it proudly like a Baller ". TEAMSALAMONE 2014
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
SuperBee
post Aug 14 2012, 04:01 AM
Post #12







Group: LP Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 4-August 12
From: NY
Member No.: 106,698





QUOTE (Fortis @ Aug 13 2012, 03:10 PM) *
It happend once for me, does your car run hot during normal driving conditions or only when you track it?
Thank you for the time you put into this, I am sure it will benefit others.


Good question. It runs hot in normal driving conditions. "Hot," as used here, means regualrly at 100-105, and sometimes above. "Normal," as used here, means not really pushing the car hard, not stop-and-go traffic, and not in heavy traffic.
And seriously? This car was supposedly designed, and built, to track. As such, it should not be running this hot. It certainly shouldn't overheat in regular track usage. By "regular track usage," I mean running 20 minute sessions, with over half an hour between the first three sessions, and an hour before the fourth dession, and the car overheat during the fourth session.
In the three years I had my 2008 Superleggera, and tracked it, it never went above 90.


--------------------

Bradley "SuperBee" Silverbush
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
SuperBee
post Aug 14 2012, 04:14 AM
Post #13







Group: LP Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 4-August 12
From: NY
Member No.: 106,698





QUOTE (toyroy2003 @ Aug 13 2012, 10:19 PM) *
I can tell you, as others have said here..it is a different exhaust, it is FASTER, I think there were some pretty major improvments to the motor...from what I was told..they did not jump up and down about the increased performance as it would have "killed" their SL market..which they will still produce for 12-13 MY..the STS was a one time shot and has/have sold to people by word of mouth to its stunning improvments...for me the SEATS alone are incrediable..but the engine sound and the OBVIOUS HP increase over the 2011 SL cars I have driven is very very noticeable...

I think I would compare it like my LP670-4SV to the LP640 last cars...if I had to guess I would say the STS could easily be called the LP600-4


I totally agree,except with the name suggestion, but only because there aren't 600 ponies. Perhaps the "LP 570-4+?"


--------------------

Bradley "SuperBee" Silverbush
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
SuperBee
post Aug 14 2012, 04:21 AM
Post #14







Group: LP Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 4-August 12
From: NY
Member No.: 106,698





QUOTE (Lambofan35 @ Aug 13 2012, 10:14 PM) *
Very interesting. You would think we would have heard something like this on the LP560 or LP570 over the past couple years. Something seems odd especially how the STS has a vented bonnet like no other LP car.

It's not getting a whole lot of engine mods compared to the other LPs so what happened?


Excellent question. No one at my dealer, or at Lamborghini, wants to say. My conclusions as to why are only based upon conjecture and speculation. Obviously, they did something. The first thing I notice is that the blowers on my SL were much louder, and (I believe) much more efficient at dissipating heat. The sesond thing I noticed (and I don't know for certain), is that it appears from looking through the front scoops that perhaps they went with a slightly smaller radiator to further drop the weight of the car, and that the reduced surface area translates to less heat dissipation. My third thought is that the new fans on the SL are smaller and, similarly, less efficient.


--------------------

Bradley "SuperBee" Silverbush
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
SuperBee
post Aug 14 2012, 04:39 AM
Post #15







Group: LP Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 4-August 12
From: NY
Member No.: 106,698





QUOTE (toyroy2003 @ Aug 13 2012, 09:57 PM) *
Just confirmed tonite with one of the Factory "Big Wiggs'" here in Monterey (they have a National meeting prior to this weeks events) that YES there will be a recall and replacement of the cooling issue for the STS cars...I also kept a closer eye on it tonite and noticed I was running right at about 95-100 under normal driving conditions...

Thanks for the update! Here' my baby, aptly named "Red."
Attached File  STS_Av_shot.jpg ( 141.67K ) Number of downloads: 76
Attached File  STS_Dl_rear_shot.jpg ( 189.38K ) Number of downloads: 68
[attach
ment=93374:STS_at_D...ouse__2_.jpg]
Attached File(s)
Attached File  STS_at_DL_House__2_.jpg ( 145.96K ) Number of downloads: 69
 


--------------------

Bradley "SuperBee" Silverbush
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
SuperBee
post Aug 14 2012, 04:44 AM
Post #16







Group: LP Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 4-August 12
From: NY
Member No.: 106,698





QUOTE (57udl3y @ Aug 13 2012, 06:26 PM) *
what i was thinking. If i was head of their CS i would just send one out seeing how its a fraction compared to the car and would be an easy fix for a customer.


It's not the cost of the part, it's the cost of the labor. The thermostat is located underneath the engine, so they need to open it from underneath, drain the coolant, replace the thermostat, and replace the coolant. And if they have to replace the coolers? That is a pain in the ass. The thing to remember is that because it is a factory recall, they lose time/money, because they have to compensate the dealer to do the recall work.


--------------------

Bradley "SuperBee" Silverbush
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
SuperBee
post Aug 14 2012, 04:49 AM
Post #17







Group: LP Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 4-August 12
From: NY
Member No.: 106,698





QUOTE (q8ylambo @ Aug 13 2012, 04:08 PM) *
yea in my country it's normal to see 90-105


In Kuwait? Yes, that may be, but that is because your daytime air temperature averages out at about 113 from April to September ....but it's a dry heat! That's over 20 degrees above what the average here in NY is, so that's an unfair comaprison.


--------------------

Bradley "SuperBee" Silverbush
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Vahid
post Aug 14 2012, 03:57 PM
Post #18




Lambo Owner


Group: Lambo Owner
Posts: 384
Joined: 23-March 10
Member No.: 23,865





Alright SuperBee,

Not sure how I missed this thread. Yes there is problem with the STS temps and yes Lambo knows about it and I think I was the very first one to fight them every day. My thermostat was changed as well which was not the issue to begin with. On my track day, I think it took me about 1 lap before it overheated and the rev limiter kicked in! That's right, 1 LAP! Meanwhile the 458 in front of me... smile.gif

So here is the deal: New radiators are already developed and just went through some initial testing. Couple of R&D guys will head to Dubai at the end of August to fit the new radiators on my car and they will stay here for 3 or so days to do some road testing as well as some track testing. I was probably a very good test subject for them because of the extreme temperatures we have here in this month!

I assure you that the new radiators are going to get some major ass-whopping! Me driving + 50 degrees C weather and humidity = RIP new radiators! icon_mrgreen.gif Lets just say if they work for me, they will be 100% nice and chilli for you.

I will be updating you every day during the testing to let you know about the progress so you will know what to expect.

Lastly, the reason why they say its your driving and not the car? I will tell you through PM. wink.gif
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
BLACKBULL
post Aug 14 2012, 05:51 PM
Post #19







Group: Official LP Member
Posts: 2,423
Joined: 23-February 07
From: USA
Member No.: 10,054





The aftermarket could provide an effective and cost efficient solution. Some Aquip stainless steel braided hose, Earl's coolers and AN fittings and you are good to go!!


--------------------

Real men drive M/T's!!!!!!




Too many people overvalue what they are not and undervalue what they are. - Malcolm S. Forbes

Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
SuperBee
post Aug 14 2012, 06:36 PM
Post #20







Group: LP Member
Posts: 104
Joined: 4-August 12
From: NY
Member No.: 106,698





QUOTE (Vahid @ Aug 14 2012, 04:57 PM) *
Alright SuperBee,

Not sure how I missed this thread. Yes there is problem with the STS temps and yes Lambo knows about it and I think I was the very first one to fight them every day. My thermostat was changed as well which was not the issue to begin with. On my track day, I think it took me about 1 lap before it overheated and the rev limiter kicked in! That's right, 1 LAP! Meanwhile the 458 in front of me... smile.gif

So here is the deal: New radiators are already developed and just went through some initial testing. Couple of R&D guys will head to Dubai at the end of August to fit the new radiators on my car and they will stay here for 3 or so days to do some road testing as well as some track testing. I was probably a very good test subject for them because of the extreme temperatures we have here in this month!

I assure you that the new radiators are going to get some major ass-whopping! Me driving + 50 degrees C weather and humidity = RIP new radiators! icon_mrgreen.gif Lets just say if they work for me, they will be 100% nice and chilli for you.

I will be updating you every day during the testing to let you know about the progress so you will know what to expect.

Lastly, the reason why they say its your driving and not the car? I will tell you through PM. wink.gif



--------------------

Bradley "SuperBee" Silverbush
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

9 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
3 User(s) are reading this topic (3 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 19th February 2018 - 09:58 PM

> Our Sponsors

your alt tag