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JanDaMan
post Nov 20 2017, 01:59 PM
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Anyone have suggestions for some good home stereo system speakers. I have the old school infinity box type speakers about 26" X 14" hooked to my 30 year old Sherwood receiver. I love that damn old school receiver but it petered out and I found a Pioneer vsx-1019ah at a garage sale for $15 but it seems to lack punch in the way of feeling power out of the speakers. The Sherwood and Infinity speakers worked real well together and had a real heavy power feeling to it. Not sure why the Pioneer/Infinity combo seems so weak with good high end pitch but lacks power punch. I am thinking maybe the mix of newer type receiver and old school speakers may not be pairing well. Then I noticed one speaker material was starting to tear and that got me thinking of looking into new speakers. Anyway, looking at Best Buy and other places, there now seems to be just these huge tall speakers now and no big box speakers like my Infinity. I guess times have changed (I need to get out more). At Best Buy I wasn't that impressed with the tall speakers sound, as they just seemed loud but seemed to lack the power "oomph" feeling. I like my innards to shake a little bit rather than just my ears hurting. Am I missing something? Maybe I need the tall speakers along with some subwoofer box type? They had some tall Klipsch, Polk, etc. Maybe I need to go back to Best Buy and just listen to different combos of what they have.


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Roman
post Nov 20 2017, 03:22 PM
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paradigm audio Monitor 11

Add an SVS PC12 subwoofer and some paradigm monitor surrounds and its the tits.


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VCR
post Nov 20 2017, 05:42 PM
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Sounds like your Infinity's are at least 2 decades old which would explain the decomposing components. If they are older, that also explains your sound preference as that was the golden era of Infinity when Arnie Nudell & Cary Christie were still partners.
I don't think you will get any "punchy" sound from any Japanese brand receiver. There really isn't enough output power and most are rated at 6ohms. Infinity's can be quite "hungry" for power and what the receiver can supply isn't going to cut it.
Best Buy isn't the best place to look for music speakers; especially the type that you want. A visit to the local audio shop is likely.
Roman is correct. Paradigm's are decent performers.
If you like Infinity's, give the Primus 363 a try. Inexpensive with relatively good sound for the money. PSB's are also quite good and a good buy. Boston Acoustics is good as well. You have to make the call as to whether you want a subwoofer or not. I find most of them do not integrate well and room placement is imperative. But I am extremely demanding when it comes to hi-fi so I could be overly critical.
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sprite
post Nov 20 2017, 06:27 PM
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Definitely go to a high end audio shop instead of Best Buy. Staff will be much more knowledgeable and should have listening setups.


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87-Countach
post Nov 20 2017, 07:51 PM
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Keep the Infinity speakers. If the drivers are in disrepair, either replace with NOS if available or have them rebuilt @ Millersound.com.

Vintage Infinities are still good speakers if maintained.

I am the original owner of a set of Infinity RS1b’s and even though they require maintenance and service, they are still magic.

I view them like a vintage Lambo. Pain to maintain, parts and service expensive, but when it’s good, it’s really really good.
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Flash Gordon
post Nov 20 2017, 08:01 PM
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QUOTE (sprite @ Nov 20 2017, 09:27 PM) *
Definitely go to a high end audio shop instead of Best Buy. Staff will be much more knowledgeable and should have listening setups.


Second this. You need a superior listening environment to really hear the differences/nuances in speakers. Much of which is subjective to the average person (if you're an audiophile like VCR different story). Maybe bring a range of music as a reference to compare. Spend a few hours, at least. My ears didn't warrant much over a couple grand for speakers. I was lucky to get the B&W's while they were still made in the UK. I have some Boston Acoustics from the mid-eighties when they were still a boutique company and made good stuff. Have fun with it.
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VCR
post Nov 20 2017, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE (87-Countach @ Nov 20 2017, 07:51 PM) *
Keep the Infinity speakers. If the drivers are in disrepair, either replace with NOS if available or have them rebuilt @ Millersound.com.

Vintage Infinities are still good speakers if maintained.

I am the original owner of a set of Infinity RS1b’s and even though they require maintenance and service, they are still magic.

I view them like a vintage Lambo. Pain to maintain, parts and service expensive, but when it’s good, it’s really really good.


Nice! icon_thumleft.gif But I don’t think JanDaMan is after the same goal as you (or me). You are at the level that only Fellippe, rmtn, I and, I think, AccidentalChef would understand. I had a pair or should I say a set of RS-1b as well. Troublesome to maintain but not even remotely close to being obsolete.
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JanDaMan
post Nov 20 2017, 10:05 PM
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Thanks for the replies. It's interesting to hear the favorable comments about the old school stuff. I remember when in college years back, I had this Mazda RX7 with some type of amp/equalizer unit under my seat. I would turn only the radio on and it sounded ok, but when I pressed that amp/equalizer button under my sest even with the volume down it let out this heavy "thump" that went right to the sole. That is the type of stuff I miss, because the music from that was unreal.

Not sure how old my infinities are, but they have the old school 2 slip in wires in the back. Will post a photo later, front & back. My Best Buy did have a listening area but I just wasn't that impressed with what they had. I am in Orange County CA and mostly you just see Best Buy & such, but I did find this place in the link below that looks worth checking out and they have the Paradigm as mentioned above. I have an ancient set of EPI that I run with the Infinity which are pretty good too. I wouldn't mind repairing the infinity either. I just need to bring back the sole rather than just sound; whether that be old or new. Sounds like my garage sale Pioneer receiver may not be up to par either.

http://www.audiovideotoday.com/


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rmtn
post Nov 20 2017, 11:20 PM
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That Pioneer is a home theater amplifier, and especially current cheaper ones can have really thin and powerless sound.
I would sell it away.
Your speakers are past their prime and soon totally dead.
But you can sell them in "as is" condition to someone who has more hifi background and wants to rebuild them as a hobby.

I would suggest some notable size speakers, those Paradigm Audio Monitor 11's that Roman mentioned will have a good full range body to any music you listen, several other marks have similar.
IF you want identical spec but in a bit more stylish package check Sonus Faber Venere S speakers.
With either of those you might want a subwoofer if you want to really feel the lowest notes or want to listen loud in big livingroom.

Pair them with good guality 2 channel integrated amplifier and you will be golden.
If you spend 700-1500$ on an 2 channel integrated amp you will get a lot for your money and you will enjoy it for next 20-30years without any problems. Something like NAD C368 should work well, it has enough connections to cater to digital stuff and possible addition of sub, but leaves out other nonsense and has reputable real power to drive speakers.

For speaker wire use basic ones that has at least 2x4mm2 area copper conductors.
You can also spend a bit more if you want and buy some good value for money brand speakerwires.
I personally can recommend ViaBlue SC-4: http://www.viablue.de/com/speaker_cables_s..._wire_t6s.shtml

But dont buy into snakeoils and bullshit highend cables which hifi-segment is full of.
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VCR
post Nov 21 2017, 12:00 AM
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JanDaMan, I am guessing you have the Infinity SM, SL or Kappa series speakers. I am beginning to understand the sound that you are after. The thumping bass that you want is not really tonally accurate and balanced but if that's your preference, no problem at all. And it is fun to have bass that can literally shake the bottom of your pants.

The problem is most, if not all, "modern" receivers are "AV receivers" made primarily for Audio Video or Home Theatre to which multi-channels are involved. If I am reading it write, you want a simple 2-channel (left & right only) music set up. The Pioneer that you bought, for example, have 7 channels. While the price is right, you are only using 2 out of the 7 channels and not using its video capabilities at all. You will encounter the same problem with virtually any current-model receiver that you can buy today. For the same reason, a current AV receiver will have at least 7 built-in amps and the size of the box can only be so big therefore the size of its power supply and hence its output power is limited. Yes, the new Class D amps can be compact, high powered and run cool but that's another can of worms which aren't related to this topic here.

Anyway, I think your best bet is to get an integrated amp instead of a receiver. Essentially, it is a 2-channel amp (like your Sherwood) but without the radio tuner. Whether you can do without the radio or not I don't know. But you can always hook up a radio tuner or stream a digital radio via Bluetooth to most modern integrated amps so nothing is really lost. Based on the website that you have supplied above, I would say integrated amps from Rotel, Marantz and Yamaha (in that order) would be my recommendations. McIntosh amps are cool as well since they have the retro and the signature blue-glow look, but if it's solid thumping base you want, its tonal signature may not be your choice. Classe is great but probably a bit too complicated and I am not sure if you want to spend that much. Tube amps are most probably too fussy for your needs. Rotel is likely the most accurate but it might sound a but "conservative" for your taste. Marantz is perhaps the overall best fit. Ask the sales person at that shop to give you a demo. And like Flash Gordon had suggested, bring your own CD's or music files that you are familiar with so that you will know right away whether the sound being demo'd is your cup of tea or not. Choose the integrated amp as you see fit and your budget allows. And based on the same website, Paradigm and GoldEar speakers should integrate well with the amps mentioned above. Choose the model that fits your taste and budget accordingly. Hope this helps. Good luck!
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Fellippe
post Nov 21 2017, 02:38 AM
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QUOTE (sprite @ Nov 20 2017, 10:27 PM) *
Definitely go to a high end audio shop instead of Best Buy. Staff will be much more knowledgeable and should have listening setups.


iamwithstupid.gif

Where do you live JanDaMan?

I'd keep it simple for now and upgrade your amplifier. Plenty of good integrated amplifiers to get the job done without having to get individual pre/power amps. If you already like the tonal signature of your current speakers, then this is the easiest way to get better sound without any real risks (assuming you can pick the right amplifier).

It's always a very cool thing to see a great amplifier provide a "high end" experience on low end stuff. Pair a good $3500 integrated tube amp to any Best Buy speaker, and the experience will be a lot better than you could expect.

Better speakers on top of that will naturally sound better, but in a way it's always been my M.O. to make these upgrades progressively. A lot of newb audio enthusiasts are hesitant to pull the trigger on mere four and five figure gear even if they drop that much or more on car upgrades.

What's also cool is that this can totally be a buy as you go hobby. You can literally do it one piece at a time if you wanted to. Even if you had millions, I'd still recommend a somewhat progressive upgrade path as opposed to buying a "supercar" because your appreciation wouldn't be quite the same. It takes a few years to condition the ears to proper sound anyways.

Everyone's got their opinions on this topic, but to me it's tubes only (no solid state). At the very high end, it's where you will end up anyways so might as well "learn" now instead of later. icon_thumleft.gif icon_mrgreen.gif
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sprite
post Nov 21 2017, 05:50 AM
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I have a Rotel RA-1592 paired with a pair of B&W CM10 and very happy with the sound, apparently CM series is discontinued and replaced with the 700 series now.


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porter
post Nov 21 2017, 07:44 AM
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Do not talk to VCR about this subject. You will end up with an incredible system and will get no work done. He helped design our home AV system. Pornhub is so lifelike now!!!
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MasterShake
post Nov 21 2017, 08:43 AM
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QUOTE (porter @ Nov 21 2017, 10:44 AM) *
Do not talk to VCR about this subject. You will end up with an incredible system and will get no work done. He helped design our home AV system. Pornhub is so lifelike now!!!


LOL
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JanDaMan
post Nov 21 2017, 10:24 AM
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I was so hesitant about posting about speakers on a Lambo forum, but glad I did. You guys are so good because you know just what I am talking about. This makes me so happy, but makes the wife so aggravated since I am more the analytical type and she is the type of "just buy it now!" I just don't want a new system that sounds like a tin can on the end of a string even if I crank the volume. In my wifes 1985 300D I got a whole new stereo system in there a couple years ago from an auto audio shop, and am just so disappointed every time I drive that car and turn that thing on. Just tin can sound on low volume and just louder tin can sound turning the volume up even if I try more base. Talked to the stereo guys about it and they still didn't get it. In respect to that thing, I now think it needs an amp connected like in my old RX7.

All your posts made me begin learning and researching more about the home system subject, such as plus and minuses of "receivers", "pre amps", "amps", "integrated amps" along with speakers. Looks like my next step is to think about my needs and go to that local audio shop and learn & listen to what they have. I was so disappointed with my current system after loosing my Sherwood function that I went to Costco and bought a Marshal Action speaker as a temporary fix. I Bluetooth youtube music to it through my Ipad and also Bluetooth it from the TV to play cox cable music. Anyway things got a little more complex because now I have a bigscreen Samsung and would be fun to run that through some speakers too.

Below is my funky set up where about all that is real useful and satisfaction producing is the small $130 Marshal Action unit. What is nice about this set up is that the big infinity fit nice in the cabinet below the TV, so I would just need to work on rearranging things if I get the tall type of speakers they make now.

IMG_1233 by JanDaMan, on Flickr
IMG_1235 by JanDaMan, on Flickr
IMG_1236 by JanDaMan, on Flickr
IMG_1237 by JanDaMan, on Flickr


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VCR
post Nov 21 2017, 12:20 PM
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QUOTE (porter @ Nov 21 2017, 07:44 AM) *
Do not talk to VCR about this subject. You will end up with an incredible system and will get no work done. He helped design our home AV system. Pornhub is so lifelike now!!!


lol.gif lol.gif Glad I could help Ninja-san!



JanDaMan, thanks for the follow-up post, much clearer now.

First off, regret to say, your Infinity's are done; at least one of them. Look at the midrange unit --- the speaker in the middle. All the foam suspension for the cone had disintegrated. Basically, the midrange unit, where most of the music takes place, is gone. You may get some treble out of it and that's it. You would have the highs and the lows but where all the meat is, it's missing. It is possible to re-foam/re-core that unit but a) you need to find someone who really knows what he is doing and use the correct materials for the repair; and b ) is the cost worthwhile as it will be labour-intensive. You can try to find a replacement unit but I doubt it is made any more and so-called new-old-stock is likely just as old so the foam likely wouldn't last that long either. Your call really but I think they had served their purposes for a good number of years and it's time to let them go. If you decide to repair them, then simply buy a Rotel integrated amp and assuming the Infinity's are repaired properly, you should be happy with the sound.

You have a few other options: As afore-mentioned, get a Rotel integrated amp and a pair of Paradigms and you should be quite happy. Try the Paradigm Prestige 85F or 95F. They should sound similar to your Infinity. You can swap the Paradigm with the B&W and you would have a more sophisticated sound but it likely would have less "thump" that you prefer. B&W's are not design to "rock" so to speak and they are not as efficient as the Infinity and the Paradigm. And if you choose B&W, then a Rotel amp is almost a must as the 2 brands go well together and Rotel is robust enough to supply the power the B&W's need. Try the B&W CM8 or CM9 S2. Choose the Rotel integrated amp that has the function that you want and that fits your budget. You can connect your cable box to the Rotel and have music/sound coming out of your Infinty or new speakers.

The other option: you mentioned about integrating your big screen TV. If that is the case, the most economical way is to keep your Pioneer receiver and buy a home theater speaker set. I.e. 8 speakers altogether. Don't let the numbers scare you; it's actually a lot easier than you think. Get a pair of Paradigm Monitor 7 or 9 v7 as the main left & right speakers; one Monitor Center 1 v7 as the center speaker; and 4 Atom Monitor v7 as your side and rear surround speakers. Lastly, get the Monitor SUB 10 subwoofer and you will be set. These would all connect to your Pioneer AV receiver nicely. Your challenge would be the WAF --- wife acceptance factor icon_mrgreen.gif. It takes some space to get a basic home theatre going; you may need to re-orient some furniture as basically you will need to place the speakers in a circle or ellipse to get the right surround sound experience. And don't forget the wiring requirement for the speakers as well. So WAF plays a role and do you want to go through all that fuss? Assuming you pass through the WAF and don't mind the wiring fuss, the Pioneer isn't bad but if you want the latest and the greatest (since your speakers will be new anyway), you can explore on getting a better AV receiver. Anthem would be my first choice (they integrate seamlessly with the Paradigm's) followed by Rotel, Integra and then Marantz.

Perhaps I am getting a bit esoteric here but you need to be aware that music speakers and home theatre speakers are really two difference beasts. Music speakers are for...well...music. They should sing and reproduce music accurately. HT speakers are mainly for effects (the best centre speaker should reproduce human voice accurately too); i.e. the booms, bangs, whooshes, twangs, thumps etc... Hardly any speaker can do well for both and those that can would be $$$$. So you need the take your pick or have a compromise. Yes, you can get higher quality speakers that can fundamentally do both but they won't excel at either category either. And at that point, you will need to upgrade you amps into separate components; not sure if you want to take that route yet. Unless you dislike the tonal signature of the Paradigm's, you really cannot go wrong with the Monitor series. I have chosen the middle of the series for your L, C , R & sub speakers. You can go one model up if you have a bigger room or one model down if you have a smaller room. The Atom Monitors for surround sound will fit regardless of room sizes. If you choose the B&W's, I think the 600 series is sufficient. You can chose the proper sizes that fit your room. Please note that bigger isn't better in this case as the speakers react with your room Selecting bigger speakers than required will actually backfire. And subwoofer placement with require experimenting to get the best out of it. I have suggested those brands and models based on the website you listed as I don't think you want to run around several shops. And it will be nice to assemble an entire system at one place so you can do your auditions and make your decisions. Lastly, as rmtn said, do not get con into buying so-called esoteric wiring. For what you have, currently or the recommendations above, any oxygen-free copper (OFC) wiring would do. Better or more precious/exotic metals would yield better sound but the price is non-linear and goes up exponentially. Some are also packaged to resemble garden hose or thicker so the WAF may be a factor. Regular OFC interconnects would do. For speaker wires, any OFC wire in 12 to 8 gauge is plenty sufficient for your needs. And do not put speakers inside your cabinet please; not even the Infinity. The speakers themselves are already in a box; why do you want to add another box to that? Put them outside of your cabinet away from it and at least 3 feet away from the closest wall behind them. Slightly toe-in the speakers towards where you sit and you will be amazed how much of an improvement the sound would be.

P.S. Car stereo isn't my forte; that's Fellippe's department. But on your wife's 300D, when you change the stereo, did you/they check the speakers too and did you check them recently? If they sound like a tin can on a string, chances are one or more of the speakers are suffering from cone separation as well --- the same thing that happened to your Infinity. Perhaps you need to make a quick inspection?
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JanDaMan
post Nov 21 2017, 09:12 PM
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Thanks for all the detail, that helps a lot. As far as home theater considering TV, that is because I play some music from the TV cox cable channels. However I now do that via TV Bluetooth to that small Marshall speaker. I would assume that with an integrated amp I would be able to somehow TV Bluetooth to an Integrated amp so that the TV sound comes through whatever new speakers I get. But maybe that's a wrong assumption. This would be nice, but not the main priority. As far as regular TV channels (non music stuff), I just use the speakers in the TV. So true home theater isn't that important to me if the downside of such a unit is lower quality.

My main usage and desire is music either CD from my player or Bluetooth youtube music from my IPad, and from reading all the advise here it seems the integrated amp and good speakers are in order. Then I can move that small Marshall speaker to my patio to use when outside.

My next step is to make some notes from the recommendations here and get to that audio store and hear some samples. I am so excited from the help here, I can't wait to go. But I had a colonoscopy and 5 days later am still screwed up from the Versed & Demerol. I know "too much information", but that's why I am not in that audio store right now.


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VCR
post Nov 21 2017, 10:26 PM
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^You are welcome. smile.gif
I am quite sure that either of the Rotel A14 or A12 integrated amp has built-in Bluetooth reception so you are good to go. I am equally sure that a Bluetooth dongle (an optional accessory) can be added to the Yamaha A-S701 or the A-S801 integrated amp to achieve wireless reception. The Marantz I am not sure, I think only their network players and their AV amps/receivers have Bluetooth capability; but not their integrated amps; at least not yet. Not a 100% sure though.

Take care and wishing you to be ship-shaped again very soon.
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Fellippe
post Nov 21 2017, 11:23 PM
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Tinny sound from a car system?

Assuming it's not an actual wiring/equipment deficiency, what you could be referring to is an overabundance of treble/midrange suckout caused by an overly bright tweeter/too much treble boost and/or a high pass crossover on your woofers set too high.

Typically in aftermarket systems in order to make them loud and play hard with a sub, the woofers in your doors are filtered in the 80-100 hertz range (sometimes higher). This means that the filter is removing a majority of the frequencies below that point so the speaker can play with less stress. The higher the frequency chosen, the less bass/midbass you will hear. The idea is that the subs will pick up the bass, but the reality is that you lose "fullness" in your sound when you do this.

It's noticeable even with a subwoofer, and without one it would be brutal.

Depending on your setup, anything from no high pass crossover, up to 60-80 hertz would be ideal. If you don't have a sub you should go without a high pass crossover. And you should install an amp if you don't have one.

My very first ever car system, the shop high passed my 5.25" woofers around 200-300 hz, with my bandpass subs crossed maybe at 80 hz. Nice big gap over there....system had absolutely no midbass and I was still a big newb so I had the treble setting cranked to +3 or +4 (cringeworthy tuning!). lol.gif

It didn't matter in the beginning because the low end pounding novelty was fun. But even then I could tell something was wrong.

So yeah, I once asked on a separate forum about 15 years ago, "Why is my system so trebley?".

Since you say you haven't added an amplifier it's doubtful it might be this, but if you had an aftermarket head unit with built in crossovers, it could be filtered.

Shouldn't be a difficult fix IMO. I'd recommend a good amplifier, run the speakers without any high pass crossovers, and make sure the door install is sufficient (i.e. solid mounting of speaker to door baffle, maybe add some sound deadening like Dynamat).

Also check the treble and bass settings. I'd start with both at the neutral (0) position, and go backwards (negative) for treble and leave bass alone.

Curious what speakers you are using?
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Rawr
post Nov 22 2017, 09:04 AM
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VCR what was that $1500 standalone system(all in one) you recommended awhile back? Still like it, or prefer something else now?

Also, any recommendations for something portable?


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