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JanDaMan
post Nov 26 2017, 02:56 PM
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Thanks VCR & Fellippe. Yes at some point I would like to make it south to La Jolla to hear a nice system in person. Plus as VCR suggests maybe that local shop could hook up his Rotel RA-1570 to his Paradigm 75 since the Rotel is just about 25 feet from the Paradigm on the other side of the room. But for right now I got my old EPI hooked up through my garage sale Pioneer receiver and it sounds so damn good. But being 30+ years old I suspect the EPI will eventually give out like the Infinity did. I'm surprised that over the numerous drunkin college years of cranking Van Halen with that system I have not blown those EPI already too. However one thing I found is that the Pioneer receiver doesn't have Bluetooth, but it does have a port for my iPhone where I can plug that in for youtube music. The EPI are still in my computer room and garage now, so I will eventually move them to the living room to see if I can live with this set up for a bit. If it sounds ok in the living room I may look into costs to repair the Infinity too because it would still be nice to have the second set back in the computer room and garage or just put all 4 in the living room. Those EPI sound so good I actually wouldn't mind another set of those. Maybe I am just used to the old school box type speakers, but this sure sounds better than the set up I heard in the shop yesterday. But as mentioned it looks like that set up was not ideal.

That Pioneer system is pretty complex in my opinion, the company trying to do so many things with the Receiver. I am not the type that does well with 100+ pages of instructions: https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/StaticFi...uctions0128.pdf



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pockmark
post Nov 26 2017, 05:29 PM
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Just a suggestion if you want something simple and decent sound for not too much coin.

For my family room, I added some SONOS gear (Soundbar + Subwoofer) and for my needs-they do a great job.


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VCR
post Nov 26 2017, 07:02 PM
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JanDaMan, too bad your Pioneer AV receiver is the VSX-1019 and not the 1020 because the “20” series would be Bluetooth compatible; you buy a dongle, connect it to the receiver and it’s good to go. Oh well...

All modern AV receivers try to do everything but walk the dog. With the advent of digital, the connectivity and versatility of an audio/video hub machine exploded. Hence my recommendation to you on an integrated amp instead; nice and simple amplification circuitry; almost plug-and-play.
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JanDaMan
post Nov 26 2017, 09:33 PM
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QUOTE (VCR @ Nov 26 2017, 07:02 PM) *
JanDaMan, too bad your Pioneer AV receiver is the VSX-1019 and not the 1020 because the “20” series would be Bluetooth compatible; you buy a dongle, connect it to the receiver and it’s good to go. Oh well...

All modern AV receivers try to do everything but walk the dog. With the advent of digital, the connectivity and versatility of an audio/video hub machine exploded. Hence my recommendation to you on an integrated amp instead; nice and simple amplification circuitry; almost plug-and-play.


Yes when I am ready to hear what is mostly suggested here in a store I believe I will definitely go with an integrated amp. I bet that Rotel is great hooked up and I sure would like the simplicity. But one more question, as I mentioned in my old Mazda RX7 amp/equalizer under the car seat I loved that thing. Any thoughts about using an equalizer in a home system. I am just thinking it may be beneficial for tweaking a bit more than just standard + or - bass & treble?


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VCR
post Nov 26 2017, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE (JanDaMan @ Nov 26 2017, 09:33 PM) *
Any thoughts about using an equalizer in a home system. I am just thinking it may be beneficial for tweaking a bit more than just standard + or - bass & treble?


Well, equalizer in a home system is actually a thing of the pass. And from the perspective of pure hi-fi, treble and bass adjustment are a bit of a no no. But it's your system so you should do whatever you like to tailor it to your taste. 2 challenges though:

1) You are going to have a hard time finding a new EQ for sale at any stereo shop. As above-said, EQ's are a thing of the pass. Most new ones don't come in "physical form" anymore; they are in "software form" so you will need a PC for it. I don't think you want to go that route. I suppose you can try garage sale, eBay and Kijiji to pick one up.

2) Being an "integrated" amp, the Rotel or any amp in this genre combines a pre-amp and a power amp together in one box. If you were to install an EQ, it would go in between the pre-amp and the power amp. Some integrated amp has a "pre-out" output circuit so you can connect it to a standalone power amp in the future should you decide to go separate. Some would also have a "pre-in" input circuit for those who prefer to use the power amp section of the integrated amp only. If the Rotel has both the pre-in and pre-out jacks, you are in business. Unfortunately, it does not. The Rotel only has a pre-out output and no pre-in input so it's not possible to add an EQ into it.

Since the EQ works in the analogue domain and the Rotel has built-in Bluetooth reception. You cannot put the EQ in between the Bluetooth component and the Rotel either. If you are using CD or DVD player, you can put the EQ in between the CD/DVD player and the integrated amp but only if you choose to use the analogue output of the CD/DVD player. But it would likely be more beneficial to use the CD/DVD digital output and connect that to the Rotel's built-in DAC for better sound quality.

Hope this isn't too confusing for you.
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Rawr
post Nov 27 2017, 07:48 PM
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VCR thanks, man that thing looks great, I wish I could hear it somewhere in person. (i'm in barcelona if you have ideas?) Yes for portable I was talking about something like that Sony speaker. But wow at the price! Is there a clear winner for like $100-300 range? Sonos was making big waves a few years ago.


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VCR
post Nov 28 2017, 12:10 AM
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QUOTE (Rawr @ Nov 27 2017, 07:48 PM) *
VCR thanks, man that thing looks great, I wish I could hear it somewhere in person. (i'm in barcelona if you have ideas?) Yes for portable I was talking about something like that Sony speaker. But wow at the price! Is there a clear winner for like $100-300 range? Sonos was making big waves a few years ago.


You are welcome.
Naim is an UK brand so its product should be available at the higher-end electronics shops throughout Europe.
Due to the physical limitations of the speakers, there really aren’t many choices for the “portables”. When one is at the $300 mark, IMO, one is better off with headphones. Not earbuds but full-size headphones that cover one’s ears. Just take note that neither the speaker nor the headphones will be tonally correct in terms of imaging and soundstage presentation. If you insist of potable Bluetooth speakers, Ultimate Ears are ok. For headphones, both Sennheisers and Grado’s are fine. Select the models that fit your budget and taste. The S and the G have very different tonal signatures; choose the brand that fits your own preference.

Was never and still am not much of a Sonos fan. Convenience, yes; good sounding, barely made the grade IMO. Good packaging & marketing though.
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Rawr
post Nov 28 2017, 08:12 AM
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QUOTE (VCR @ Nov 28 2017, 09:10 AM) *
You are welcome.
Naim is an UK brand so its product should be available at the higher-end electronics shops throughout Europe.
Due to the physical limitations of the speakers, there really aren’t many choices for the “portables”. When one is at the $300 mark, IMO, one is better off with headphones. Not earbuds but full-size headphones that cover one’s ears. Just take note that neither the speaker nor the headphones will be tonally correct in terms of imaging and soundstage presentation. If you insist of potable Bluetooth speakers, Ultimate Ears are ok. For headphones, both Sennheisers and Grado’s are fine. Select the models that fit your budget and taste. The S and the G have very different tonal signatures; choose the brand that fits your own preference.

Was never and still am not much of a Sonos fan. Convenience, yes; good sounding, barely made the grade IMO. Good packaging & marketing though.


Yes Sonos suddenly was in every millenial-techy podcast as a sponsor, that should say something. As far as headphones,why are over the ears so much better than earbuds, or is it not by much? I've bought these last year, and they are incredible with the bass range. They blew 2 pairs of Senhs out of the water https://www.amazon.com/Sony-MDRXB50AP-Extra...t/dp/B00JRD13T8 I can't believe they cost this little actually. They are heavy in the ear though.


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VCR
post Nov 28 2017, 03:12 PM
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QUOTE (Rawr @ Nov 28 2017, 08:12 AM) *
As far as headphones,why are over the ears so much better than earbuds, or is it not by much? I've bought these last year, and they are incredible with the bass range. They blew 2 pairs of Senhs out of the water


I'm about to say something that might not sit well with some here:

Neither headphones nor earbuds are sonically correct as far as soundstage goes, i.e. width, depth & height of the music and, at times, the size of the musical instrument and/or the voice of the singer. The "image" takes place on top of the listener's head in a compressed/constricted way and that's just wrong. Some of the modern esoteric-grade headphones from Sennheiser, Ultrasone and AKG are starting to offer more correct soundstage due to advancement in materials and designs but compare to speakers, they are still a far cry. Earbuds are worse because they fit inside of the ear and they create a seal between itself and the listener. There just isn't room for alternative or better design. Unless they start playing with time-delay circuitry (which there won't be space for it unless one carries a outboard processor; and even at that, where does it get the power from?); there should not be much change in the foreseeable future. Earphones were invented for the purpose of sound isolation where the listening environment is challenged. They were never meant for anything else. The Sony Walkman took down that rule and started the "personal hi-fi" era which is still going strong today. Earbuds were an evolution and arose from technology and materials advancement. But neither are correct. Think about it, if headphones are correct, why do we need speakers? Why can't we just have a box that essentially houses 3 or 4 headphone amps and the listener(s) can just plug in the cans and enjoy the tunes. Heck, each may even choose their own brand of cans with its own tonal signature so you will have 4 people listening to the same tune simultaneously but with 4 different tones in a relatively small environment. So obvious, there is something that cans and buds simply cannot reproduce or replace.

Some prefer earbuds because the "seal" or isolation from ambient noise is better. Portability also plays a role. But in truth, earbuds are seldom tonally correct. Most are exaggerated and imbalance. Plenty put emphasis on the bass. And there is this huge misconception that heavy & strong bass is good. Sensation-wise, yes, it's simple psychology that we follow a pleasing rhythm. But that does not mean it is sonically balanced and correct. Go to a jazz club or something as simple as watching a school band perform and one would understand what live music is like and how different recorded music is. Even better and more obvious when one plays a musical instrument. Just because it has a better-defined bass or there is more "ummph" to it does not mean it is better.
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Fellippe
post Nov 29 2017, 05:02 AM
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Headphones:

Quality listening on the go, and also when you cannot listen to proper system (i.e. late at night).

Earbuds have their place for commuting types in the big cities, and proper large headphones whether you are using them on an airplane or with an amplifier in a home have their place as well.

The key here IMO is not to spend big $$ on these items. You can get pretty good earbuds around $100, and headphones anywhere between $50- few hundred.

It's just like car audio. Keeping the party going no matter where you go. icon_pidu.gif

For headphones to be the flagship audio gear, that's just not ideal.
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sprite
post Nov 29 2017, 05:51 AM
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QUOTE (VCR @ Nov 28 2017, 07:12 PM) *
I'm about to say something that might not sit well with some here:

Neither headphones nor earbuds are sonically correct as far as soundstage goes, i.e. width, depth & height of the music and, at times, the size of the musical instrument and/or the voice of the singer. The "image" takes place on top of the listener's head in a compressed/constricted way and that's just wrong. Some of the modern esoteric-grade headphones from Sennheiser, Ultrasone and AKG are starting to offer more correct soundstage due to advancement in materials and designs but compare to speakers, they are still a far cry. Earbuds are worse because they fit inside of the ear and they create a seal between itself and the listener. There just isn't room for alternative or better design. Unless they start playing with time-delay circuitry (which there won't be space for it unless one carries a outboard processor; and even at that, where does it get the power from?); there should not be much change in the foreseeable future. Earphones were invented for the purpose of sound isolation where the listening environment is challenged. They were never meant for anything else. The Sony Walkman took down that rule and started the "personal hi-fi" era which is still going strong today. Earbuds were an evolution and arose from technology and materials advancement. But neither are correct. Think about it, if headphones are correct, why do we need speakers? Why can't we just have a box that essentially houses 3 or 4 headphone amps and the listener(s) can just plug in the cans and enjoy the tunes. Heck, each may even choose their own brand of cans with its own tonal signature so you will have 4 people listening to the same tune simultaneously but with 4 different tones in a relatively small environment. So obvious, there is something that cans and buds simply cannot reproduce or replace.

Some prefer earbuds because the "seal" or isolation from ambient noise is better. Portability also plays a role. But in truth, earbuds are seldom tonally correct. Most are exaggerated and imbalance. Plenty put emphasis on the bass. And there is this huge misconception that heavy & strong bass is good. Sensation-wise, yes, it's simple psychology that we follow a pleasing rhythm. But that does not mean it is sonically balanced and correct. Go to a jazz club or something as simple as watching a school band perform and one would understand what live music is like and how different recorded music is. Even better and more obvious when one plays a musical instrument. Just because it has a better-defined bass or there is more "ummph" to it does not mean it is better.


I'm no audiophile but I have two headphones setup I use:

Setup 1) Sennheiser HDVD800 Amp + Sennheiser HD800 Heaphones
Setup 2) Cambridge Audio DAC Magic + Woo Audio WA6 + Sennheiser HD650 Headphones

For some reason I actually prefer the sound of setup #2 (sounds a lot warmer to me), I'm guessing setup #1 is more accurate? Is the difference in sound I'm hearing mostly from tube amp vs solid state? I've spent a lot more time listening with setup #2, so maybe I'm more conditioned to the sound of it and I will start liking setup #1 better if I use it more?


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SV-N-IT
post Nov 29 2017, 06:34 AM
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I use a full surround Polk setup in my theater, sonos bar/sub in most rooms and apple airpods for gym/travel.
not the best sound available but does the trick for me.


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Fellippe
post Nov 29 2017, 07:34 AM
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PE


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QUOTE (Rawr @ Nov 28 2017, 11:12 AM) *
Yes Sonos suddenly was in every millenial-techy podcast as a sponsor, that should say something. As far as headphones,why are over the ears so much better than earbuds, or is it not by much? I've bought these last year, and they are incredible with the bass range. They blew 2 pairs of Senhs out of the water https://www.amazon.com/Sony-MDRXB50AP-Extra...t/dp/B00JRD13T8 I can't believe they cost this little actually. They are heavy in the ear though.


Yeah, concur with VCR here.

It's actually somewhat easier to get a driving midbass from good earbuds than headphones (not in all cases, esp. if you hook up headphones to an amp). My Shure SE115 has more midbass than any of the proper headphones I've owned, comparing them all unamplified. The efficiency is noticeably greater too with the earbuds, so that could be playing a role too.

But overall nor the bass nor midrange sound as full. The "stage", and sense of air while not great on standard headphones is way better than earbuds, simply due to the massive size difference.

Earbuds can sound good but never as good as good proper headphones, in the pure sound quality sense. I will take good earbuds over BEATS any day of the week.

If it's just EDM or other hard hitting music then maybe it can be considered better, unless you get headphones biased for deep bass.
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Fellippe
post Nov 29 2017, 07:42 AM
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QUOTE (sprite @ Nov 29 2017, 08:51 AM) *
I'm no audiophile but I have two headphones setup I use:

Setup 1) Sennheiser HDVD800 Amp + Sennheiser HD800 Heaphones
Setup 2) Cambridge Audio DAC Magic + Woo Audio WA6 + Sennheiser HD650 Headphones

For some reason I actually prefer the sound of setup #2 (sounds a lot warmer to me), I'm guessing setup #1 is more accurate? Is the difference in sound I'm hearing mostly from tube amp vs solid state? I've spent a lot more time listening with setup #2, so maybe I'm more conditioned to the sound of it and I will start liking setup #1 better if I use it more?


If you think #2 is a lot warmer than #1 then that is a good sign for you. Just based off the fact that you are running a decent dedicated DAC plus the 650s being warmer than the 800 (IMO), the Sennheiser amp will have its work cut out for it against the Woo.

"Warm" is usually defined as being more full in the midrange and rolled off somewhat at the top end. It feels like it has more "body", relaxed, less listening fatigue.

I never get caught up into accuracy or detail. Just figure it's an overrated characteristic to focus on (even more overrated than 0-60 or lap times), and I don't submit to the idea that just because something is warm or smooth that it is not accurate, or not as accurate as something else.

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Fellippe
post Nov 29 2017, 08:10 AM
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QUOTE (VCR @ Nov 28 2017, 03:10 AM) *
Was never and still am not much of a Sonos fan. Convenience, yes; good sounding, barely made the grade IMO. Good packaging & marketing though.


You talking the Sonos systems used as a package system, or Sonos as a digital input run through a high end DAC?





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VCR
post Nov 29 2017, 11:45 AM
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QUOTE (Fellippe @ Nov 29 2017, 08:10 AM) *
You talking the Sonos systems used as a package system, or Sonos as a digital input run through a high end DAC?


Frankly, I am inclined to say both. But I can see the rationale on Sonos being the "decipher/transport" feeding a good DAC to yield a marginal improvement. I tried that with a Chord Hugo DAC awhile back and while the improvement is noticeable, it really isn't night & day. I also highly doubt anyone who chooses Sonos would go through the trouble of adding a standalone hi-end DAC to the chain (you & I might be the only exception; that is if we ever go with Sonos. smile.gif )

Agree with the cans & buds' purpose is to keep the tunes and party going. There are quality buds out there with decent sound quality and some are better than the average cans. But those, IMO, are getting ludicrously expensive and they are not exactly built to last either. I have the Shure SE535 that I use for short-haul flights.
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VCR
post Nov 29 2017, 12:24 PM
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QUOTE (sprite @ Nov 29 2017, 05:51 AM) *
I'm no audiophile but I have two headphones setup I use:

Setup 1) Sennheiser HDVD800 Amp + Sennheiser HD800 Heaphones
Setup 2) Cambridge Audio DAC Magic + Woo Audio WA6 + Sennheiser HD650 Headphones

For some reason I actually prefer the sound of setup #2 (sounds a lot warmer to me), I'm guessing setup #1 is more accurate? Is the difference in sound I'm hearing mostly from tube amp vs solid state? I've spent a lot more time listening with setup #2, so maybe I'm more conditioned to the sound of it and I will start liking setup #1 better if I use it more?


Yes, sprite, I recall you asked me on those.
As Fellippe said, the HD800 emphasizes on high definition. It is definitely more "hi-fi" but the HD650 is actually closer to what real music sounds like. In an A vs. B comparison using direct plug-in to say a CD player with headphone jack, the 800 will win over the 650 on just about every criteria: better dynamics & better definition etc... But, for the exact reasons, one will result in hearing fatique sooner from the 800. The same applies to the newer HD800S and the HDV820. It's almost "too hi-fi" and doesn't sound real! I do give it credit for having a more correct soundstage than most headphones though. The 650 is warmer sounding as you and Fellippe had said and thus is the better cans for extended use. The HDVD800 is no comparison to the Cambridge or should I say their criteria is different. Again, definition vs. real sounding. The Woo would likely add further warmth to the sound.

You have asked one of the greatest debate in the hi-fi world: tube vs. solid state. In a nutshell & very general terms, SS is "faster" sounding with better definition and dynamics. Tube has more realistic with more "meat" and better warmth to the sound. Yes, tube is more euphonic and some see it as more "coloured". But if it sounds more "right" to the actual thing, then I would consider that a better choice. Have you tried connecting the 800 to the Woo + Cambridge? Theoretically, that might be the ideal combo that has it all.
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VCR
post Nov 29 2017, 12:28 PM
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QUOTE (SV-N-IT @ Nov 29 2017, 06:34 AM) *
I use a full surround Polk setup in my theater, sonos bar/sub in most rooms and apple airpods for gym/travel.
not the best sound available but does the trick for me.


And that's what really counts. So long as you are satisfied with them; since they are your systems, all is well. icon_thumleft.gif
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Gandalf the gray
post Nov 30 2017, 05:48 AM
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Probably not exactly what the OP is thinking but i built my AV room last winter using Klipsch Reference series in an 11 channel Dolby Atmos surround system. There are a pair of SVS SB2000 12" subs and a pair of SVS PC13 Ultra's. I'm using a Marantz SR-7010 receiver and 3 external amps. Sounds pretty good.
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Gandalf the gray
post Nov 30 2017, 07:01 AM
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Can't upload a second pic to save my life. Weird.
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