johnmh

Suspension rose joint question

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A countach is a beautiful thing, basically a beautiful delicate body over a 1970s Can Am car chassis. Neato.

 

The suspension is also a thing to behold. Well engineered and executed, it was built to cope with incredible stresses. After 26 years of service (ok only 20,000 km) the joints which make the suspension of this wonderous thing may be tired. Or not.

 

As I have polled the sages of the world (Chad and the nice people at Evans A) there does not seem to be a supplier of replacement rose and other joints for a Countach other than Lamborghini. I am beginning to suspect that these eyelet joints are made specifically for only this car, and in a very special and secure place. One which expects about $8500 for a complete set...

 

Does anyone know where equivalents to these special dimension 14mm rose joints may be sold?

 

On the basis that nobody does, the next question is how you can tell of they are bad. Sure they look kind of grimy when they come off the car, but a minute in the parts washer and the factory paint marks come back. They look pretty good.

 

The eyelets move, but with some stiffness and a little notchiness. A bit like me in the morning.

 

As for the rubber encased cylindrical joints which connect the trailing arms to the frame of the car, they are quite stiff. Is this normal?

 

Cheers to all and thanks to those who can enlighten me.

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I would love to replace all my upper and lower ball joints and tierods etc

Ijust think it'll be expensive.

Right?

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My next door neighbor, has two engineering degrees. He has a very sophisticated works, that produces all kinds of custom fabricated metal. If you want to send me some pics, I can ask if they can be fabricated for much less money. The company produces all kinds of sophisticated one of a kind metal products, that are made to order - they do not stock products. Quality ? Whatever you want !

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Today I picked 2 random joints, cleaned them in the parts cleaner and checked them for smoothness. There is only some slight notchiness, but I was thinkning about cleaning them with solvent, soaking them in oil, then blowing some bearing grease into them somehow. Still, I feel that this is a cop out. Some parts are not salvageable, once you remove them, they are gone.

 

Spacers may be the right idea. Chad can get some race car fabricated ones which are close. If he could get the spacers too....

 

 

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you guys need to pm Joe Frazar (JFRAZAR) .

 

i will ask him to post, but he owns several successful business.

 

he may have a new found solution for this, as he is going to be going through his Countach's suspension soon.

 

 

perhaps he can get a kit together.

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Today I picked 2 random joints, cleaned them in the parts cleaner and checked them for smoothness. There is only some slight notchiness, but I was thinkning about cleaning them with solvent, soaking them in oil, then blowing some bearing grease into them somehow. Still, I feel that this is a cop out. Some parts are not salvageable, once you remove them, they are gone.

 

Spacers may be the right idea. Chad can get some race car fabricated ones which are close. If he could get the spacers too....

 

I replaced about 10 suspension pieces this winter...mix of heim-joints & front stabilizer bushings. Got my parts from GT in Arizona. Correct method of testing heim-joints...lift wheels off the ground, 1 person under car inspecting each joint for movement while a second person rocks tire (top & bottom, then side to side) any movement indicates wear with this type joint. Minimal movement is acceptable, I replaced mine when the movement was approx. 3/16 inch or more. Hope this helps.

Jeff

 

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I am currently cross ref all the parts.

 

I have successfully completed this for my Urraco.

 

Currently I think that the front bulk head joints are Alfa Romeo Upper ball joints - Don't quote me on this. I will let you know when I have completed and installed all on my car. I did go ahead and order them though - They look just like them when I had my car on the lift last.

 

For the Rose joints as Lamborghini calls them I have 2 solutions I am working on. 1 is replace all joints and rods with Domestic circle track suspension parts. These will all be standard thread ect. The idea came from one of my mechanics that races on the dirt tracks. He gave me a catalog from a company called Day Motorsports. You can buy all the rods in any length you want. All this is great but I would prefer Metric joints and stock rods.

 

I have found a supplier who just started carrying metric joints - I went ahead and orderd one of each of the factory joints to get a good look at these things in as new condition. This way I can mic them and compare to a new joint. I will share with everyone what works and what does not.

 

Anyone have any other ideas.

 

Joe Frazar

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If by "rose joints" you are referring to what some of us call Heim joints. then there are a multitude of options to choose from in the market place. If there is not one listed for your application, perusing the specification listings of these joints down at your local bearing supplier will zero you in, even if a few mods need to be done.

 

The mounting bolt size can be drilled/reamed out to the size needed. The tubular mounting thread can be bushed for a smaller rod or drilled ant tapped for a larger one. Just takes a very small bit of ingenuity to make it work.

 

Your local bearing supplier, then your trusted machinist, will be all you need to make your suspension whole.

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I would like to see somebody drill/ream the inner ball on a rod/heim joint. That is a piece of hardened steel, and how would you hold it still to do that????

 

I already have found rod ends that will work. The problem is the threaded end is about 1/2 in shorter than the original and the width of the ball end is about 1/2 in thinner than the original. I already have spacer made to use them in my car.

 

I am at this time working on finding the original maker of these items.

I have been searching for the maker for several years and finally think I have a maybe lead as to who it is.

Chadbourn Bolles

 

 

The mounting bolt size can be drilled/reamed out to the size needed. The tubular mounting thread can be bushed for a smaller rod or drilled ant tapped for a larger one. Just takes a very small bit of ingenuity to make it work.

 

Your local bearing supplier, then your trusted machinist, will be all you need to make your suspension whole.

 

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I would like to see somebody drill/ream the inner ball on a rod/heim joint. That is a piece of hardened steel, and how would you hold it still to do that????

 

I already have found rod ends that will work. The problem is the threaded end is about 1/2 in shorter than the original and the width of the ball end is about 1/2 in thinner than the original. I already have spacer made to use them in my car.

 

I am at this time working on finding the original maker of these items.

I have been searching for the maker for several years and finally think I have a maybe lead as to who it is.

Chadbourn Bolles

The mounting bolt size can be drilled/reamed out to the size needed. The tubular mounting thread can be bushed for a smaller rod or drilled ant tapped for a larger one. Just takes a very small bit of ingenuity to make it work.

 

Your local bearing supplier, then your trusted machinist, will be all you need to make your suspension whole.

 

 

 

I was not refering to modifying the inner diameter of the hardened ball, and I agree it would be difficult to drill or ream to a different size. I think you misundertood what I was saying. I was refering to the threaded mounting end that screws onto the control arm.

 

Yet it is quite feasable to modify the diameter of the heim joint's ball. Advances in cutter technology allow high speed machining or the more conventional grinding solution when dealing with hardened materials. Also, if the correct "general specs" of the heim end are fairly close, a machined bushing or thin wall insert can correct the discrepancy and make the joint usable. Any hole diameter can be increased or reduced, any thread size can be altered somewhat, as long as their is enough "meat" in the original part to allow the modifications. Any skilled machinist could easily clamp the ball tight in order to allow such an alteration.

 

I'm not speaking out of line here, as my shop is filled with mills, lathes. and grinding machines. All I was trying to say was that you can find a standard dimensioned part that comes close to the ideal, do some modifications, and the problem is solved.

 

I'm sorry I was not clearer in what I was attempting to say in my previous post. If I had been clearer, I suppose this post would not be needed. And all would have been well.

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Well, first the good news. I have started going through all the various joints in the suspension and once the collected petrified grease and crud is cleaned out, most of them seem pretty sound. All I need now is a way to get some fresh grease in (under pressure?). I may have to replace 4-5 joints, but that is much better than all of them. Even better, the "pot" joints which connect the trailing arms to the frame seem smooth and tight, so that is another almost $1000 saved.

 

I have taken a series of pictures of the joint in question with the micrometer on it, so I can post something for a possible guide. On my other laptop though.

 

The biggest issues I have found are that the joints are too narrow (there are flanges on the ball) which might be solveable with some spacers, however the off the shelf stuff is pretty short and needs to thread further into the suspension rod. See www.fluro.de For an example, check out item GARSW14R.

 

Now that that crisis in averted, anyone know of a good place to buy vintage NOS air conditioning components for a Countach? The bottom fitting is torn on the evaporator unit...

 

The bad news? I went to look at a damaged LP640 today, but the car was unfortunately beyond salvage.

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Just to follow up, here are some dimensions on the most common type of joint. Note on the GARSW14R the width of the ball at the hole is 19mm and the length of the threaded portion is 38mm. On the original part the width and thread length is approximately 30 and 50mm, respectively. As these things do live with some stress, more threads holding the joint in the suspension arm is a good thing. As for the width, I guess some 5mm spacers could be made up. For reference the GARSW14R item from Fluro is 38 pounds sterling, while the OEM item is 129 pounds sterling from Eurospares. As I have yet to hold the Fluro item in my hands, I am assuming that the 14mm thread pitch is the same.

129.JPG

135.JPG

137.JPG

GARSW14Druck.jpg

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There is no reason to try and modify the ball end, as I have joints that are the correct dia., just not the correct width, or the threaded end not the correct length.

I am making suspenion tubes that are longer to account for the shorter length. I also have made spacers to make up for the width.

Chadbourn Bolles

 

Yet it is quite feasable to modify the diameter of the heim joint's ball. Advances in cutter technology allow high speed machining or the more conventional grinding solution when dealing with hardened materials. Also, if the correct "general specs" of the heim end are fairly close, a machined bushing or thin wall insert can correct the discrepancy and make the joint usable. Any hole diameter can be increased or reduced, any thread size can be altered somewhat, as long as their is enough "meat" in the original part to allow the modifications. Any skilled machinist could easily clamp the ball tight in order to allow such an alteration.

 

 

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John,

 

Call Chuck Darrow at Rod Ends Mechanical in Mississauga (you do still remember us in Canada). He is a vintage racing guy and carries all kinds of rod ends and can get just about anything including metric stuff. His website is: www.rod-ends.com A really good bunch of guys over there. Good luck with the project.

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John,

 

Call Chuck Darrow at Rod Ends Mechanical in Mississauga (you do still remember us in Canada). He is a vintage racing guy and carries all kinds of rod ends and can get just about anything including metric stuff. His website is: www.rod-ends.com A really good bunch of guys over there. Good luck with the project.

 

Many thanks! Still have the 308? I may be sending my LP400S back home when the LP5000S is done (next year?). Might see it at Rocco's.

 

 

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I will have all these suspension joints in stock in 2-4 weeks. I too was shocked at the cost of these from Lamborghini & felt that their prices were just madness. I have no issues paying top dollar for a one off or unique item, but a rose joint - heim joint isn't really all that rare, except for the Countach i guess. So, i sent a set of them away to one of our suppliers and ordered 300 sets.

 

I will have these part #'s available in 2-4 weeks:

 

005109558 rear ball joint $69.99 each Lamborghini list price $319.50

005209535 lower heim joint $59.99 Lamborghini list price $241.75

005209538 upper heim joint $59.99 Lamborghini list price $241.75

 

These will be identical to the original, same thread and pitch, same length and all other dimensions.

 

You can order as many or as little as you need.

 

We don't need payment until i am ready to ship them to you, just a simple "i'll take xyz" will suffice.

 

 

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Damn, my box just arrived from Eurospares.... can you get the huge inboard ones on the front suspension? Part no 005109521?

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Please reserve the following for me:

 

8 - #005109558

8 - #005209535

6 - #005209538

 

As johnmh indicated above, I would also be interested in 4 - #005109521 and 2 - #005109532 as well.

 

Thank You.

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We ended up going a new route, decided to make the full kits available, listed below is what we ended up having manufactured.

 

Who wants in?

 

$2299.99 per kit includes both front & rears, as well as all washers and nuts.

 

We can still offer individual items if needed.

 

suspension_joints_for_customrs.htm

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Show pictures of joints and washers>

 

 

 

We ended up going a new route, decided to make the full kits available, listed below is what we ended up having manufactured.

 

Who wants in?

 

$2299.99 per kit includes both front & rears, as well as all washers and nuts.

 

We can still offer individual items if needed.

 

suspension_joints_for_customrs.htm

 

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Chad,

 

As soon as i get them from the manufacturer, that will be done. I will have part #'s:

 

#005109558

#005209535

#005209538

 

In stock in about 1 week, the rest are still a ways off, hence no pictures yet.

Is this something you have an interest in?

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