Klassens FAIL on Murci Fri night

I'm amazed at what little other damage there is. The caliper and the fender look like they're unharmed.

 

 

Interesting and scary. Also nice to see the activity from the manufacturers side.

 

Not same case but I recently smacked fairly well a similiar designed wheel on a curb and even if the lip got "slightly" bent, the spokes themselves seem atleast visually to be ok. (Will get new wheels)This was a relatively cheap german wheel that has seen abuse, winter, salt etc (as you can see in the pics)

 

Glad your safe and wish all the best to get the car back on the road!

Glad to read you're okay after something like this. The outcome could have easily been far worse so it sounds like you did all the right things to manage the car.

 

I'm not a fan of after market wheels because of the risks and typical lack of adequate testing at very high speeds for a specific make and model. I can't imagine there is enough money in wheels to justify the expense of testing at the same factory levels. Lamborghini spends huge dollars testing their wheels to prevent failures and given how fast I've driven my car, it's one area I don't want to worry about. (You should see the damage a beetle did to my clear mask somewhere above 150!) Yea, some after market wheels look decent, but why risk it? We had a long thread going about wheels this past spring and it was a really interesting read.

Mistakes happen ,parts fail, and no one is perfect. Its how a company handles an issue when something goes wrong that seperates the good from the bad and it sounds like they have even exceeded your expectations to get the problem resolved, thats always good to hear!

I agree with "emanon" thats a good looking wheel but a fragile design with alot of weight riding on it, I'm curious how many other wheels of that design are out there and for how long?

 

While in most instances I agree with your first two sentences, I have to disagree completely in this case. I think it a bit cavalier to say that "mistakes happen, parts fail" when this particular "failure" could have easily taken the OP's life. We are not talking about a shifter linkage, a bushing, etc... 80 mph and loosing a wheel completely is pretty damn near terminal velocity. I don't know if his or anyone else's driving skill level would have made a difference, he was LUCKY!

 

As for the statement that these are used wheels, I am not sure that is 100% accurate, here is why... He bought the wheels, at least from what I have read here, from Alex at SP. If I am not mistaken he is a reseller of this particular brand, or at least was at one time. He had them on his personal car and to me that would constitute a "demo" set of wheels that would in my mind, coming from a reseller of the particular brand, furnish me with the same warranty as a new set would as I would be prone to assume he always had them mounted and installed and pressure maintained properly. I am sure that there is some argument there, but I would think that Klassen would absolutely warranty them as long as there were no mitigating factors such as pressure, painting/powdercoating or incorrect torque values on the lugs or a plain old pothole in the road.

 

I for one am sincerely glad things turned out the way that they did. Thank God Sean is ok. As for Klassen taking care of the wheels, well, kudos for that but I would expect nothing less personally. Making him whole for his damaged car would be making it closer to right in my mind. I have no doubt they will step up and rectify the situation, I hope that they contact all their clients and resellers and have them get in touch with the end users on that particular model and have them take the wheels in to have them checked.

Glad to read you're okay after something like this. The outcome could have easily been far worse so it sounds like you did all the right things to manage the car.

 

I'm not a fan of after market wheels because of the risks and typical lack of adequate testing at very high speeds for a specific make and model. I can't imagine there is enough money in wheels to justify the expense of testing at the same factory levels. Lamborghini spends huge dollars testing their wheels to prevent failures and given how fast I've driven my car, it's one area I don't want to worry about. (You should see the damage a beetle did to my clear mask somewhere above 150!) Yea, some after market wheels look decent, but why risk it? We had a long thread going about wheels this past spring and it was a really interesting read.

Actually, Lamborghini does not test their wheels, they have wheel manufacturers do the testing.... If you will notice that once Audi took over, you can see one piece and two piece wheels only for Lamborghini. These were majority cast or flow formed aluminum wheels, which are heavy as hell.. It is not until the murcie sv and the lp superleggera that forged wheels are used. Many aftermarket wheels contract the same wheel manufacturers that do O.E business with car makers. The standards are the same in terms of durability. In fact, wheel manufacturer that makes viper wheels also forges for other brands... Thats not to say there are not wheel brands that dont do testing, but do check with the company on what standards they adhere to. Simple as that...

Wow, I had no idea that there are wheels out there that are not tested properly for the vehicle, good to know! Glad the OP is okay!

 

We had a long thread going about wheels this past spring and it was a really interesting read.

 

Was wondering if you had the title of this thread, I would like to read it.

Wow, I had no idea that there are wheels out there that are not tested properly for the vehicle, good to know! Glad the OP is okay!

 

 

 

Was wondering if you had the title of this thread, I would like to read it.

 

 

http://www.lambopower.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=46961

 

Just for kicks, I modeled up two exact wheels (same size, offset, material, etc) one with straight spokes, the other with the curved dish.

 

Same force and anchor points on each wheel. This is very basic and just to show the force distribution around the wheel and visualizing the stress risers which come from the curved spoke design.

 

Note: The scale on the deformed shapes. The curved spoke scale is 144, where on the straight spokes it's 4,945. Solidworks exagerates the deformation because many times it's too small to see if 1:1, but the von Mises and Yeild Strength numbers tell it all.

 

FWIW, when doing the calculations, the straight spoke wheel came out essentially 23x stronger.

 

Note: This is just for comparison sake, i'm not analyzing the wheels in question as I don't know anything about their design properties. Just merely showing how the deep curve on the spokes great effects the load capacity of the wheels and will inevitably lead to a quicker failure due to fatigue.

 

Essentially by introducing the curve, you are relying on the bending strength of the material. Where with the straight spokes it's all in tension and compression.

 

This leads back to a simple example, try to bend a paperclip in your fingers. It's very easily deformed in any direction. Now grab it and try to pull it apart, into two separate pieces. This is why the lightest wheels use vertical spokes as it allows them to use the least amount of material and retain the proper strength.

 

Now please, can we stop bringing up the torquing of the bloody bolts, it didn't have a damn thing to do with this wheel failure.

Just for kicks, I modeled up two exact wheels (same size, offset, material, etc) one with straight spokes, the other with the curved dish.

 

Same force and anchor points on each wheel. This is very basic and just to show the force distribution around the wheel and visualizing the stress risers which come from the curved spoke design.

 

Note: The scale on the deformed shapes. The curved spoke scale is 144, where on the straight spokes it's 4,945. Solidworks exagerates the deformation because many times it's too small to see if 1:1, but the von Mises and Yeild Strength numbers tell it all.

 

FWIW, when doing the calculations, the straight spoke wheel came out essentially 23x stronger.

 

Note: This is just for comparison sake, i'm not analyzing the wheels in question as I don't know anything about their design properties. Just merely showing how the deep curve on the spokes great effects the load capacity of the wheels and will inevitably lead to a quicker failure due to fatigue.

 

Essentially by introducing the curve, you are relying on the bending strength of the material. Where with the straight spokes it's all in tension and compression.

 

This leads back to a simple example, try to bend a paperclip in your fingers. It's very easily deformed in any direction. Now grab it and try to pull it apart, into two separate pieces. This is why the lightest wheels use vertical spokes as it allows them to use the least amount of material and retain the proper strength.

 

Now please, can we stop bringing up the torquing of the bloody bolts, it didn't have a damn thing to do with this wheel failure.

 

 

Thats taking it to a new level rite there dude! Thats awesome! We were talking about this at my shop last night but I had no way to show it as well as you just did, the curved spoke allows it to have a deeper lip but sacrifices strength at the same time and then to have a cast center section with an offset like that.

Charlie you made a comment about hitting a curb with yours and it still held up, your GFG's had a machined center section with 5 straight spokes, its the arch in the center section with cast metal that killed that wheel.

I dont know emanon, I dont know the guy that owns the car, or anyone at Klassen so I'm not bias in either direction its just techy dork science that emanon and I are trying to show, Im glad the guy that owns the car is ok and the wheel didnt fly off cause there have been a few races where wheels have flown off into crowds and killed people! The people at Klassen sound like a class act for handling it the way they did!

Speeking of Charlie and wheels remember when you had a blow out at 150mph due to a cut valve stem from improper install by the company you bought your wheels from and they just blew you off! Its just good its all being handled

These aftermarket wheel companies that do not build the wheels to standards, how/why do they even do this? Wouldn't they be afraid of a lawsuit if the wheel fails...?

Just for kicks, I modeled up two exact wheels (same size, offset, material, etc) one with straight spokes, the other with the curved dish.

 

Same force and anchor points on each wheel. This is very basic and just to show the force distribution around the wheel and visualizing the stress risers which come from the curved spoke design.

 

Note: The scale on the deformed shapes. The curved spoke scale is 144, where on the straight spokes it's 4,945. Solidworks exagerates the deformation because many times it's too small to see if 1:1, but the von Mises and Yeild Strength numbers tell it all.

 

FWIW, when doing the calculations, the straight spoke wheel came out essentially 23x stronger.

 

Note: This is just for comparison sake, i'm not analyzing the wheels in question as I don't know anything about their design properties. Just merely showing how the deep curve on the spokes great effects the load capacity of the wheels and will inevitably lead to a quicker failure due to fatigue.

 

Essentially by introducing the curve, you are relying on the bending strength of the material. Where with the straight spokes it's all in tension and compression.

 

This leads back to a simple example, try to bend a paperclip in your fingers. It's very easily deformed in any direction. Now grab it and try to pull it apart, into two separate pieces. This is why the lightest wheels use vertical spokes as it allows them to use the least amount of material and retain the proper strength.

 

Now please, can we stop bringing up the torquing of the bloody bolts, it didn't have a damn thing to do with this wheel failure.

 

 

So in your opinion, the majority of the bowed profile designs have a higher failure rate (depending on design of course) as opposed to "standard" or non-bowed designs?

So in your opinion, the majority of the bowed profile designs have a higher failure rate (depending on design of course) as opposed to "standard" or non-bowed designs?

 

Failure rate is a case by case basis issue and greatly depends on the design and materials involved with each wheel. You could properly brace the backside of a curved spoke wheel (providing you had caliper clearance) and make it very strong. But with a curve you will ALWAYS be giving up strength and/or adding weight compared to a straight design.

 

There are many wheel companies that make these curved spoke designs and with some proper testing I'm sure they could be built to last tens of thousands of miles. Plus obviously a lot depends on how aggressive the profile of the curve is, weight of the car, size of the wheel, blah blah blah.

 

It does all boil down to the experience of the engineer and how much you trust the company and their testing procedures. How many companies do you think put their wheels through 40 Million cycles to simulate the revolutions over say a 50k mile lifespan?

 

I know it sounds like a well, no shit statement, but the further you push the limit, the more you really need to know what you're doing so things don't get fucked up. It takes more than the bankroll to buy a CNC machine and a couple solidworks classes to be a wheel designer, at least if you don't want them to fail. Now I'm not implying that any part of this previous statement applies to any wheel mfg currently out there, just sayin.

 

A few of us spend a lot of $$ and a lot of time in school to be able to look at something and say with confidence if it will survive the test or not. And even then we occasionally miss things, that why you work on a "Safety Factor" so you're not on the ragged edge of failure all the time.

 

But at the end of the day, as I posted with the simulations. Given the exact same front profile, the straight spoke design will be significantly stronger in comparison.

 

Note: By Straight Spokes, I'm referring to their orientation in relation to the mounting plane. On a radial basis they can split in Y or V sections like a traditional BBS wheel and remain extremely strong, because fundamentally you're still working with straight spokes in compression/tension and constant triangulation.

Emanon, you are 110% correct. And the testing certification lies with the wheel manufacturers to test (and pass) the wheels based on the PCD and application. The problem in SOCAL occurred a few years ago when the testing facility (GOAL Testing in El Monte) was sold and equipment moved out of the area. It was very easy to have wheels cut and then hand carried to the test facility to have checked in the past, but if you want them tested now, you have to send the wheels to Mid America and await the results (i.e. an inconvenience). Most forged wheel manufacturers do not have FEA (Finite Element Analysis) software available so they go with the, "yeah looks good to me" approach and deal with it when it becomes a problem. Since most people change wheels (or cars) every year or so, their usually is not a problem as the wheels manufacturers only offer the warranty to the original purchaser and for 1 year. If you take wheels wheels apart to paint or modify, then you void the warranty. In this case Im glad to hear that Frank is stepping up to take care of the member here and I'm sure he will make it right.

these curves on the wheel spokes are a direct result of consumer demand... A straight spoke will yield a smaller lip on the wheel. Consumers want super big lip... And in this day and age of wide track high offset no lip applications for cars, manufacturers are forced to resort to these turtle looking designs. Of course with proper engineering, there should be no problems, however, if a billet or casted piece has some inherent microscopic cracks, you are out of luck....

Guys, those centers are not bent in...they are straight/flat BEFORE the accident. I think the spokes did that AFTER they cracked. Look at the images when the wheels were for sale on this site and when they were on the LP640. When these wheels were for sale they were in perfect shape with no issues on the LP. I was seriously considering buying those wheels. Can someone look up these wheels and post a before image?

Actually, Lamborghini does not test their wheels, they have wheel manufacturers do the testing.... If you will notice that once Audi took over, you can see one piece and two piece wheels only for Lamborghini. These were majority cast or flow formed aluminum wheels, which are heavy as hell.. It is not until the murcie sv and the lp superleggera that forged wheels are used. Many aftermarket wheels contract the same wheel manufacturers that do O.E business with car makers. The standards are the same in terms of durability. In fact, wheel manufacturer that makes viper wheels also forges for other brands... Thats not to say there are not wheel brands that dont do testing, but do check with the company on what standards they adhere to. Simple as that...

 

I was in Italy, I had dinner with the individual who does the testing. He explained some of the protocols. Lamborghini does some rather extensive testing.

I looked at the the first page of images and you can easily see the spokes were straight, they are bent in thus the space now from the hub to the broken spokes. What really amazes me that if this happened at speed then why isn't the brake calipers scratched, why is the points where the breaks happened just look perfect with no other scratches around them from the broken spokes hitting the hub while the hub is spinning from the speed (80 mph) and the wheels are obviously spinning from the pavement. Just appears the break happened with no movement of the wheel - not a scratch on anything that I can see????

 

 

Brian, my tire blowout was at about 80mph, not 150...if it happened at 150 I honestly do not think I would have saved the car nor would probably be alive. At 80 mph with just the left rear blow out I was coasting to a stop and had to keep counter steering from 10-2 with the steering wheel until I got under 40 mph where the car finally settled down and drove straight. Karting definitely helped me handle this tire issue at speed. I am sure other people would have over corrected with the wheel at that speed and would have had big problems fast. Was not a fun experience. Remind you this was just a tire blowout for me.

 

 

I was in Italy, I had dinner with the individual who does the testing. He explained some of the protocols. Lamborghini does some rather extensive testing.

The parameters are set forth by the manufacturer and tested by the wheel manufacturer. There are no specialized equipment that could do a proper fatigue testing at the factory. O.E suppliers are required to provide test results to automakers indicative of them achieving performance parameters. An independent testing facility contracted by the factory then verifies the test conducted by the wheel manufacturer... Perhaps the person you talked to is the independent lab or liason that works with the lab.... But Lamborghini itself does not do it.. Many parts for auto makers are not tested in house because when you are dealing with so many different parts, having the equipment, and time to test it simply would be too cost prohibitive.

The parameters are set forth by the manufacturer and tested by the wheel manufacturer. There are no specialized equipment that could do a proper fatigue testing at the factory. O.E suppliers are required to provide test results to automakers indicative of them achieving performance parameters. An independent testing facility contracted by the factory then verifies the test conducted by the wheel manufacturer... Perhaps the person you talked to is the independent lab or liason that works with the lab.... But Lamborghini itself does not do it.. Many parts for auto makers are not tested in house because when you are dealing with so many different parts, having the equipment, and time to test it simply would be too cost prohibitive.

 

I believe Speedline makes most of the wheels for Lambo......

I believe Speedline makes most of the wheels for Lambo......

No longer the case. It used to be between speedline and OZ. But because now Lamborghini has access to a supplier base from Audi, they are not limited to those manufacturers...

The parameters are set forth by the manufacturer and tested by the wheel manufacturer. There are no specialized equipment that could do a proper fatigue testing at the factory. O.E suppliers are required to provide test results to automakers indicative of them achieving performance parameters. An independent testing facility contracted by the factory then verifies the test conducted by the wheel manufacturer... Perhaps the person you talked to is the independent lab or liason that works with the lab.... But Lamborghini itself does not do it.. Many parts for auto makers are not tested in house because when you are dealing with so many different parts, having the equipment, and time to test it simply would be too cost prohibitive.

 

Beyond that, it is generally frowned upon to site in-house testing. In the case of parts where failure is essentially mission critical, you generally like to have disinterested 3rd parties doing the testing just for the arms length legitimacy.

 

That being said I can see how thorough wheel testing is very intensive and does require some serious resources.

 

 

Charlie - Did you find those pictures? If those were originally straight-spoke wheels or with a very minimal curve, then that changes things dramatically. I would start seriously checking into the starting platform which they were machined from (a forged for cast block) etc. My gut feeling is still siding with the design elements.

 

 

After all this, I would love at some point to get my hands on the failed specimen and extensively analyze it.

2: how'd it feel? I felt a slight vibration from the rear of the car - almost Luke uneven pavement - and started to move from the lane to smooth out the ride.. Then a load bang, the RR dropped, kicked out, I countersteered, slowly backed out of throttle and got the car to shoulder. It felt like my RR wheel had all of a sudden become a piece of steel. Control was limited, but I didn't panic and tried to keep the cars attitude correct till I could get it off the freeway and stopped.

 

When I got out, I expected the entire RR pf the car to be gone...

 

ahhhhh, it sounds like, and i can kinda see from the pics, that once all the spokes broke free, the steel brake rotor dropped and was riding on the inside of the barrel, it looks like the inner barrel has a lot of paint removed and there is dust everywhere. This would have felt like the RR wheel became a piece of steel. This could explain why the whole wheel didn't escape from the wheel well. With the inside of the wheel and tyre loaded up from the friction with the rotor and weight from the car, the tyre would have been trying to steer itself into the wheel well rather that out. I'd also imagine in this situation a carbon-ceramic rotor may have disintegrated. With the free wheel trying to steer in, the broken spokes interferred with the centre of the wheel still mounted to the hub of the car. This interference bent the spokes but prevented the tyre and barrel from moving too far inside the wheel well and thus preventing further damage.

 

 

Probably a best case scenario in the case of a rear wheel failure.

Emanon's study is indeed impressive.

 

However, even without this wealth of info, this looks like a case of very simple physics.

 

Deep dish wheels = ones with a deep lip = more leverage on the mounting bolts. Why? Because the center of gravity is now not in the spatial center of the wheel volume. Any bit of leverage on the outside edge of a deep dish wheel is exagerated by a longer distance from the outside edge to the point where spokes start. Any tap on this edge causes leverage against the spokes. This could be uneveness of the road surface, or some other larger obstacle like a curb. The deeper the dish, the greater the leverage, the more chance of damage. To illustrate this point, think of your Snap On tools. The longer the breaker bar, the more leverage it can exert on a stubborn nut. Same principle. Leverage.

 

Now, the loose wheel bolts. Plausible. Why? Because of the deep dish of course. Why? Because if the wheel is really loose and starts dancing around, it goes out of parallel with the direction of motion (horizontally or vertically), and twists against the spokes and studs (i.e. applies leverage) which can break the spokes. The deeper the dish, the more the wheel is stressed at a given lug nut "looseness".

 

Really simple physics. You can tell, all other factors like composition material being equal, which wheel is more likely to have problems just by looking at the design.

 

FYI: My walk down the isle at SEMA or flipping through Dupont Registry, shows hundreds of wheel manufacturers, and many are tiny boutique style. I do not buy it for a second that the small ones do adequate wheel tests. Maybe not all large ones either. They have too many wheel designs. Thousands of them in total. The OEMs must and do. Hence you are likely categorically safer on OEM wheels than aftermarket.

 

I am going to enjoy my long weekend. You do the same!

No longer the case. It used to be between speedline and OZ. But because now Lamborghini has access to a supplier base from Audi, they are not limited to those manufacturers...

The LP670 SV wheels are made by Alcoa.

I do not get it. Just what exactly do we expect Klassen to say or do, to make the OP feel better?

 

Great that they will pay for ALL the damage, as they rightly should, IF the wheel was indeed defective, and not run into a kurb sideways, or otherwise damaged by the driver, which OP say they were not. Or not heat stressed via powdercoating, or some other trauma during disassembly by previous owner. ie. dropping, reassembly hammering to fit, etc. Nobody will ever know....

 

But no matter the lip service form the manufacturer, I would not trust this model of Klassen wheel again after seeing this. Their fault or not. Too big a risk on this wheel design. Very unfortunate for the manufacturer that this happened to them. I sympathize. With safety items like this, you only need to make one mistake to make a bad impression. And I agree with JR, all the wheels are now suspect, Magnaflux or not, so they are all garbage.

 

Is the OP really going to trust another set of these model of wheels on their Lambo? Will be very interesting to find out. Keep us posted.....

 

And one other thing. Wrong torqueing or loose wheel nuts could cause this failure, but only if the wheel was very loose on the axle and wobbling around. That can crack a wheel.

 

Was it assumed above correctly that the OP stopped the car with the wheel in the wheel well? They never said whether they did or not. Due to the damage, I am guessing the wheel parted company with the car, but was only put back for the photo.

 

I am undecided as to whether or not to put KLASSENS back on the car... They appear to still be undecided as to how they are going to handle it.. The wheels were picked up from Lamborghini Miami today... So they wont arrive in California until next week and the repairs to the car will be complete by Wednesday. All wheels were returned.

 

There was no wobbling or anything unusual until 3 to 4 seconds before the failure - it felt like slighty rough pavement.. then BAM. I did get the car off tp the side of the highway with the wheel still in the well. The photos I posted were taken with my Iphone on the side of the freeway on the flatbed. If the wheel had come out of the well, the car would have significantly more damage (and probably more damage to myself as well).

 

And somebody mentioned tire pressure - 39psi front, 40 rear. Brand new P Zero Rossos.