Aftermarket wheel failure - Just saw this

This kind of stuff scares the $hit out of me especially at the crazy speeds we go. i kept my factory wheels on my CGT and it makes me feel a little more comfortable. im sure there is two sides to this kind of story. BTW im having my wheels checked tomorrow just to be safe.

 

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?/t...cracked-wheels/

This is why I stay stock. Not to say the stock wheels won't or don't fail, for me personally, it's a comfort level.

i think it can happen to any wheel, but this def raises awareness.

Sucks for ADV.1 in the PR department, but could happen to any wheelmaker.

Wheres that pic where a MURCI's wheels cracked in half on the freeway in Miami?

 

it was first posted on lambopower a couple years ago..

Stock wheels usually look better anyway.

 

Any wheel can have a defect, though I'm guessing major manufacturers are less likely than someone like ADV. However, I'd rather be on OEM wheels when one fail$...

just saw this on nag, which was i guess off m3 post. ADV.1 Tony posted it so i thought i'd post their response here:

 

""Guys, I appreciate everyone's concern in this matter and you all are absolutely correct in saying that this is a major issue that is absolutely unacceptable. My own wife drives around every single day with the same 22" Step Lip rim halves along with my 4 year old and 1 year old baby boys in the back seat. Nothing in the world other than my family matters to and I'm sure that most of you feel exactly the same way. With that being said I was obviously very concerned when I first heard about the issue which was in mid 2011 on order number 1897, 22" ADV08 Track Spec's for a Mercedes ML63 AMG. At that time, the issue had never been seen and obviously we discussed the cause in detail with Mike at Triangle, our engineer, and multiple others to identify the issue and ensure that it's not repeated. At that time, the final verdict from Mike at Triangle was that the issue was due to an issue related to machining / engineering and not the inner barrel. Regardless we obviously checked every last detail on the file and physically checked the center discs themselves to confirm that this was the case which we actually had hoped it was as this is something internal that we can identify and correct ourselves and easily see if any other sets shared the issue. After doing so, we were unable to verify that this was the case as everything was exactly as it should have been. Mike then, replaced the parts for us at no cost, we finished and assembled the set with new hardware as always and advised our dealer of the issue in detail as they explained previously that the vehicle was driven aggressively and could have potentially been the cause in which case moving forward they would be driving under only normal conditions and would report to us if any problems occurred. At the time, no one really knew what the cause was so it was up in the air with possible causes ranging from chrome plating to improper use and several others. Mike did provide us with a detailed statement outlining what was his opinion on the cause which nowaym3 is referring to as he most likely was working at Triangle at the time and was aware of this. Regardless, what he or she is saying is true and was the case at that time.

 

 

Moving forward a few months, after keeping tabs on the first issue on the ML63 set and confirming that the issue seemed to have been solved we basically had nothing else to review as there was no final confirmation as to what caused the issue and no identifiable reasons to change anything moving forward as everything was engineered to spec and physically confirmed. I can assure you guys, even though many of you seem to have a preconceived opinion about me which is perfectly ok however this business isn't made for short term success, my own family and the families of nearly 20 of our staff depend on this company and treat it like their own. With this being said, ignoring an issue like this which could potentially cause a huge impact on any company if not resolved it was in not only my own interest to make sure that it's not going to happen again but everyone on ADV.1 staff, Triangle staff and MHT's staff. These are not issues that are ignored and had it been something that potentially could have recurred all parties involved would have stopped production on the affected parts until the issue was resolved. Many of you make comments as if we build all of our wheels with no regard to safety or quality which as you all know if were true we wouldn't be in business right now. Some of those who seem eager to offer their expertise on this matter jump at the opportunity to point out such an issue, although we all appreciate the information it's obvious that pointing this information out is in their best interest. Once again, perfectly fine - nothing we haven't dealt with in the past. I can see how something like this would be amazing news to any of our competitors unfortunately, but not surprisingly.

 

Had this been the end of the issue, the statements made by nowaym3 may have been valid however this person may not be involved with the more recent activity in this matter which arose in 2012. Order 2169, ordered for a BMW x6M in 22" ADV5.0 Track Spec configuration was reported to have the same issue. Upon learning about this issue personally on Feb 13, 2012 I contacted the client directly to get the details, apologize and get this issue resolved once and for all. I immediately had the wheels picked up and shipped to our facility in CA. I booked a flight the same day and was in the shop to inspect them once they arrived. At that time myself and some of our production related staff took the wheels to Mike ourselves in order to resolve and identify the issue once and for all. Around the same time, this particular order in question (1797) was also reported and was discussed. By that time it was clear that there were no issues with the center discs themselves, no engineering similarities that could have linked the 3 sets to the issue, they were used in different widths and offsets from low to high and on 3 different vehicles so all signs pointed to the one possible factor that they all had in common which was the inner barrel, all of which was the same size (22x7.5 and 22x8 inners) all 3 orders were confirmed to have these inners delivered around the same time frame and Mike himself confirmed that these parts were an older style step lip which was no longer used and also was a possible batch of parts which may have been outsourced to another vendor for the heat treating process which was not the usual protocol for reasons I'm not aware of.

 

 

With this all being said, the issues are clearly apparent. They are identified, isolated and resolved. The issue is clearly an unforeseen case of only 12 parts out of literally thousands that have been used not only by ADV.1 but by any 3 piece wheel manufacturer who buys 22" step lip parts. We will continue to support Triangle and work with them on a daily basis not only to improve but also because those who know are well aware that there are no better parts that can be found anywhere in the world and this is why we use them as do other high quality wheel brands.

 

 

In regards to Eugene's issues with communication and service from ADV.1, I have no argument here. I completely agree with you and apologize for this and I assure you the issue has not gone unnoticed and the sales rep involved has also expressed his apologies. Regardless, you're right and had I been aware of the issue directly I would have been extremely involved personally as I was and still am on the other 2 cases which both customers can confirm I'm sure. In any case, it doesn't matter at this point - you're not satisfied with your service and there's nothing more to it. All I can do is offer you one of 2 things should you wish to accept, one being a full refund on these wheels which you may choose to keep them if you would like or leave them here, either way is ok or alternatively although I doubt you'd like to have another set of our wheels due to the circumstance, I will offer you a free set of your choice - applicable to any car, any style, any finish, any time. "

Every single wheel manufacturer is going to have an issue here or there over thousands of sets of wheels manufactured regardless if it's HRE,ADV,Dymag...nothing is perfect and the more and more that are made with each set the odds increase that eventually a set might have an issue. People and manufacturing processes aren't 100% perfect ever and different factors and road conditions can contribute as well. Sucks when it happens,and you can only hope nobodies hurt when it does.

Robster, you are 100% correct. Tony and the ADV.1 guys are top notch. I've talked with them several times on special projects and even knowing I was not going to order wheels still obliged information for my set up. I have no doubt they would buy every set back and take care of the customer in whatever way they deemed fit with no argument (within reason of course). I think the wheels are great, and I know they are quality. If the the set I have can still hold a tire on the bead it's quality. I have beat the ever loving shit out of mine and and have never had an issue.

 

Hate the 'Im scared of aftermarket wheels' thread had to cite them as the primary example. There are many more 'accurate' examples out there (like the Murci with an imploded wheel on i95.

 

Best

Dead on Rob. People like to commit the fallacy of misleading vividness (i.e., that because incident X happens to item Y, all Ys must therefore be destined for incident Xs). You do enough of anything and mistakes will occur, either through fault of the manufacturer or simply bad luck (e.g., bad material, etc.). You just have to hope no one is hurt and you correct the mistake (if any was made) and you move on.

Forget the fact that these wheels have all been driven on, who's to say how they were driven and what types of hazards they may have encountered along the way. Shit happens. Its what happens after the shit that matters, and it sounds like ADV did all they could.

While I somewhat agree with the "shit happens" part, from an engineering background it this type of instance it shouldn't.

 

My gut has a big problem with this statement

Mike then, replaced the parts for us at no cost, we finished and assembled the set with new hardware as always and advised our dealer of the issue in detail as they explained previously that the vehicle was driven aggressively and could have potentially been the cause in which case moving forward they would be driving under only normal conditions and would report to us if any problems occurred.

 

Any wheel you're willing to sell to the general public should be able to take any/all forces the vehicle could subject it to under normal conditions. Normal including aggressive on-road driving. Do I expect them to hold up on Robby Gordons trophy truck, well fcuk no, but I doubt these wheels saw more action than the potholes on mulhulland (which at some points a trophy truck wouldn't be a bad option).

 

The thing which very well could be missing is batch sampling. They might test one wheel, get it certified, and never test another wheel even though the billets are coming from different production stock. If you want to be absolutely safe, they need to test the materials from each production lot. Thats not saying each run of wheels, but each production run of hoops or billet center blanks from the mfg (be it alcoa, etc) to verify any defective materials.

 

This begs the question, how many other wheels were produced with hoops from this same supplier, produced in the same production lot that very well could be suffering the same material defects which just haven't surfaced yet. If it were my company and/or I owned a set of wheels I would want some documentation on the production lots to verify it wasn't from the defective batch.

 

 

As a for instance. City of LA Manhole Cover batch testing requirements. Can not be produced in runs exceeding 50 units. Of that 50 units, one is dedicated as a sample tested to spec. If it passes the test, it can be used for installation. If it fails, another is tested, if that one fails the whole batch is scrap. Assuming the tests are a success, one casting is permanently stamped with a production lot number/date and kept as a material backup sample incase of a failure in the field.

 

Is that a little over the top, well yeah admitted it's a wild pain in the ass. But in my experience I have yet to see a broken manhole cover and nobody has sued the city for eleventy billion dollars due to negligence, at least surrounding manhole covers.

 

If one of those wheels fails and it is deemed the cause of an accident, everyone from the retailer down to the guy who supplied the lube on the lugnuts is going to have a fleet of attorneys elbow deep in their assholes extracting that last quarter you swallowed in 1st grade.

 

Sometimes shit happens is unacceptable, this is in my opinion one of those times.

 

Disclaimer - This is my non-attorney (but extremely experienced on the production/testing side) opinion, take it for what it is.

 

While I somewhat agree with the "shit happens" part, from an engineering background it this type of instance it shouldn't.

 

My gut has a big problem with this statement

 

Any wheel you're willing to sell to the general public should be able to take any/all forces the vehicle could subject it to under normal conditions. Normal including aggressive on-road driving. Do I expect them to hold up on Robby Gordons trophy truck, well fcuk no, but I doubt these wheels saw more action than the potholes on mulhulland (which at some points a trophy truck wouldn't be a bad option).

 

The thing which very well could be missing is batch sampling. They might test one wheel, get it certified, and never test another wheel even though the billets are coming from different production stock. If you want to be absolutely safe, they need to test the materials from each production lot. Thats not saying each run of wheels, but each production run of hoops or billet center blanks from the mfg (be it alcoa, etc) to verify any defective materials.

 

This begs the question, how many other wheels were produced with hoops from this same supplier, produced in the same production lot that very well could be suffering the same material defects which just haven't surfaced yet. If it were my company and/or I owned a set of wheels I would want some documentation on the production lots to verify it wasn't from the defective batch.

 

 

As a for instance. City of LA Manhole Cover batch testing requirements. Can not be produced in runs exceeding 50 units. Of that 50 units, one is dedicated as a sample tested to spec. If it passes the test, it can be used for installation. If it fails, another is tested, if that one fails the whole batch is scrap. Assuming the tests are a success, one casting is permanently stamped with a production lot number/date and kept as a material backup sample incase of a failure in the field.

 

Is that a little over the top, well yeah admitted it's a wild pain in the ass. But in my experience I have yet to see a broken manhole cover and nobody has sued the city for eleventy billion dollars due to negligence, at least surrounding manhole covers.

 

If one of those wheels fails and it is deemed the cause of an accident, everyone from the retailer down to the guy who supplied the lube on the lugnuts is going to have a fleet of attorneys elbow deep in their assholes extracting that last quarter you swallowed in 1st grade.

 

Sometimes shit happens is unacceptable, this is in my opinion one of those times.

 

Disclaimer - This is my non-attorney (but extremely experienced on the production/testing side) opinion, take it for what it is.

 

I agree, shouldn't you expect your customers to drive aggressively especially considering the market and types of vehicles ADV is pitching too. The other thing is that generally these replacement rims are plus 1, plus 2 sizes reducing the amount of sidewall you have to protect the rim from adverse driving conditions which only compounds this issue. I have no experience personally with ADV.1 rims, however I have had a number of after market rims in the past including direct competitors of ADV.1 and I have always found them problematic. I find stock rims seem to take the day to day abuse better. That said, I like almost every design I have seen of theirs and I think the standing offer of a free set is fair.

When are they going to learn? ADV, Cors whatever 360 that is are BLING wheels. Bling bling ya know? That are not made for track/abuse application. Never were. All this small boutique wheel makers in the US flourish for a reason. American BLING culture, so why take these bling wheels to the track? Get it inside their heads man.

 

Wheels that can take punishments? Try Rays/Volk, BBS, Advans, Enkei and such. In fact I have not heard RAYS or BBS even cracking before. Mangled steel yes, crack? LOL.

 

Part of the reason why I NEVER bother with all this boutique wheel makers. Not even HRE. People need to start understand the strongest wheels are those that are 1pc wheels. Not those 2 or 3 or 4 pc wheels with mutliple nut and bolts connection sections.

 

Too much bling can really kill ya guys. I'm not hating. It just common sense.

And for those ADV supporters that say any manufacturing will have it flaws once in a while. So 1 out of 1000wheels sounds normal for such defects. Sureee....

 

How about when it kills someone? Would you fanboys say the same thing then?

 

"Oh 1 out of 1000 people that bought it got killed, sounds normal, manufacturing defect, bound to happen!" Sure....

 

Go ahead and buy it. I aint touching those wheels man. Never.

When are they going to learn? ADV, Cors whatever 360 that is are BLING wheels. Bling bling ya know? That are not made for track/abuse application. Never were.

This is incorrect - ADV sells wheels branded as "track spec".

I dont think wheels shoukd be manufactured to withstand "anything" because all people have different definitions of extreme. It's a risk you take driving on any wheel. Stock or aftermarket makes no difference. There are failures on both and likely the percentages of failures out of the total lot size are going to be close IF accurate records were kept which I doubt you woukd find on stock wheels. Saying a wheel should be able to handle anything a driver can dish out is like saying a block should be able to withstand any amount of horsepower someone can get out of the engine. There is a limit to everything.

Other details that i did not see which could have significant impact on the stress to the wheel could be whether the cars were lowered and other suspension mods. Stuff like this is bound to happen

And for those ADV supporters that say any manufacturing will have it flaws once in a while. So 1 out of 1000wheels sounds normal for such defects. Sureee....

 

How about when it kills someone? Would you fanboys say the same thing then?

 

"Oh 1 out of 1000 people that bought it got killed, sounds normal, manufacturing defect, bound to happen!" Sure....

 

Go ahead and buy it. I aint touching those wheels man. Never.

 

Are you serious? Stock tires on stock cars fail and people die. So why is this such a shock when it happens with a wheel? If you truly feel that way then you probably shouldnt drive. Nothing is 100%, even stock parts.

I dont think wheels shoukd be manufactured to withstand "anything" because all people have different definitions of extreme. It's a risk you take driving on any wheel. Stock or aftermarket makes no difference. There are failures on both and likely the percentages of failures out of the total lot size are going to be close IF accurate records were kept which I doubt you woukd find on stock wheels. Saying a wheel should be able to handle anything a driver can dish out is like saying a block should be able to withstand any amount of horsepower someone can get out of the engine. There is a limit to everything.

Other details that i did not see which could have significant impact on the stress to the wheel could be whether the cars were lowered and other suspension mods. Stuff like this is bound to happen

 

Actually, I bet if you look on the backside of cast production wheels they are marked with various serial numbers attaching them to a production lot.

 

Short of a blunt impact failure, when have you heard of a factory wheel failing?

 

If the wheels are designed for a specific vehicle they should withstand anything that vehicle in its standard configuration can dish out, and thats pretty simple to calculate based on mass, lateral acceleration, etc. Using the proper materials and engineered with a significant FOS will give you wheels that last nearly indefinitely.

 

The engine block analogy is a bit flawed as in this instance there is a finite limit to the forces that can be applied under all but blunt trauma impacts. You aren't hooking a 40' triple axle trailer to the back of an X5 and not expecting multiple failures, if you do then it's your bag when something gives up.

 

There is an "Expectation of performance" when you market products for public consumption, and at the very least in this case that a wheel intended for DOT Highway use should be designed suitably to the requirements of the vehicle. You can't drive around on a set of 11lb Bogart drag wheels and not expect them to fold up, the fcuking things are a c-hair thicker than tin foil, and they print in bolt type everywhere that these are for track use only.

 

Beyond that, in this instance the wheel failed structurally without any apparent visible deformation. That tells me this wheel was not involved in any abusive condition, blunt impacts, and so forth as even then the wheel should fold up rather than a fatigue crack.

 

When tires fail it's generally due to outside damage, and even in a total blowout is generally a controlable failure. Potentially having the hoop of your wheel separate from the center section could easily end with your head embedded in a large stationary object.

I see what you are saying, my point is that no one should expect any part of a car to never break even under the most basic of conditions. I guarantee that stock parts have done this as well. Its just not as publicized. I had an airbag go off in my old Viper sitting in a parking lot stationary. That could very well have happened two minutes later on the highway and I could have wrecked and died. Flaws are inherent in anything manufactured. It's how the manufacturer deals with it afterwards that matters to me. In this case that would be new wheels if the owner wants them, full refund if they do not, and of course research and analysis into the cause and mitigation of the failure.

Casings are inherently risky. Where is the metal from? Substandard metals are coming out of China and India these days. Any impurities in a wheel casting is deadly

Just quickly throwing this in, Volk Rays wheels actually makes OE wheels for companies like Nissan for example. If you're planning on doing some racing or hard driving, I would recommend companies like Rays engineering & BBS just as First stated.

Just quickly throwing this in, Volk Rays wheels actually makes OE wheels for companies like Nissan for example. If you're planning on doing some racing or hard driving, I would recommend companies like Rays engineering & BBS just as First stated.

i love the look of aftermarket wheels but this crap really makes you think.

 

Just quickly throwing this in, Volk Rays wheels actually makes OE wheels for companies like Nissan for example. If you're planning on doing some racing or hard driving, I would recommend companies like Rays engineering & BBS just as First stated.

 

Didn't a pair of used wheels that had been on one of Alex's cars have a major issue? I think I remember a thread like that?

Didn't a pair of used wheels that had been on one of Alex's cars have a major issue? I think I remember a thread like that?

 

I think the only major issue that Alex was complaining about was the offset! Other than that the Volk G2 that he use to have on the SuperG was perfectly fine.