And there was the Injection-prototype for sale as expected..

Arguments on all sides have been laid out. At this point the best thing it to let the market talk.

 

As far as milestone car, this is a milestone car. It affected the importation of lambos in the US.

The wolf cars also affected the countach in its form and that is a milestone too albeit bigger. One could argue that the Wolf first 400S could be considered prototype as the factory actually was involved right there.

 

Another milestone example is the last blue DD 88.5 that got sold. Nothing special really other than it was the last 88.5 DD made. Big milestone? no. But the premium has proven to be there. So denying this car its status is not quite fair. The premium value should just be set according to it.

 

This board is supposed to be helpful to owners / buyers and sellers. it is sometimes difficult because as we said before, nobody wants to see Countach owners being unreasonable in their dealing.

 

But clearly here the owner believe in what he says. He has more of the journey to go. I wish him success despite the overwhelming odds.

beating this more wont be helpful to anyone.

There are no words.....

I agree... I think you also believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy?

Such an argument... And a worthwhile one to have, truly.

 

My vantage point was pricing it as a milestone car in Lamborghini history. That which it is.

 

Let's start here...

 

The car was originally a carburetted Euro version 1982. At the least, with no history, it is worth what a nice carbbed '82 5 litre is. That being said, it is also a milestone car which at the least would command a premium.

 

My thoughts... It is the first fuel injected Lambo. That is a serious stone in the Lamboghini family tree. You must look beyond just Countachs.

 

A comparison. Let's say one could buy a late 70's 4 litre 2 valve car for 350K. Great.... It is the same basic thing as mine with a smaller engine and no history.... You say, they made less of those than the injected.... I say, really? They made less than one?

 

Look, I am not here to argue. Lord knows I have other things to do and I am sure you as well. I am only giving a look into the logic behind it. My feelings that a milestone in the Lambo family tree has value is in no way a detriment to the marque nor is it insulting to any example of that marque.

 

 

Worse comes to worse, I have a milestone Lamborghini that is a blast to drive! There is a lot to be said for having the first fuel injected Lamborghini period.

 

Thanks for all your help thus far guys. I have enjoyed learning more about our cars and have generally had a great experience.

 

Casey

It's a stone but not a serious stone.

A late 70's is a Series One LowBody. Same with smaller motor and history? Uh no. Is your car a LowBody....THAT is where the difference.....

Hey, here's a novel idea I think most would agree with: CONVERT IT BACK as it left the factory!!!!!!

Arguments on all sides have been laid out. At this point the best thing it to let the market talk.

 

As far as milestone car, this is a milestone car. It affected the importation of lambos in the US.

The wolf cars also affected the countach in its form and that is a milestone too albeit bigger. One could argue that the Wolf first 400S could be considered prototype as the factory actually was involved right there.

 

Another milestone example is the last blue DD 88.5 that got sold. Nothing special really other than it was the last 88.5 DD made. Big milestone? no. But the premium has proven to be there. So denying this car its status is not quite fair. The premium value should just be set according to it.

 

This board is supposed to be helpful to owners / buyers and sellers. it is sometimes difficult because as we said before, nobody wants to see Countach owners being unreasonable in their dealing.

 

But clearly here the owner believe in what he says. He has more of the journey to go. I wish him success despite the overwhelming odds.

beating this more wont be helpful to anyone.

It did not leave the factory like it is now. Did the factory convert this car? If yes, it has importance. If no, then it's not that important.

A carbed 5000S converted to FI worths less than a carbed one: everyone knows it, so stop wasting time, please...

 

May be Blowndoaytona silver FI 5000S is an excellent car: if this is true and converted back to carbs, may worth 200-220 K USD, if perfect and mint. Otherwise can worth 150-170 K USD (perfect FI), or 100-120 K USD (average FI, average does not mean bad car, but "just" good).

 

I learned that if you want to increase your car condition in every single piece, may be 100 K USD are not enough, so better pay best cars their value.

 

So, Blowndaytona, i think you had better to publicize cars condition rather than the FI.

 

But you can obviously ask even 1 million, the problem is you can only sell it to somebody that comes from Mars!

 

ciao

 

It did not leave the factory like it is now. Did the factory convert this car? If yes, it has importance. If no, then it's not that important.

 

From what I got over time, it is less black and white. In short Jas and Thomas got the interest of the factory who basically took their work to base their own FI system for export. So even if the factory did not release that car as an FI and did not put this FI in it, the factory did participate and used that car. Records have it that the car went back to the factory as an FI. In short you may say that the factory outsourced the FI work, establishing a strong link with the will of the factory.

In contrast none of the Wallace TT cars got any sort of interest from the factory. Form what I know even Wallace was not eager to do this and Joe may elaborate. He was willing to cash in the money and that is all.

Most europeans, especially writters of books dont like the FI because they see it as a"bastardized version" of the carb car for commecial purposes. So there has been little said for a long time about it and what was said has never been very positive.

 

The owner should then focus particularily on the actions with evidences of the factory acting upon this work. This fact cannot just be swept under the rug. that said, appreciating this fact will take a special buyer who goes just beyond liking Countaches and will be more valuable to a US guy than a Eruopean guy who will dislike the FI anyway. May be a Japanese will bite. I realize that the japanese comunity , despite all the strange add-onns on cars, has a core of well informed collectors and have snapped lots of good cars. Of course I am saying this outside of the current price consideration

 

 

A comparison. Let's say one could buy a late 70's 4 litre 2 valve car for 350K. Great.... It is the same basic thing as mine with a smaller engine and no history.... You say, they made less of those than the injected.... I say, really? They made less than one?

Casey

 

Casey,

sorry, but it is not the same car...

 

a late 70's 4000 car could be an LP400 or LP400S (series 1)

both cars are actually different from your 5000S FI (expecially the LP400 does not even look similar with its thin body and wheels)

body, engine....even the interior of the LP400 and the S is quite a bit different !

 

there is no such a thing as the "regular countach", with a bit of time you would find all the differences btw the countach variants (it is actually quite interesting to see the amount of versions built by lamborghini in 15 years of production and how many things changed with time)

 

 

kepp in mind LP 400 or LP400S are not the BEST countach in every single aspect, but there are reasons why the LP400 is by far the most expensive version of countach with LP400S series 1 following it

A carbed 5000S converted to FI worths less than a carbed one: everyone knows it, so stop wasting time, please...

 

May be Blowndoaytona silver FI 5000S is an excellent car: if this is true and converted back to carbs, may worth 200-220 K USD, if perfect and mint. Otherwise can worth 150-170 K USD (perfect FI), or 100-120 K USD (average FI, average does not mean bad car, but "just" good).

 

I learned that if you want to increase your car condition in every single piece, may be 100 K USD are not enough, so better pay best cars their value.

 

So, Blowndaytona, i think you had better to publicize cars condition rather than the FI.

 

But you can obviously ask even 1 million, the problem is you can only sell it to somebody that comes from Mars!

 

ciao

 

 

What are you talking about ???

What are you talking about ???

 

 

I belive Albert had a daytona/chaparall-name-mixup there:)

The very idea that the car is worth low 100's is very shortsighted.

 

Are you saying you paid more than that a few months ago when you bought it? Because I hightly doubt it.

What are you talking about ???

 

 

sorry!!

I belive Albert had a daytona/chaparall-name-mixup there:)

 

yes, he had!

 

I'm getting old, i'm sorry.

 

Mine posts were intended for the "FI prototype" owner, of course.

 

ciao

 

 

 

I think I heard the last transaction of this " rare prototype FI " car was $105,000. So it's jumping more than 3-fold. How this guy thinks he bought a $320,000 for $105,000 makes no sense to anyone.

How this guy thinks he bought a $320,000 for $105,000 makes no sense to anyone.

 

I'll play both sides for a second.

 

1) It does have history of going back to the factory after being in the US, I am guessing Lamborghini retained ownership during this time. Is there any other cars for whatever reason, Lamborghini sent & then had it returned while still owning it (besides just down the street)? I know several cars were converted to the S spec, but they were already owned privately.

 

2) On another site (another board) the guy that did the conversion claimed his brother still had the original carb setup, any follow up on that? With the original carbs, the idea of being worth less as a fuel injected car won't matter.

 

3) Rare color (and desirable) and rare rear tail light panel.

 

4) The Countach was a grey market car up to this point. Getting it legally on US soil was a big deal. Think of the Porsche 959 problems. Ferrari Boxer,etc.

 

 

On the other side

1) I know of no make or model of car that has ever been worth more when the modifications have been done to satisfy the epa or dot. Even if it was done as some special project. Who cares about the first car with US bumpers, a smog pump, or catalytic convertor. Yet we all know of cars that are worth more because of some special high output treatment, a one of one.

 

2) no comps for the price. Recent sale of same car.

 

 

 

 

1: No info on Lambo buying it back. They only collaborated to a point on the work started by a outside source.

 

2: Yes, it appears the complete system is out there. A big pluss if that could follow the car at a sale so for the future it COULD be turned back to original. If there was a posibility to do so, I am quite sure if the car was taken back to original, with the original parts, it would sell faster, and at a better price. The grey stands out from "all" the red, white and black cars.

 

3: Would need to be a buyer that this rear modifications suits, but still, and afterthought that is not original. Exterior color is EXELLENT, but I myself is not to sure about the interior. Would need to see it in person. But considdering the period of the car, it's colorcombo was probably BAD ASS when new!!

 

4: Grey market. Not a european "problem", but since it appears that many grey market cars have modifications done to them to make them legal on the road, it is as I see it not a plus that the originality have been tampered with. At the time, all tricks in the book was allowed to get them on the market as that was the only way to obtain these machines, but in retrospect, the real collectors out there that I know of only wants as close to perfection/original as it can be done in the upper price market. As you say in the second nr 1.

Actually, The car checks out as one of the few that is kosher to sell in the States. This was a project done in direct collaboration with the factory. I understand the idea of putting carbs back on, but to do so would be wrong as you would be erasing the most important part of this car's history. It is not one of the cobbled together private shop systems to BS pass US regulations. This is a legitimate car done specifically for the Lamborghini factory so that they could copy it for the future factory fuel injection systems. IE, why it went back to Lamborghini in 84 where they finalized the front and rear designs and copied the injection system. Notice the prototype plenum is plain where the factory plenums are finned and say Lamborghini, but still are the same basic design. I've been told first hand that this car was also the first where they convinced the factory to start using valve seals and a more appropriate piston ring tension.

Well... I just saw this, so I figured I'd toss in my two cents.... Its funny... Moderator or not, when I joined this board I was a countach technical neophyte... Didn't own one. Hell, Id never sat in one before I came here... So I wouldn't think about jumping into a thread like this... And in some respects that attitude stays with me... I still think of myself as a "newbie".

 

Flash forward, Ive owned my Countach for 6 years now- It still seems like yesterday that big fcuking truck pulled up... But its not... Im still a baby compared to some, but Im a veteran owner compared to most...

 

So here goes:

 

first- I wouldn't trade my FI car for two DDs. I can hear you screaming to yourself "You're on Crack!", but are afraid to post it because Ill ban your ass. But I'm not.... And I'll tell you why. THE THOUGHT of having to TINKER with carbs would be enough to take all the fun out of owning this car. Its not an easy car to live with.... It has an obvious PITA factor which has been well documented (and in my opinion a bit exaggerated) by the automotive media. But in my opinion the JOY of driving this PARTICULAR automobile supersedes those foibles. Carbs, and carb tuning would tip the scales the other way for me. KNOCK ON WOOD- My car has been a BREEZE to maintain. And I just cant see that carbs would deliver that ease of ownership

 

2nd. My car is unlikely to ever be for sale. EVER. I've said before for me to part with it, I would have to have a line on ANOTHER CAR... A BETTER CAR, with the SAME FEATURES, and the SAME COLOR COMBO. I don't think that car exists. In 8 years of looking at countaches, I haven't encountered it. But I suppose EVERYTHING has a price... And I guess my Countach does as well.... But I'll tell you this.... ITS A SHITLOAD MORE THAN $300,000.

Newbie?

You know as well as most of us, once carbs are set..you done. No fiddling. It's the delusional guys who start walking out to their car with a screwdriver in thier hands.

What happened at Sears?

Newbie?

You know as well as most of us, once carbs are set..you done. No fiddling.

 

Really? I always thought that carbs required an extra level of care as far as rebuilds, tweaking and calibration.

Really? I always thought that carbs required an extra level of care as far as rebuilds, tweaking and calibration.

 

Being the owner of a carbureted 2 valve 5 liter car I can say that the carbs do have some short comings.

I believe if you ask any 2 valve 5 liter owner about throttle hesitation they will all admit it exists between idle and 2,300 RPM's.

You need to be aware of it and how to compensate for it, otherwise it can be embarrassing at best or in the worse case an accident waiting to happen.

 

The issue is caused primarily by an insufficient volume of fuel delivery from the accelerator pumps when starting from stand still. If you have never driven a 2 valve 5 liter car you will never know about it as the hesitation does not exist with the 4 liter cars.

You can overcome the hesitation by your driving style. A quick engagement of the clutch in conjunction with a swift steady depressing of the accelerator pedal and you have barley enough of a blast of fuel from the pumps to transition through. Depressing the accelerator pedal too slow will allow the fuel to bleed back into the float bowl and you will bog the engine. Not enough clutch and you will not have enough momentum and bog the engine. Do either on a left hand turn with on coming traffic and your a sitting duck.

 

As far as maintenance I have had an accelerator plunger become disconnected from one of the six side drafts and it was obvious, almost like having half an engine. Hell, I lost (destroyed) an intake lobe on my 1970 Road Runner therefore losing an entire cylinder and still had plenty of power, the car just loped a little more at idle.

 

There are other issues as well, try to change or check air filters on a side draft, it will take hours not minutes. Cold starts, hot starts they are not to bad but again with a carbed car you ain't moving until you have some warmth on the engine 10 minutes idle.

Fuel lines, you have six banjo fitting all which are capable of leaking, not common but possible.

 

Sincerely Vic

 

Vic, change your exhaust dump jets located in the bottom of your fuel bowls . Stock is usually .70. I put the solid (ie no hole) back in. You don't have to remove your carbs. Stand on mine & it goes. I did rebuild the distributor. They get rusty inside & the weights freeze up. Moisture is the culprit. Some guys drill holes in the cap to vent it.

 

Yes the drivers air filter is a sob to change. Try changing the cam cover gaskets on a 2v fuel injected (or on a 4v compared to it's fuel injected version). They all have their short comings. None are easy to work on.

Other than turning up the idle a little i haven't touched my carbs in 5years. Weber rebuild kits are forty bucks each. No hesitation, with DD's i think that the ignition system is mostly to blame if that is your problem. Also ethanol fuel leans your mixture out about 3to 4 percent along with eating up all your car parts so ethanol sucks and slightly bigger jets would help. I run non ethanol fuel. Erik, the car in question is a side draft car.

Vic, change your exhaust dump jets located in the bottom of your fuel bowls . Stock is usually .70. I put the solid (ie no hole) back in. You don't have to remove your carbs. Stand on mine & it goes. I did rebuild the distributor. They get rusty inside & the weights freeze up. Moisture is the culprit. Some guys drill holes in the cap to vent it.

 

Yes the drivers air filter is a sob to change. Try changing the cam cover gaskets on a 2v fuel injected (or on a 4v compared to it's fuel injected version). They all have their short comings. None are easy to work on.

 

I appreciate the input Earlycat.

Everything associated with my engine has been thoroughly rebuilt and I have verified movement of all components in the distributor so I know there are no issues there.

 

As far as changing out the bypass jets to solid ones I have heard of that being done before, however I have also heard it is not to good to do as you start washing down the cylinder walls with excessive gas and run the risk premature cylinder wall and ring wear. Not to mention possibly contaminating the oil with gasoline which is not good for the bearing or anything else for that matter.

 

I need to find my Weber carburetor tuning manual before I muck around any further as I do not wish to create any problems by just tinkering with them. Once I find it as I am still unpacking boxes from the move into the new house I will verify that everything matches factor specs and go from there. Who knows maybe someone changed something out at one time and it has been overlooked.

 

Sincerely Vic