HiFi/Highend/Audio Gear

Not sure what these are but my friend has 6 of them and they look expensive. He said this was his cheap stereo, and his million dollar system is being moved in

 

B&W 800's.

 

B&W 800's.

 

Is that a good or bad?

 

 

^I am not an EE so perhaps Fellippe can chime in on the science behind this.

 

While I concur that it is, fundamentally, a transmissions of 0's and 1's, ideally speaking, fibre optics would provide the best transmission. And yet, you would, among others here, concur that we have seen and heard and experienced that most digital connections are still done electrically rather than optically . In the early 90's, AT&T glass fibre optic cable were THE cable for digital transmission due to the true and optimal glass quality. What happened thereafter I do not know but it was clearly superior than Toslink. Using that as an analogy, light is light, perhaps luminosity plays a role but it's still just between being lit and being darken. And yet there was clearly an audible difference. Again, using car's transmission as an analogy, DSG is clearly superior to manual in terms of speed, smoothness and ease of operations. It's only shortfalls are perhaps servicing when it breaks and the added weight. So why do we prefer a manual transmission then? Other questionable issues include B&W photos vs. colour ones, mechanical watches vs. digital ones etc... There are things in life that involves the human factor rather than from a pure academic perspective. No one is entirely correct in an absolute sense.

 

I understand your skepticism especially with your background. Just a slight bit of info. on my background, I played in a symphony orchestra for 6 years so it is safe to say that I know how musical instruments should sound and whether their image, sizes and voicing are correct or not in a proper concert hall or in a studio. I would encourage you to remain impartial and audition some of the cables. Whatever your findings would be is fine by me but hopefully it will offer a new perspective to you views. I too had enjoyed the debate.

 

Just about all my comments about EE as it relates to audio is typically reverse engineering to justify my preferences.

 

I like analog over digital....ok, why?

 

I prefer coax over toslink...same question.

 

It's not hundreds of hours studying and making a conclusion and then fighting those inner beliefs. It wouldn't be any different for cables, amps, etc.

 

That's why these debates are so intense, because if you read something long enough from many different sources, you can become brainwashed easily. When somebody with some experience who knows what he's doing offers a different viewpoint , it's like he just insulted your religion!

 

And btw there was a period of time on this board (and still there to some degree) where the rhetoric is that Ferraris legitimately suck, and even those who knew better still succumbed to the masses.

 

With regards to this particular discussion of 0s and 1s, it should theoretically be a non conversation yet by experience there are differences with cables in digital as well. I even heard a famous mastering engineer (forget which one) say that the sound of his pre-mastered CD sounded different from the ones sold in stores, and it bothered him!

 

Something else that seems glossed over are parts, and why they matter a lot. For instance, a lot of discussion on D/A converters and the digital side but not much on the analog side. And it's in the analog side where you can do much more with sound. Most of the sound tweaking is pure parts experimentation. Despite what's talked about, the actual engineering is quite mature so you're left with the actual parts to really make gains. And some of us prefer vintage parts. When I asked someone about why can't I get this certain part in 2013, he said it contains Arsenic which wouldn't fly too well in the modern day, lol.

 

Reminds me of other superior yet not environmentally friendly products like leaded vs unleased gasoline, R12 vs R134a refrigerant, and Halon 1301 vs FM200/Inergen fire suppression gas.

 

And with respect to how many bits, the theory etc...24 bit on paper should be better than 18 or 20 bit, but the best chip I've heard is 18. Doesn't mean 24 is bad by any stretch (I know a great DAC for about $3500 that's worth much more than that), but at the extreme end it's not as good for whatever reason.

 

I'll also throw out that while I love tubes in everything (Amps, DACs, phono stages) it remains to be seen if its good or not for reel to reel tape decks. It's very possible that solid state is better than tube in this application.

 

 

Is that a good or bad?

 

Good speaker.

 

Bad for the money.

Spot on Fellippe.

 

And that's also why some of the "re-issued" tube amps don't sound as good as the original ones (ok, I probably opened another can of worms ); the materials that was used in the transformers are not longer available due to new environmental-friendly regulations. Oh well, I suppose we should be playing our part to save the Earth...

 

And perhaps to provoke some further thoughts: yes, there are people who had more $ than brains and yes their are people who rate products by their name --- I have yet to see one Japanese audio article who doesn't like any JBL 4xxx-series or Everest-series speakers, likewise for any McIntosh or Mark Levinson amps . But there are plenty of people out there who would spend wisely. Hi-fi audio cables have been around for 3 decades now: Monster Cable likely invented the genre. Consumers are quite price and quality-conscious in general; although marketing plays a vital role, a genre of products that had survived for 3 decades and with prices that used to start at less than 50cents per foot to today's stratospheric prices of 5-figure per metre indicate that there is something different/unique and it is rather obvious. Otherwise, companies like the Monster, Cardas, Audioquest etc... would have long folded. And it seems like new players are added on a semi-annual basis while major stakeholders are re-inventing themselves all the time --- USB cable being the latest evolution. As for my definition of Absolute Lunacy: the terminolgy applies to its asking price, not the claim with respect to the sound quality. The same term can easily be applicable to a Lamborghini --- the argument being we need to observe and obey the set speed limit and that's not even 1/3 of a Lambo's capable speed. So why would anyone buy such a car and at such prices especially when when one factors in its impracticality. But by the very existence of this forum, we know that Lamborghini are being bought and driven and they are not closing down in the near future.

 

As for the B&W 800's. These are the speakers that made B&W, i.e. they have been around for decades starting with the 801's and they are been evolving over the years --- 801S, 801Matrix, 800, 800Diamond etc... In their hey days, 801's were often used by many professional studios as monitor speakers. My first pair of "large" speakers were 801S. They are no longer regarded as highly as they used to be as other speakers had surpassed them but they set the bench mark nevertheless. I would compare them in the audio world as Porsche's 911 in the auto world. My criticism on the 800 (in all guises) is that they need plenty of power to sound well. But large power amps usually tends to be a bit unrefined so it makes the tonal signature a bit corse. They are a bit costly and they weigh a ton.

Is that a good or bad?

It's God. At least used to be.

I have read this thread with interest for a while now and have a few questions for the experts. I worked in the commercial and residential audio industry for about five years and came away from it with many of the same beliefs that have been expressed here. I love vinyl and prefer analog over digital, although I seem to prefer solid state over tubes.

 

Anyway, my father worked in the industry for twenty years before passing away at the age of 39 after a long and hard fought battle with cancer. This was twenty years ago and I inherited and preserved his vinyl collection along with his equipment. Here's what I have been putting together.

 

I'm using his old Technics SH 11-P3 turntable. I found a new original Sure cartridge/head he had and that's what I have on it currently.

 

The set of speakers he had are ESS AMT1's that used a heil driver. The sound is pretty good (not great) and I was wondering what you guys thought. I replaced the original woofers about ten years ago with a Super Pro.

 

My next project is going through this amplifier that my dad designed and built. He put together four of them and they are all still being used by friends and family members. It just needs a new fuse holder soldered in. I just thought I would share.

 

Pardon the dust.

 

I only recently acquired the amp. The company he worked for had it sitting around for the last twenty some years and they called me when they found it. I'm not a hardcore audiophile. I'm just trying to put all this together for nostalgia's sake. Any tips or ideas are welcome. I was thinking about starting a vinyl lovers thread. I'm always shopping and was wondering about some of everyone else's favorites.

Vinyl lovers thread would be fun.

 

Full albums, 12" singles, direct to disc and even some good 7" 45s would make a nice list.

 

Audi, you gotta get into tubes.

AudiBull, sorry to learn of your loss. Your father must have been a great contributor to the audio industry.

 

No expert here; just have a passion for music. Technics is a branch of Panasonic which itself is a branch of the Matsushita group. Technics was/is known to make reliable turntables; anything from regular home playback to DJ to studio-grade hardware. The SP10 was probably their most well-known. It's not esoteric hi-end per se; that likely belongs to Micro-Secki as far as Japanese turntables are concerned; but it's reliability and affordability was tops. The tonearm looks like a SME 3009 --- this was the standard for hi-end tonearm in its days and is still highly regarded today. It can be a bit finicky to set up but, depending on one's perspective, it's can also be a joy to tweak.

 

Your power amp --- if that is what I think it is, did your dad or your family know Nelson Pass? If so, perhaps you should contact him and ask if he would update it with modern components. As it currently is, it is still one very fine amplifier. Probably doesn't sound as transparent as some of its modern counterparts due to the technology limitations back then and it probably runs quite hot; but it is still one fine-sounding power amp.

 

The speakers --- your dad certainly knew what he was doing and fairly much on top of the game in his days. The ESS AMT1's was a game-changing product and probably ahead of its time. The down side being it requires a truck-load of good clean power (hence your great Class-A pwr amp) and, in today's terms, the drivers are probably a bit incoherent with each other; i.e. the woofer cannot "catch up" with the tweeter. In the last decade, you can still get original components from the original manufacturer but I am unsure about today.

 

You did not say which pre-amp you have; surely, you have one especially when you have a turntable. Is the phono amp built into the pre-amp or is it a standalone component?

 

With speakers such as the AMT1's, I understand why you would prefer solid state amps due to the speakers' hunger for power. However, you really ought to try some Single-End-Triode amplifiers on the AMT1's. The bass may not be as authoritative but the mids and highs would be like sweet poison. Once bitten, there is no going back. Btw, don't let the numbers fool you (and I am about to open another can of worms): somehow, a 12W tube pwr amp feels much more powerful than a 100W SS amp. I am a tube guy but I am not thrilled on huge and powerful amps that requires plenty of tubes. IMO, a well-designed tube pwr amp with 60W/channel is sufficient to feed 95% of the speakers available. Perhaps recommending SET tube amp is a bit hardcore; see if you can have access to pwr amps by Conrad Johnson or Audio Research. Both have very distinct tonal signatures of their own and have a somewhat different philosophy behind their voicing. Take you own preference.

 

A vinyl thread would be awesome. Don't forget half-speed masters Fellippe.

So I did a bit of digging around yesterday. Some reading for those interested and with some time to burn:

 

http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Intro/SQ/USB_SPDIF.htm

 

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.au/2011/07/cds-are-so-1980s.html

 

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14195

 

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=15398

 

 

 

Fellippe are there any budget (up tp 2k) tube amps or pre-amps you would recommend? Big $$$$$'s is out of the question.

So I did a bit of digging around yesterday. Some reading for those interested and with some time to burn:

 

http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Intro/SQ/USB_SPDIF.htm

 

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com.au/2011/07/cds-are-so-1980s.html

 

<a href="http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14195" target="_blank">http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14195</a>

 

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=15398

 

 

 

Fellippe are there any budget (up tp 2k) tube amps or pre-amps you would recommend? Big $$$$$'s is out of the question.

 

Nice links there Joe, always an interesting read.

 

Of course, I'll keep CDs and streaming digital. If I want to listen to a dedicated CD and in the mood for more quality I'll insert the disc. Otherwise for more casual listening, the stream is fine (e.g. Sonos).

 

As for the whole high resolution thing, here's the dirty secret:

 

More high end DACs exist for 16 bit redbook PCM (i.e. standard CD) than do the 24/96 PCM (DVD Audio) or DSD (SACD). So, if it comes down to a standard CD with a nice DAC vs. a DVD-A or SACD in a universal/dedicated player, the former will sound better in most cases, even a lot better.

 

The DVD-A has more potential than SACD from a DAC standpoint because there are some good 24/96 capable DACs I like and you should be able to connect them up and get the best sound from those discs.

 

Whereas SACD is proprietary to my knowledge at least when it comes to SACD players. There are DSD DACs out there.....my guess is to play DSD files from a hard drive. I can safely say that the high end DSD DAC world is not on the same caliber as PCM.

 

In any case, the inner collector geek in all of us will want to own these esoteric formats just for the sake of owning them. That explains my crazy desire to own a nice Nakamichi cassette deck eventually even if it gets 1-2 plays a year.

 

I just picked up a very cheap universal player to listen for the comparisons using equal hardware, but haven't had the chance to hook it up. The last bit I'll throw out is sometimes the mastering is different on each format, which further confuses things.

 

The Esoteric DV-50 is one of the nicer universal players out there.

 

With regards to your question about tube amps up to $2000, I would recommend looking at Synthesis Audio:

 

http://synthesis.co.it/products.php

 

They recently dropped the "Ensemble" which was right around $2000 and very nice (integrated pair of monoblocks). I would look at the link above under "PRIME", and then under integrated amp (Nimis, Seamus, Shine,etc).

 

It's a very nice start to tubes, and lately they've been adding some very legit higher end stuff too -- the ROMA and ACTION series are really good amps to look at down the road.

 

A step lower would be to go to Jolida:

 

http://www.jolida.com/product

 

The Jolida 302BRC is what I would recommend if you went this route. Around $900 I believe.

 

Fellippe are there any budget (up tp 2k) tube amps or pre-amps you would recommend? Big $$$$$'s is out of the question.

 

Sorry to hijack the thread a bit. I would be quite cautious about budget tube pre & pwr amps. Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you need deep pockets for tube gear. Just that tube gears demand a lot more from the components than solid state because all the tube gear innards runs on high power and high current. I.e. you would need high-grade components that can withstand all the power that runs though it for reliability and long product life. Lost costs means lower grade components; it boils down to a matter of paying up front or paying later. For inferior gears, if you are lucky, you lose a few tubes when things go south (although some tubes, especially matched pairs or quad-set, can be $$ too); if your luck runs out, it takes out a transformer and your amp ends up basically being a very effective doorstop. It maybe worthwhile to invest in used gear, have it fully inspected and calibrated, swap in a fresh set of tubes and enjoy the music. Quality amps with quality components (obviously) would provides decades of enjoyment.

 

I would add Rogue Audio to the recommended list. They offer a very wide spectrum of products from $$$$ to $$.

Sorry to hijack the thread a bit. I would be quite cautious about budget tube pre & pwr amps. Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you need deep pockets for tube gear. Just that tube gears demand a lot more from the components than solid state because all the tube gear innards runs on high power and high current. I.e. you would need high-grade components that can withstand all the power that runs though it for reliability and long product life. Lost costs means lower grade components; it boils down to a matter of paying up front or paying later. For inferior gears, if you are lucky, you lose a few tubes when things go south (although some tubes, especially matched pairs or quad-set, can be $$ too); if your luck runs out, it takes out a transformer and your amp ends up basically being a very effective doorstop. It maybe worthwhile to invest in used gear, have it fully inspected and calibrated, swap in a fresh set of tubes and enjoy the music. Quality amps with quality components (obviously) would provides decades of enjoyment.

 

I would add Rogue Audio to the recommended list. They offer a very wide spectrum of products from $$$$ to $$.

 

It's already hard enough to get people to leave S.S. and this is what you tell them?

 

Not all tubes are good, but good tubes are > SS. I'd take any good budget tubes over Krell and what have you in the SS world, price notwithstanding....even if Krells and the like were free.

 

 

 

 

 

AudiBull, sorry to learn of your loss. Your father must have been a great contributor to the audio industry.

 

No expert here; just have a passion for music. Technics is a branch of Panasonic which itself is a branch of the Matsushita group. Technics was/is known to make reliable turntables; anything from regular home playback to DJ to studio-grade hardware. The SP10 was probably their most well-known. It's not esoteric hi-end per se; that likely belongs to Micro-Secki as far as Japanese turntables are concerned; but it's reliability and affordability was tops. The tonearm looks like a SME 3009 --- this was the standard for hi-end tonearm in its days and is still highly regarded today. It can be a bit finicky to set up but, depending on one's perspective, it's can also be a joy to tweak.

 

Your power amp --- if that is what I think it is, did your dad or your family know Nelson Pass? If so, perhaps you should contact him and ask if he would update it with modern components. As it currently is, it is still one very fine amplifier. Probably doesn't sound as transparent as some of its modern counterparts due to the technology limitations back then and it probably runs quite hot; but it is still one fine-sounding power amp.

 

The speakers --- your dad certainly knew what he was doing and fairly much on top of the game in his days. The ESS AMT1's was a game-changing product and probably ahead of its time. The down side being it requires a truck-load of good clean power (hence your great Class-A pwr amp) and, in today's terms, the drivers are probably a bit incoherent with each other; i.e. the woofer cannot "catch up" with the tweeter. In the last decade, you can still get original components from the original manufacturer but I am unsure about today.

 

You did not say which pre-amp you have; surely, you have one especially when you have a turntable. Is the phono amp built into the pre-amp or is it a standalone component?

 

With speakers such as the AMT1's, I understand why you would prefer solid state amps due to the speakers' hunger for power. However, you really ought to try some Single-End-Triode amplifiers on the AMT1's. The bass may not be as authoritative but the mids and highs would be like sweet poison. Once bitten, there is no going back. Btw, don't let the numbers fool you (and I am about to open another can of worms): somehow, a 12W tube pwr amp feels much more powerful than a 100W SS amp. I am a tube guy but I am not thrilled on huge and powerful amps that requires plenty of tubes. IMO, a well-designed tube pwr amp with 60W/channel is sufficient to feed 95% of the speakers available. Perhaps recommending SET tube amp is a bit hardcore; see if you can have access to pwr amps by Conrad Johnson or Audio Research. Both have very distinct tonal signatures of their own and have a somewhat different philosophy behind their voicing. Take you own preference.

 

A vinyl thread would be awesome. Don't forget half-speed masters Fellippe.

VCR, your response is greatly appreciated. Until you mentioned Nelson Pass I had never heard the name and had no idea who he was. I called my mom and asked her if the name was familiar and if she remembered anything about the history of my dad and the amplifier. She told me that my dad spent about four years working on them and he and two other guys that lived in California (my dad was in Cincinnati) were on the phone with each other anywhere from two to eight hours a night making altercations, testing, and brainstorming.

 

My dad had a workroom in the basement and I can remember learning how to solder with him while he was putting all the transistors on the heatsinks for those amps (this was around 1985, I was four years old). He had an oscilloscope, variable power supplies, and drawers and shelves full of thousands of resistors, diodes, caps, etc.

 

Through your mention of Mr. Pass I found what looks to be a couple early DIY designs (here and here). These look very similar to the amp I have and at least now I have my roadmap for going through the amp.

 

I'm not sure whether or not my dad was working with Mr. Pass or with a couple other DIY guys. I sent Nelson an email today and eagerly await a reply. My dad was very into kits of all sorts. His first computer was a Heathkit he put together himself. On another sad note my mom informed me that one of the two men in California he was working with passed away a year before my dad (1990, my dad in 91'). She couldn't remember his name, but he and my dad grew up together in Indianapolis and she still remembers where he lived as a teenager. She said he worked at Audio Acoustics (I'm thinking Acoustic Research). In a few days I plan on going through some of the ledgers and address books my mom has saved to see if I can unearth anything.

 

As far as the preamp, I have my dad's old Crown IC-150 and will be using that with the amplifier once it's up and running. At least in the beginning.

 

I also still have his old tuner and tape deck, although I doubt I will ever use the tape deck.

 

I'm not adverse to tubes. I've heard several that are amazing. I guess it's more the bang for the buck factor that swings me the other way as far as overall preference. Some of the ultra high end stuff just makes me laugh.

 

Thanks once again, you helped connect a few interesting dots.

 

I'll work on the vinyl thread when I have time, or feel free to get it started whenever. I'm sure my collection pales in comparison to what you and Fellippe have accumulated.

I'd take any good budget tubes over Krell and what have you in the SS world, price notwithstanding....even if Krells and the like were free.

 

Fellippe - I'd swear you were baiting me !

 

Joe, thanks for posting those links - very interesting.

 

I especially like this article : subjective vs objective

 

AudiBull - It's extremely cool that your father built his own a SS power amp! - have you fired it up yet?

 

 

 

Yeah I only found that guys webpage the other night. IMO he brings science and measured data to the world of HiFi very well with various links all over the place complete with references to AES videos and papers.

Fellippe - I'd swear you were baiting me !

 

Haha.

 

Well, if you prefer digital over analog you'd naturally prefer SS.

 

And vice versa for tubes.

 

Sometimes I have to remind myself it is better in the long run for people to disagree since it will only keep costs down for me.

AudiBull - It's extremely cool that your father built his own a SS power amp! - have you fired it up yet?

I plan on firing it up this weekend. When I got it back it was missing a cap to one of the fuse holders. Tried to find a matching cap so I didn't have to change out the entire fuse holder. I think I may have found one. I ordered some quick blow fuses of various amperage so I could gradually ramp things up and avoid blowing anything vital. The next question will be whether the amp draw is too much for the circuit at my house. There's a lot on it already.

Nice links there Joe, always an interesting read.

 

Of course, I'll keep CDs and streaming digital. If I want to listen to a dedicated CD and in the mood for more quality I'll insert the disc. Otherwise for more casual listening, the stream is fine (e.g. Sonos).

 

As for the whole high resolution thing, here's the dirty secret:

 

More high end DACs exist for 16 bit redbook PCM (i.e. standard CD) than do the 24/96 PCM (DVD Audio) or DSD (SACD). So, if it comes down to a standard CD with a nice DAC vs. a DVD-A or SACD in a universal/dedicated player, the former will sound better in most cases, even a lot better.

 

The DVD-A has more potential than SACD from a DAC standpoint because there are some good 24/96 capable DACs I like and you should be able to connect them up and get the best sound from those discs.

 

Whereas SACD is proprietary to my knowledge at least when it comes to SACD players. There are DSD DACs out there.....my guess is to play DSD files from a hard drive. I can safely say that the high end DSD DAC world is not on the same caliber as PCM.

 

In any case, the inner collector geek in all of us will want to own these esoteric formats just for the sake of owning them. That explains my crazy desire to own a nice Nakamichi cassette deck eventually even if it gets 1-2 plays a year.

 

I just picked up a very cheap universal player to listen for the comparisons using equal hardware, but haven't had the chance to hook it up. The last bit I'll throw out is sometimes the mastering is different on each format, which further confuses things.

 

The Esoteric DV-50 is one of the nicer universal players out there.

 

With regards to your question about tube amps up to $2000, I would recommend looking at Synthesis Audio:

 

http://synthesis.co.it/products.php

 

They recently dropped the "Ensemble" which was right around $2000 and very nice (integrated pair of monoblocks). I would look at the link above under "PRIME", and then under integrated amp (Nimis, Seamus, Shine,etc).

 

It's a very nice start to tubes, and lately they've been adding some very legit higher end stuff too -- the ROMA and ACTION series are really good amps to look at down the road.

 

A step lower would be to go to Jolida:

 

http://www.jolida.com/product

 

The Jolida 302BRC is what I would recommend if you went this route. Around $900 I believe.

 

Yes, in the high resolution digital world the implementation of the format usually has more of an affect on sound quality than the format itself.

 

I'm looking into valve amps more than I ever have in the past, thanks for the recommendations and info Fellippe and VCR. So far it looks like the tubes themselves are very very clean, cleaner than SS and better with high frequencies which is related to better transient response, with distortion components that are "nicer", then the transformer comes along and adds a whole load more distortion, but in a nice way. Also valve amps have a much much lower damping factor compared to SS which may or may not be a bad thing depending on the speaker. I know these are very general statements but if and when I find enough quality info I'll post it up.

 

 

 

Earlier in the thread there was mention that digital is a low resolution ladder compared to analogue formats. I think this video explains the reality of digital audio well:

 

http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml

 

 

And this page explains the reality of vinyl:

 

http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...ths_%28Vinyl%29

And vice versa for tubes.

 

Tubes definitely have their place - this is the centerpiece of my live rig at the moment:

 

 

 

2 x 100 watts of pure EL34 magic - sounds awesome through 4 x 4 x 12 cabinets!

 

My point is this is very much a tool for music/ sound creation.

 

If you were looking for faithful REcreation device I would choose not to use tubes.

 

I can certainly see the allure though -they do do pleasing things to sound ( as Joe alluded to above) and of course tube amps look fantastic ( ).

 

If you are going to tell me you've got a tube amp that doesn't colour the sound and gives you an exact reproduction of the audio then I'd say great - but I'll use a decent SS for less cash ( and less weight) that does the same thing.

 

 

PS Joe - thanks for those links - always nice to bring a bit of science to the table once in a while!

Tubes definitely have their place - this is the centerpiece of my live rig at the moment:

 

 

 

2 x 100 watts of pure EL34 magic - sounds awesome through 4 x 4 x 12 cabinets!

 

My point is this is very much a tool for music/ sound creation.

 

If you were looking for faithful REcreation device I would choose not to use tubes.

 

I can certainly see the allure though -they do do pleasing things to sound ( as Joe alluded to above) and of course tube amps look fantastic ( ).

 

If you are going to tell me you've got a tube amp that doesn't colour the sound and gives you an exact reproduction of the audio then I'd say great - but I'll use a decent SS for less cash ( and less weight) that does the same thing.

 

 

PS Joe - thanks for those links - always nice to bring a bit of science to the table once in a while!

 

I find the "faithfulness" issue overrated simply because the sound of music changes as soon as it hits the mic, and everywhere else down the chain into the mixing and mastering stage. I doubt we'll ever have the technology to ever get us to be able to reproduce sound with enough accuracy to fool people into thinking that they are listening to live music when they are not.

 

You could be in a different room altogether and still be able to tell if there's live music or a sound system.

 

Additionally the amount of recordings out there that even come close to this discussion are rather small, maybe 10%, and rarely what's a big seller.

 

In the end you're chasing an unobtainable goal. You're left with trying to pick what sounds better.

 

I contend that neither tube nor SS is 100% accurate but tube closer to reality when you come to grips that a good tube is less harsh sounding than SS. As I've mentioned before I never hear harsh treble in live music performances so why would I want that in playback?

 

As for vinyl and the reality, you can paint the science however you like . To this day I've never heard digital sound as open/life like like a great LP or tape. I contend there are more advantages still but that's the most pronounced one. You can get digital to have lots of bass, sound warm, detailed, etc but very hard to get that ambience. A really good DAC helps but still, IMHO not quite there.

 

In case you think this a self proclaimed golden ear claim that's not verifiable, what do you say in response to individuals who can accurately differentiate between the two formats with good accuracy?

 

You can tell from a distance , where cracks/pops and/or tape hiss are inaudible.

 

Theres even discussion on whether having no noise (digital) is "natural" and accurate either. The noise associated with analog as long as its not overwhelming is IMHO a good thing.

I find the "faithfulness" issue overrated simply because the sound of music changes as soon as it hits the mic, and everywhere else down the chain into the mixing and mastering stage.

 

I'm referring to faithful to the final recorded product - capturing sounds and being faithful (or not) to them during recording is somebody else's job.

 

 

Additionally the amount of recordings out there that even come close to this discussion are rather small, maybe 10%, and rarely what's a big seller.

 

100% agree

 

 

I contend that neither tube nor SS is 100% accurate but tube closer to reality when you come to grips that a good tube is less harsh sounding than SS. As I've mentioned before I never hear harsh treble in live music performances so why would I want that in playback?

 

These are the sort of comments I take issue with... do you think a mixing or mastering engineer who is powering his monitor speakers using SS amps is thinking ' I wish the sound I'm listening too wasn't so harsh - damn these SS amps!'?

 

Of course not. A well designed power amp operating within it's performance parameters should have a pretty much flat frequency response - regardless of whether SS or tube. So where's the harshness coming from? If it's audible you most certainly would see it on a RTA. more on that here

 

In case you think this a self proclaimed golden ear claim that's not verifiable, what do you say in response to individuals who can accurately differentiate between the two formats with good accuracy?

 

The fact they sound different is in no doubt. What is debatable is that vinyl sounds better or is somehow technically superior to digital - you know which side of the fence I'm on!

 

The noise associated with analog as long as its not overwhelming is IMHO a good thing.

 

???? !!!! ???? Crikey.... I think I've heard it all now!

 

 

Will do VCR. I can tell you that it improves the HD800's bass in every way and that has always been my issue with the 800! About the power cables, well the amp doesn't come with a power cable, some did actually get one which was hidden very well in the box...not me.

 

Back on topic...

 

Vahid, the HDVD800 does come with a power cord. I can see why the North American/Japan model would come with the power cord well-hidden inside the HDVD800's box since the AC receptacle would fit inside it. Judging from your AQ cord, yours looked like it has the UK receptacle which clearly would not fit inside the HDVD800 box. However, it does come in a separate package with a power cord, UK receptacle, fused et al and is clearly labelled. Perhaps it's time to call up your Sennheiser dealer or sole agent.

Semi related thought VCR, but I think more amplifier manufacturers should consider a 208/220/240 VAC single phase type power supply.

 

I'd like to experiment with a three phase power supply too, but that will have to wait sometime.

Semi related thought VCR, but I think more amplifier manufacturers should consider a 208/220/240 VAC single phase type power supply.

 

I'd like to experiment with a three phase power supply too, but that will have to wait sometime.

 

I agree. But our reg-writers in this part of the world would likely demand so many "protection" stuff and warning labels that it would be the size of an oven range when it becomes available. 3-phase power supply would be cool too but I guess you literally have to build a house around that.