The 2013 Obama Scandal omnibus thread- Benghazi, IRS, AP, EPA, Congressional cloak room

Sorry Chipster. This isn’t a personal attack but you are wrong. I know this isn’t a popular sentiment to have in the post-modernistic society we live in that preaches tolerance and understanding of everyone and their opinions. Like it or not there are still absolute truths in this world. This is one of them.

 

This isn’t a hot button issue like gay rights, gun legislation, immigration reform or abortion. There is no grey or white area or societal or religious point of views to take in to account. This is black and white. The government is unilaterally seizing my electronic and verbal communication and storing it for whatever use they see fit. This is in DIRECT conflict with the Constitution and what is says they can and can’t do.

 

A little less than 250 years ago we went to war over fcuking tea. Granted the tea was representative of the issue at hand…that the Empire was administering THEIR version of government without any say from the people being governed. We had enough of it and told them to pound sand.

 

Now the government is administering their rule as they see fit again. This time rather than the citizens having no say we have a say but the government is blatantly ignoring it. I find this extremely disturbing matched only by the very citizenry that is unconcerned over this fundamental breach of “We the People…”

 

I am not privy to what you see in the intelligence community but frankly I don’t care. Just like you can’t explain to a grieving mother in Newtown why I should be able to continue to buy AR-15 and 30 round mags I probably won’t be able to explain to you why we have a tool that you can’t use anymore. Guess what…that is what happens when you wear the white hat. We were founded on ideals and principles. Sometimes those things appear to hold us back. In reality they set us free.

 

As a side note I work in the Nuclear Industry. I visit Plants for a living and spend my time INSIDE containment. I’ve been inside a Steam Generator and I’ve stared into the Spent Fuel Pool and seen the blue glow everyone associates with radiation streaming out of an open Reactor. I am quite familiar with the freedoms I surrender when I walk through security and the level of scrutiny, the searches and seizers and all other manner of unfreedoms (if you will let me use that word) I have when I walk through the gate.

 

I willingly give those up for the work I do there. I do NOT willingly give those up to live in society that may be “safer” for me. There are plenty of rules put in place for society’s own good. Drivers License before you can operate car, Medical Boards before you can operate on me, licensing and exams to say that people are experts in a given field and regulations to make sure that society continues to function. Those are all things we abide by in the best interest of each other. The government having unfettered access to my communications and my e-profile if you will are NOT necessary for a functioning society. They are necessary for a police state.

 

I would LOVE ( I really do mean that) to continue this conversation with you in person at some point. I am sure there are some things I could learn from you and viewing it for your point of view. I’d like to think the same could be said in reverse. The next time I am in the DC area I will look you up.

 

I’d say we can meet up and chat over a beer but I have a feeling we’d draw too many unwanted eyes in public. Maybe have to go with a six-pack and your place. Either way the NSA will be listening.

 

At this point I agree with Chipster.

 

As far as we know the data is formed by the companies, the government is just copying it. You elect your government and you elect which search engine you use.

If the government said to Google "hey thanks for the data but could you start recording this info as well" then you can roll out your freedom spiel.

Convo between an IRS agent and the President of a pro-life group.

 

http://www.adfmedia.org/files/ProLifeRevolutionIRScall.wav

 

http://www.adfmedia.org/files/ProLifeRevol...anscriptIRS.pdf

I will just have to agree to disagree. What is different today compared to before this news coming out other than not knowing the govt had access to that info? The answer is nothing. If you aren't doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about is my mindset.

 

That is an extremely dangerous mindset. By that argument, the government, if it so desires, should be able to just come into your home and search through all your private files and computer without your permission as they please. It also takes the view that we are essentially subjects to the almighty State. And that as subjects, so long as you aren't doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear from the State.

 

That's not how it is supposed to work. We are citizens, not subjects, and if the State wants to come into your home or read your e-mails or whatnot, they have to provide a reason to do so. The burden of proof is on them, not on you to give them a reason why not to come in.

That is an extremely dangerous mindset. By that argument, the government, if it so desires, should be able to just come into your home and search through all your private files and computer without your permission as they please. It also takes the view that we are essentially subjects to the almighty State. And that as subjects, so long as you aren't doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear from the State.

 

That's not how it is supposed to work. We are citizens, not subjects, and if the State wants to come into your home or read your e-mails or whatnot, they have to provide a reason to do so. The burden of proof is on them, not on you to give them a reason why not to come in.

 

 

That is an extremely dangerous mindset. By that argument, the government, if it so desires, should be able to just come into your home and search through all your private files and computer without your permission as they please. It also takes the view that we are essentially subjects to the almighty State. And that as subjects, so long as you aren't doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear from the State.

 

That's not how it is supposed to work. We are citizens, not subjects, and if the State wants to come into your home or read your e-mails or whatnot, they have to provide a reason to do so. The burden of proof is on them, not on you to give them a reason why not to come in.

 

 

Romantic idea.

 

So stop your government from gaining that information. Oh hang on the tech companies will still have that info regardless.

 

That is the problem no one seems to object to.

Romantic idea.

 

So stop your government from gaining that information. Oh hang on the tech companies will still have that info regardless.

 

That is the problem no one seems to object to.

 

Im sorry... But that like saying "I dont want my pre and post operative photos from my vasectomy plastered on the office bulletin board." And the response being "why not, your doctor has them already."

 

I GET TO DECIDE WHO I VOLUNTEER to give the info to....

 

 

You've been conditioned to accept the unacceptable in the name of security.

I know what you are saying however if the government were throwing up Drones up in the air and were monitoring your route to work then I would see that the uproar is fully justified.

 

These tech firms have become too powerful, they gather too much info. That is the elephant in the room.

 

Having worked in intel analyst albeit on a local level I do know that it is a thoroughly difficult job in order to gather info and compile a coherent picture when you are gagging for more data to shore up your conclusion.

However what is going on is clearly wrong. It cannot be denied. Now world governments are falling over to ease their citizens concerns that they played no part in this program.

Something tells me there is more to come from all of this and it is coming from the Tech companies and then other countries.

 

There is general response that the government have utilised a "back door" into their servers.

Well that is just John Grisham talk for IT mumbo BS.

Programmers do not have backdoors, they have the front door and that is fcuking it. The tech firms are way more complicit in all of this than they are really letting on and that is the next fall out. Stock and confidence in these firms is about to drop quicker than a whore's drawers with lead in the frilly stitching.

Hannibal and wheels excellent posts!

I would like to clarify again my previous statements in this matter.

I am ok with the government having access to some of my personal information necessary for me to be a productive member of the society I decided to be part of, nothing more than that, I am not ok with them having access to every single one of my moves and invading my privacy for the purpose of "babysitting" me, I am a grown individual I can look after myself, make my own decisions and accept to take the good with the bad, I do not need to be babysat by the fricking State, a state which is mostly comprised of massive self-serving idiots which have no idea what they are doing.

 

 

Just to put in LP context, I am ok with the management/mods to know my email address and IP, monitor public postings but if you read any of my private messages I would be extremely pissed

Just to put in LP context, I am ok with the management/mods to know my email address and IP, monitor public postings but if you read any of my private messages I would be extremely pissed

 

That's a good analogy.

 

BTW, if we say goodbye to these privacy freedoms, are we essentially giving up fourth amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure as it relates to traffic stops, warrants for searching homes, etc?

Just to put in LP context, I am ok with the management/mods to know my email address and IP, monitor public postings but if you read any of my private messages I would be extremely pissed

 

Wait... you're under the impression they DON'T read your PMs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a good analogy.

 

BTW, if we say goodbye to these privacy freedoms, are we essentially giving up fourth amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure as it relates to traffic stops, warrants for searching homes, etc?

 

 

See the police actions in the boston bombings... the general public is very much ok with opening their doors in their perceived interest of safety.

 

 

I know what you are saying however if the government were throwing up Drones up in the air and were monitoring your route to work then I would see that the uproar is fully justified.

 

These tech firms have become too powerful, they gather too much info. That is the elephant in the room.

 

It's still the government that decides to ask the tech firms for all the info they have.

World is becoming more and more like iRobot. Haha funny but not.

 

I'm pretty sure we have some major issues that need to be tackled in the US. One is our Fing debt. The biggest problem I see is the government has gotten way too big. They have forgotten they work for the people. Not control or be superior of the people.

 

I got where I don't even want to see the news. It's all just too much and pisses me off. Especially with how much money I give those government fucks in taxes.

 

A major problem is the younger generation doesnt give two cents. All they care about is their status on Facebook and social media.

The biggest problem I see is the government has gotten way too big. They have forgotten they work for the people. Not control or be superior of the people.

 

Honestly.... That happened about 9 years into the Republic.

Wait... you're under the impression they DON'T read your PMs?

 

 

 

I didn't say they don't I just said I would be extremely pissed

Honestly.... That happened about 9 years into the Republic.

 

 

Very true! At what point does it get bad enough where people stop what they are doing and put a fight up?

 

I didn't say they don't I just said I would be extremely pissed

 

Haha this is hilarious..... Not only that but they delete threads. I had a thread in the twin turbo section about straight pipes on my TT 570 and it got deleted. Guess because it wasnt an UGR car....

Very true! At what point does it get bad enough where people stop what they are doing and put a fight up?

 

 

 

Haha this is hilarious..... Not only that but they delete threads. I had a thread in the twin turbo section about straight pipes on my TT 570 and it got deleted. Guess because it wasnt an UGR car....

 

Don't get your panties in a bunch. This comment was still left up wasn't it?

Don't get your panties in a bunch. This comment was still left up wasn't it?

 

 

Haha was just saying.....

 

I dont really care, I just thought it was funny. Guys are talking about PMs and things so I thought I would share.

So General Alexander was blatantly lying.

On July 9, 2012, when asked by a member of the press if a large data center in Utah was used to store data on American citizens, Alexander stated, "No. While I can't go into all the details on the Utah data center, we don't hold data on U.S. citizens."[10]

 

In March 2012, in response to questions about allegations made by former NSA officials that the NSA engages in collection of voice and digital information of U.S. citizens Alexander was asked in a number of ways, and replied that despite the allegations of "James Bashford" [sic] in Wired, the NSA does not collect that data.[11] At DEF CON 2012, in response to the question "Does the NSA really keep a file on everyone, and if so, how can I see mine?" Alexander replied "Our job is foreign intelligence" and that "Those who would want to weave the story that we have millions or hundreds of millions of dossiers on people, is absolutely false…From my perspective, this is absolute nonsense."[11]

So General Alexander was blatantly lying.

On July 9, 2012, when asked by a member of the press if a large data center in Utah was used to store data on American citizens, Alexander stated, "No. While I can't go into all the details on the Utah data center, we don't hold data on U.S. citizens."[10]

 

In March 2012, in response to questions about allegations made by former NSA officials that the NSA engages in collection of voice and digital information of U.S. citizens Alexander was asked in a number of ways, and replied that despite the allegations of "James Bashford" [sic] in Wired, the NSA does not collect that data.[11] At DEF CON 2012, in response to the question "Does the NSA really keep a file on everyone, and if so, how can I see mine?" Alexander replied "Our job is foreign intelligence" and that "Those who would want to weave the story that we have millions or hundreds of millions of dossiers on people, is absolutely false…From my perspective, this is absolute nonsense."[11]

 

Perhaps not.

 

They may not be actively keeping or "storing" dossiers on people.

 

They may define their usage of filters with the data "as it happens" doesn't constitute storage in the traditional sense. Heck they probably say dossier believing it to be a old-fashioned paper file on an individual. So in essence, they are not lying when they say they don't have nor keep them. Perhaps if we knew what they called their digital files, it may be another issue.

 

Dishonest for sure. But technically lying...jury is out on that one.

 

Perhaps not.

 

They may not be actively keeping or "storing" dossiers on people.

 

They may define their usage of filters with the data "as it happens" doesn't constitute storage in the traditional sense. Heck they probably say dossier believing it to be a old-fashioned paper file on an individual. So in essence, they are not lying when they say they don't have nor keep them. Perhaps if we knew what they called their digital files, it may be another issue.

 

Dishonest for sure. But technically lying...jury is out on that one.

 

Its a "what the definition of is, is" answer... The NSA GATHERS intelligence... And the Utah facility will be like the worlds largest fishing net of sigint. Its up to other alphabet agencys to ANALYZE it...

 

 

So the question is like asking a fisherman, "Do you make the Fish & Chips at Red Lobster?" "NO." (I provide the fish, somebody else fillets it and somebody else cooks it... Then a waiter brings it to your table).

 

Bottom line, EVERY phone line in the country will be routed through that facility... Call your next door neigbor? The call goes from Detroit, to Utah and back to Detroit.

I'm surprised no one is also focusing on what the Wired article mentioned as well, which is not just the storage capabilities of this facility, but the fact that they have possibly created a supercomputer that is able to break the encryption standards currently in use. In the article, it is said that they made a big breakthrough. From an engineering standpoint, I find this fascinating as I love the subject of computer architecture.

 

I also think that if the technology exists to build such a machine, our government should have it, because otherwise the Chinese and/or Russians will eventually get something like it. BUT, such a machine with such massive storage and code-cracking capabilities (especially if it can read all sorts of stuff thought to be unbreakable) requires immense responsibility on the part of the users.

 

Like a real-life version of Batman's machine from The Dark Knight.

NSA acknowledges listening to U.S. Phone calls without warrants.

 

 

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Just got this email from Papa Google and all I could think about was this thread.

 

What it read in my tinfoil mind. "Keep all of your pictures, videos, emails, calls, and any other communication without having to submit them. Google has teamed with the NSA to backup this data whether you want to or not. To opt out of this service please eliminate all forms of communication henceforth."