McLaren P1 vs. Bugatti Veyron

Even more on topic.....

 

Jump or no, DAT KERS!

 

For the engineers 'ahem emanon' I certainly see an advantage from standstill Kers vs quad turbo. In this roll in race with the turbos in spool does the Kers power delivery type still put it at an advantage.

 

Maybe just slightly, but it really depends on a number of factors with starting speed of the roll being one of the most critical. The lower the speed, the more it's going to benefit the KERS in response as well as fighting the 1300lb weight difference in the Bug.

 

In a short run say 60-120 I would expect the P1 to win, (based on weight and hp) but it will be REALLY close. Beyond that, weight is less of a factor and the unrelenting power of the bug will eat it alive, especially around 150 or so when the P1 electric motors cut out, and at the worst possible time it's down 175hp.

 

In a drag race, 9 times out of 10 the Bug should do what 1200hp vs 900hp does. This is assuming you're playing with a Vitesse or SS. If you're slumming it in one of those antiquated 1001hp relics, it will be a harder fight.

 

 

Really? I can't say I am surprised by your comment, for some reason you have very little "love" for me in spite of your claims during our PM exchanges I always knew the way you felt about me, it's all good, you are entitled to your own opinion.

 

I have never insulted you, en contraire, I had only words of admiration and respect for you so please return the favor, please do not insult me, the only thing I am trying to do is contribute to this community with offering my opinions and sharing experiences, if that pisses you off there is nothing I can do about it, that's something you have to deal with, if I am incorrect I am happy for you to bring it to my attention, I will apologise and rectify it but that won't happen very often because I generally think before I speak

 

 

Let me clarify few things for you because I see you are getting quite emotional about this, the discussion/exchange between RB and LP Daddy stems from things which were said during a conversation which you were NOT part of, you must've misunderstood me, I have never said you can't have an opinion what I meant was that you aren't qualified, in this instance, to offer your opinion relating to this particular exchange because you were NOT there, does this make sense now?

 

 

As you can see for yourself the issue was addressed in private by both of them and now it's all water under the bridge, that's the reason why I was backing up LP Daddy, I was aware of the situation first hand, situation resolved life goes on.

 

Fortis, I have always said and still believe you are an asset to the forum here. Your are obviously intelligent, well spoken, and successful with lots of life experience, and I value your opinions. What I have a problem with is your "know it all attitude" on nearly every single topic on here. I feel that you always act like you are the most qualified person on every subject, the resident expert, and it comes off as condescending and superior. That may fly with many people on here, but as you have come to realize it wont fly when it's directed at me. I have spoken to many members outside of the forum and others share the same sentiment. They can speak up if they want, but I would rather they didn't because this has already been blown way out of proportion thanks to Lpdaddy.

 

As far as Lpdaddy defaming RB on a public forum, there is no excuse for that. I know Kris a lot better than you do, and the negative things said about him here could not be farther from the truth. He is the most genuine and giving guy I know, and my relationship with him makes me more than qualified to comment on his character. I cannot understand how some very brief, 5 minute encounter with Kris could cause someone to have such an insane amount of hatred for him. What could he have possibly done in such a short time frame to warrant this type of outburst? After several attempts to get to the heart of the issue, neither of you have offered up any real details to the cause, so I have no choice but to assume this hatred is rooted in jealousy.

 

In any event, what happened in some 5 minute conversation in Italy that rubbed you and Lpdaddy the wrong way should have no bearing on what happened here in this thread. The fact that you are telling me not to insult you while at the same time endorsing another person's horrific actions is a level of hypocrisy I have never seen out of you.

 

As far as there being a resolution to this situation between Lpdaddy and RB, we have yet to hear from RB, so we don't really know where things stand. We only know what Lpdaddy said about it, and I didn't see even the slightest hint of admitting any wrong doing. As long as those harsh statements stay on a public forum, I personally don't consider anything resolved, and no self respecting person should either.

 

This is a Lambo forum with a lot of exotic car owners. Egos, arrogance, and strong opinions are bound to be rampant, and sometimes they get the best of us. At the end of the day this is just a car forum, something we do for fun, and we are all here voluntarily. There is no reason for things to get out of hand, and its our duty as members and moderators to keep things on track and civil when discussions get heated. I would hate to see a lot of good members leave and go elsewhere because the wrong person got their panties in a wad over nothing, and couldn't control their actions.

Fortis, I have always said and still believe you are an asset to the forum here. Your are obviously intelligent, well spoken, and successful with lots of life experience, and I value your opinions. What I have a problem with is your "know it all attitude" on nearly every single topic on here. I feel that you always act like you are the most qualified person on every subject, the resident expert, and it comes off as condescending and superior. That may fly with many people on here, but as you have come to realize it wont fly when it's directed at me. I have spoken to many members outside of the forum and others share the same sentiment. They can speak up if they want, but I would rather they didn't because this has already been blown way out of proportion thanks to Lpdaddy.

 

As far as Lpdaddy defaming RB on a public forum, there is no excuse for that. I know Kris a lot better than you do, and the negative things said about him here could not be farther from the truth. He is the most genuine and giving guy I know, and my relationship with him makes me more than qualified to comment on his character. I cannot understand how some very brief, 5 minute encounter with Kris could cause someone to have such an insane amount of hatred for him. What could he have possibly done in such a short time frame to warrant this type of outburst? After several attempts to get to the heart of the issue, neither of you have offered up any real details to the cause, so I have no choice but to assume this hatred is rooted in jealousy.

 

In any event, what happened in some 5 minute conversation in Italy that rubbed you and Lpdaddy the wrong way should have no bearing on what happened here in this thread. The fact that you are telling me not to insult you while at the same time endorsing another person's horrific actions is a level of hypocrisy I have never seen out of you.

 

As far as there being a resolution to this situation between Lpdaddy and RB, we have yet to hear from RB, so we don't really know where things stand. We only know what Lpdaddy said about it, and I didn't see even the slightest hint of admitting any wrong doing. As long as those harsh statements stay on a public forum, I personally don't consider anything resolved, and no self respecting person should either.

 

This is a Lambo forum with a lot of exotic car owners. Egos, arrogance, and strong opinions are bound to be rampant, and sometimes they get the best of us. At the end of the day this is just a car forum, something we do for fun, and we are all here voluntarily. There is no reason for things to get out of hand, and its our duty as members and moderators to keep things on track and civil when discussions get heated. I would hate to see a lot of good members leave and go elsewhere because the wrong person got their panties in a wad over nothing, and couldn't control their actions.

 

 

A generally reasonable comment from a generally reasonable guy, thanks A. Fortis is also good people, I don't agree he is condescending, neither of you are, you guys need to head to PM and sort things out.

 

You are correct we haven't heard from RB yet, however LPDaddy is a moderator and has stated we should get back on track which is a great idea.

 

 

 

We're now on magenta alert in this thread guys, no point for anyone to get probation or banned as collateral damage, the principals have sorted things out, here's another moderator stating we get back on topic.

We're getting so bad at fighting on LP... even the insults have "with all due respect" before them, then a slight pinch... lol

 

Glad some LP heavyweights were able to resolve their differences. I only caught up to this thread on page 7, so it was an interesting read with a happy ending.

 

Just to the point of people confusing P1 with 650S... I just can't see that happening. Maybe somebody who's not familiar with cars at all and doesn't even know what a McLaren is would confuse them, but not anyone with any knowledge of the brand. And even if they do, I thought it wasn't about what the public thought and more what spoke to the owner to buy the car.

 

Unfortunately, it has happened and will continue to happen. No other hypercar available today can be mistaken for their less expensive (non hypercar) counterparts except for the P1/650s. Its just not going to happen with a La F, 918, Bugatti, Veneno, or Pagani. Its not supposed to be what the public thinks, but my opinion is that hypercars need to differentiate themselves from their less expensive models enough to warrant the extra expense. It is just my opinion that the P1 does the worst job of this out of the hypercars, and it doesn't mean it isn't a cool car or that it's not worth owning, it's just 1 component I look for when deciding which hypercar to buy. Let's not forget that I was seriously considering buying the P1 on multiple occasions, and I have concluded for the reason above and other reasons that it is just not worth the $1.15 million price tag. I am one of the biggest proponents of Mclaren and have been since the start. I owned a 12c coupe, now own a 12 spider, and I can see myself getting into a 650s spider at some point, but for my hypercar money I would rather have the Bugatti.

 

 

the weight will always play a factor, going faster doesn't make it easier to move mass, especially in these cars where the downforce increases with speed... the McLaren has DRS (Drag Reduction System) for straight line work.... not sure about the Veyron...

 

P1 vs Veryron SS, P1 still has a power to weight advantage, and better gearing to it's top speed... top speed to 217MPH with 7 gears vs top speed to 253 MPH with 7 gears, something has to give...

 

and who says the electric motor cuts out at 150MPH, that's crazy talk..

 

 

 

 

Maybe just slightly, but it really depends on a number of factors with starting speed of the roll being one of the most critical. The lower the speed, the more it's going to benefit the KERS in response as well as fighting the 1300lb weight difference in the Bug.

 

In a short run say 60-120 I would expect the P1 to win, (based on weight and hp) but it will be REALLY close. Beyond that, weight is less of a factor and the unrelenting power of the bug will eat it alive, especially around 150 or so when the P1 electric motors cut out, and at the worst possible time it's down 175hp.

 

In a drag race, 9 times out of 10 the Bug should do what 1200hp vs 900hp does. This is assuming you're playing with a Vitesse or SS. If you're slumming it in one of those antiquated 1001hp relics, it will be a harder fight.

We're getting so bad at fighting on LP... even the insults have "with all due respect" before them, then a slight pinch... lol

 

 

If youre referring to me

 

Im getting older and wiser. No need to tear someone apart just because you disagree.

 

Still calling stuff like I see it though

 

Glad to see the peace pipe being smoked. A pitched battle between members and mods was certainly not my intention.

the weight will always play a factor, going faster doesn't make it easier to move mass, especially in these cars where the downforce increases with speed... the McLaren has DRS (Drag Reduction System) for straight line work.... not sure about the Veyron...

 

P1 vs Veryron SS, P1 still has a power to weight advantage, and better gearing to it's top speed... top speed to 217MPH with 7 gears vs top speed to 253 MPH with 7 gears, something has to give...

 

and who says the electric motor cuts out at 150MPH, that's crazy talk..

 

As you slow the rate of acceleration then weight is absolutely less of a factor. Look at land speed cars. And the power to weight is extremely close on the two cars, but the torque in the V kills the P1. So as you slow the rate of acceleration coupled with fighting drag, the brute raw hp of the V starts to pull.

 

I could be mistaking the p1 with another car, possibly those with front wheels driven by the electric motors, but I was under the impression they cut out at a certain point. If not, then carry on.

 

Check and see which car gets to 300 Kph quicker. The V-SS puts something like 2 seconds on the P1 to

300, which is a gap of ~550 FT! (14.6 vs P1 claimed 16.5) They are very close to 120mph, but from 120-186 the Veyron starts pulling on it HARD. If you ran them both to the P1's top speed, the veyron would be out of sight by the time the P1 got there.

the weight will always play a factor, going faster doesn't make it easier to move mass, especially in these cars where the downforce increases with speed... the McLaren has DRS (Drag Reduction System) for straight line work.... not sure about the Veyron...

 

P1 vs Veryron SS, P1 still has a power to weight advantage, and better gearing to it's top speed... top speed to 217MPH with 7 gears vs top speed to 253 MPH with 7 gears, something has to give...

 

and who says the electric motor cuts out at 150MPH, that's crazy talk..

 

I agree that weight will always play a factor. The P1 and Supersports are very similar in acceleration from a roll, the P1 probably has a very slight edge, and I give the slight edge to the SS from a stop. I do not know if the batteries go off after a certain MPH, but that would be some good info to clarify. At the end of the day those who are looking to buy either the P1 or SS will not base their buying decision on which one will win a drag or roll on race. Its like comparing the Aventador to the F12, which one is faster is a non factor. All the hyper cars are fast, and the decisions are based on many other factors. For example I prefer the 918 over the P1 because the roof comes off and can be stored in the trunk. Top down experience is always more fun in my opinion which is why I love the Aventador roadster and Mclaren spider so much more than I ever did the coupe.

happy 10th anniversary LP.

 

 

this test has the Veyron SS 0-300 in 17.5, now what, is the P1 300 feet ahead?

 

 

no way the SS would be 550 feet head at 186 MPH....

 

 

As you slow the rate of acceleration then weight is absolutely less of a factor. Look at land speed cars. And the power to weight is extremely close on the two cars, but the torque in the V kills the P1. So as you slow the rate of acceleration coupled with fighting drag, the brute raw hp of the V starts to pull.

 

I could be mistaking the p1 with another car, possibly those with front wheels driven by the electric motors, but I was under the impression they cut out at a certain point. If not, then carry on.

 

Check and see which car gets to 300 Kph quicker. The V-SS puts something like 2 seconds on the P1 to

300, which is a gap of ~550 FT! (14.6 vs P1 claimed 16.5) They are very close to 120mph, but from 120-186 the Veyron starts pulling on it HARD. If you ran them both to the P1's top speed, the veyron would be out of sight by the time the P1 got there.

 

this test has the Veyron SS 0-300 in 17.5, now what, is the P1 300 feet ahead?

 

 

no way the SS would be 550 feet head at 186 MPH....

 

I was going off published claimed times. Don't know that an independent test has been done on the P1 to compare it that way.

 

If you just look at hp/lb the cars are close, TQ/lb and the V is way out front.

 

Or lets make a comparison. Assume all vehicles have equal frontal area and equal drag CD.

 

One has 1000hp and weighs 4000 lbs, Another has 500hp and weighs 2000 lbs, and the third has 250hp and weighs 1000lbs. They have an absolutely equal power to weight ratio of 1:4.

 

Which one will have a higher top speed?

 

Because mass had a lesser effect as the rate of acceleration decreases (by the square), the car with more power will have a much higher top speed despite the weight. Or in the case of the P1 vs V, the V will maintain a higher rate of acceleration as the speed increases due to the P1 reaching the edge of it's physical limitations and will better battle things like aerodynamic and mechanical friction.

 

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to muddle this up with science and all that nonsense. Can we get back to the bickering now, it was way more entertaining.

I'm pretty sure the Veyron SS' claimed 0-300kph of 14.6s has never been achieved by independent testers, it actually runs in the 17s range as FiskeSTS showed above. In a drag race with a P1 I imagine the P1 could pull a bit of a lead from 80-140 because of the shorter gearing/instant torque/weight, but the Veyron should take it above 140. Another thing to consider is aero too, the P1 generates much more downforce (even in top speed mode) than the Veyron SS IIRC. That would severely limit its top end acceleration but aid in lower speed acceleration, which I imagine is why it is able to run 9.8 @ 149mph in the quarter. A great example of this was at the recent HyperMax V200+ event at Bruntingthorpe, where the P1 trapped 207mph on the straight, but the more slippery, lighter, and 100hp less Koenigsegg CCX trapped 211mph. I imagine the P1 would smoke that car from 0-150 too but once you reach those higher speeds aero becomes a huge factor.

 

 

 

same gearing as well?

 

If you're going to quote mathematical equations, then let's see them worked out... I'm interested to see how it plays out...

 

 

 

 

I was going off published claimed times. Don't know that an independent test has been done on the P1 to compare it that way.

 

If you just look at hp/lb the cars are close, TQ/lb and the V is way out front.

 

Or lets make a comparison. Assume all vehicles have equal frontal area and equal drag CD.

 

One has 1000hp and weighs 4000 lbs, Another has 500hp and weighs 2000 lbs, and the third has 250hp and weighs 1000lbs. They have an absolutely equal power to weight ratio of 1:4.

 

Which one will have a higher top speed?

 

Because mass had a lesser effect as the rate of acceleration decreases (by the square), the car with more power will have a much higher top speed despite the weight. Or in the case of the P1 vs V, the V will maintain a higher rate of acceleration as the speed increases due to the P1 reaching the edge of it's physical limitations and will better battle things like aerodynamic and mechanical friction.

 

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to muddle this up with science and all that nonsense. Can we get back to the bickering now, it was way more entertaining.

same gearing as well?

 

If you're going to quote mathematical equations, then let's see them worked out... I'm interested to see how it plays out...

 

I'll have to get back to you on typing it all out when I get home from the office.

 

For fun, here is an online calculator that essentially just does the calculations for you. There are a number of them available online if you look around. For the sake of these calculations it's a constant that the power quoted is the power required at that exact speed in whatever engine rpm it would be turning. If you gear the car to go 268mph at 2000 rpm, it needs to make 1192hp at 2000 rpm. So it eliminates the gearing equation which just lets you use the power optimally, which is what we're assuming.

 

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/aerohpcalc.html

 

The Veyron SS has a Cd of .39. I use a weight of 4400 lbs, a frontal area of 18.25 sq/ft, and a maximum speed of 268 mph. This gives me a "HP Needed" of 1192.58.

 

If I reduce the weight to 2200 lbs, the "HP Needed" dramatically drops to 1126.94. So the reduction in mass amounted to needing 65 less hp.

 

Now with the weight at 2200lbs, I'll reduce the mph until we get in the area of 596hp. That puts our top speed down at 216.5mph. Just for a double check, lets put the weight BACK UP to 4400 lbs. That changes the "HP Needed" to 634, or a 38hp difference due to mass.

 

So as I was saying, total mass has very little effect on terminal velocity outside of minimal changes in rolling resistance.

P1 got the jump but the driver in the Bug totally fell asleep

.

thanks for the laugh...

the Veyron in the video was sleeping big time. Those 2 need a race from a dig to 200. I would say the SS Veyron wins. A standard Veyron would get waxed. P1 traps 148 vs 140 standard Veyron .

 

 

The F1 is very impressive but it was not street legal. They're all here on Show and Display

 

Some are most certainly street legal. The Ameritech cars are not mileage limited in any way.

Some are most certainly street legal. The Ameritech cars are not mileage limited in any way.

 

Those Ameritech cars were modified to have less power, the 3 seat configuration was removed, and they added ugly bumpers/exterior parts to them. All that to get them through some loophole similar to show and display. The bottom line is, the F1 was never a bona fide street legal production car in the US, and IMO just because something is legal to drive on the street, that does not mean it was a street legal production car in the strictest sense.

 

For those interested, attached is a PDF that shows all the cars eligible for show and display in the US.

showandisplay.pdf

Those Ameritech cars were modified to have less power, the 3 seat configuration was removed, and they added ugly bumpers/exterior parts to them. All that to get them through some loophole similar to show and display. The bottom line is, the F1 was never a bona fide street legal production car in the US, and IMO just because something is legal to drive on the street, that does not mean it was a street legal production car in the strictest sense.

 

For those interested, attached is a PDF that shows all the cars eligible for show and display in the US.

 

The "modifications" were purposely done to be removed without any damage, and quickly. All have been returned to "normal" afaik.

 

The point is, some are fully road legal ( they carry Ameritech vins on the sills ), but I see your point.

Those Ameritech cars were modified to have less power, the 3 seat configuration was removed, and they added ugly bumpers/exterior parts to them. All that to get them through some loophole similar to show and display. The bottom line is, the F1 was never a bona fide street legal production car in the US, and IMO just because something is legal to drive on the street, that does not mean it was a street legal production car in the strictest sense.

 

For those interested, attached is a PDF that shows all the cars eligible for show and display in the US.

That is interesting. I did not know the F1 wasnt road legal in the US. Looses a lot of appeal now, except for investment reasons. Not that I could afford a $10 million car anyway.

 

Thanks for the PDF.

 

What is the story with the Koenigsegg then? The one Webster has is here fully legal not on a Show and Display, but that is the only one or are there more?

Just finished reading all 8 pages.....

 

Looks to me like the driver in the bug must have been eating lunch went the "race" started.

 

Think they should link up again and give it another go!

That is interesting. I did not know the F1 wasnt road legal in the US. Looses a lot of appeal now, except for investment reasons. Not that I could afford a $10 million car anyway.

 

Thanks for the PDF.

 

What is the story with the Koenigsegg then? The one Webster has is here fully legal not on a Show and Display, but that is the only one or are there more?

 

Koenigsegg received an exemption from fulfilling the Smart airbag requirements (which includes lots of crash testing and a big investment) from 2008-2012. This meant any cars built between 2008-12 could, as long as they fulfilled other US requirements such as emissions and side indicators, be legally imported and registered in the US. 12 cars (all CCX/CCXRs) were delivered to the US in this time, and those 12 are forever exempt. Koenigsegg was also able to squeeze in BC's car (although that was never fulfilled due to BC canceling his order) and Webster's car under the previous exemption even though they are MY13s (I believe.) Webster's car is also fully exempt for life. Since the exemption expired, and since the NHTSA is no longer giving out exemptions (which is why Pagani had to make the investment after being denied), Koenigsegg has indicated they will bring in any new Ageras under Show and Display, although that has yet to be done. Manhattan Motorcars also secured the rights to a One:1, which Koenigsegg has said will comply with the Smart airbag requirements, although that would require some type of exemption from crash testing that I'm not currently aware of.

 

The next Koenigsegg model (2016ish probably) will be fully US legal though.

Interesting results from vmax different drivers, etc so a bit of variance in that but interesting none the less

 

Koenigsegg CCX 211

911 9E GT 210

McLaren P1 209

RUF CTR3 207

Audi R8 V10 TT 205

Lamborghini Aventador AVV 204

Ferrari F12 202

Ferrari Enzo 201

Porsche 991 Turbo 201

Porsche 993 GT2 201

Porsche Carrera GT 199

Porsche 997 Turbo Cab 199

Ford GT 198

Nissan GTR 198

Ferrari FF 197

Ultima 1000 GTR 197

Porsche 991 Turbo S 196

Lambo Gallardo Superleggera 196

Porsche 997 GT2 196

Porsche 996 Turbo S 196

Porsche 997 Turbo S Cab 195

Lamborghini Gallardo 195

Ford GT 193

Audi R8 V10 192

Porsche 997 Turbo2 192

Ferrari 458 Speciale 192

Ferrari 458 Spider 192

Mercedes CLK DTM 191

Ferrari 458 191

Audi R8 V10 191

Ferrari 458 Spider 191

Lambo Gallardo 191

McLaren SLR 190

McLaren 650 S 190

Audi R8 GT 189

Shelby GT500 189

Nissan GTR 188

Merc SLS 187

Ultima GTR 186

Audi R8 V10 185

Lambo Gallardo LP560-4 Spyder 181

Jaguar F-Type 180

Porsche 997 GT3 180

Bentley Continental GT Speed 179

Bentley GT Speed 175

Porsche Cayman S 175

Porsche Boxster S 175

Aston Martin Vantage S roadster 173

What an interesting thread.

 

At the end of the day any forum is simply building anecdotal and qualitative data for us to use in deciding which cars to love and buy. There are magazines, performance tests, and manufacturer data to give us the numbers to make decisions from but these comments supplement that with true owner remarks, experiences, and opinions.

 

To that end comments from people like Kris and Aaron are extremely valuable because, regardless of their motivation, they have actual experience with the cars. Sometimes they may not be presented in a diplomatic way and none of us are race car drivers but anyone who doesn't give credence to what they say should definitely question the motivation for using a reference like this.

 

The 650S/P1, Aventador/Veneno, Speciale/F12/ThethetheFerrari questions of value will always come up. There is not enough marginal space for performance improvement to justify the price premium in most cases but the value is based much more on production numbers and exclusivity. As far as that goes, it is always tough to beat the Veneno.

 

Depending on the criteria it is hard to say that there is a faster US Legal NA (non-hybrid) car than an LP720 Aventador and the expectation would obviously be than a Veneno would be faster than that. I don't see a valid argument against this claim.

 

All good fun and certainly entertaining.