Construction Defects -- New Build

A little background. We live in AZ and placed a deposit on a Toll Brothers build back in February. We really liked the model and bought because of the design and Toll's reputation. Toll is a semi-custom tract builder but it is still a cookie cutter home. Probably a big part of the problem. Sorry for the length of the post but here goes.

 

From the start of construction, the build process has been one mistake after another with some other notable issues. Almost every trade has performed what seems like shoddy work as well. The first issue was as simple as them not forming the foundation correctly. We opted for a 4' garage extension and they had left that out. We caught it, notified the builder, and thought we saved a lot of heartache. Our construction supervisor was let go shortly after this. In came a new one, who appeared to get things on track.

 

The next problem I noticed was that they had put the grounding rod for the electrical panel on the wrong side of the slab. Their solution was to run an ugly copper wire from the electrical box through the base of the exterior wall to an external grounding rod. Said it was within code. Not happy about that. During framing, they put a closet in the wrong place. Both the sup and I caught it and was fixed. Other than that framing appeared to be ok. We now know it wasn't. Will get to that in a bit.

 

We went through our pre-drywall inspection and everything was in place. Drywall was next. During intial drywall, I noticed some wire outlets had been moved from the specified locations. I told the sup and those are yet to be fixed. A notable thing happened during this stage. A worker defecated in one of the bathtubs in my girls future bathroom (I have pictures of this and of all of the other problems). This lit me up. I texted my sup and told him this needs addressed asap. The whole house was somewhat cleaned along with the tub.

 

The rest of the drywall, texture, and paint was completed. The cabinets went in fine. Then the workers mistakenly installed the standard wood shelving in our some of our bedroom closets. We had specified a custom closet system in these rooms. Those had to be torn out damaging the original drywall. The drywall was repaired but they installed the custom closets in before re-painting the wall where the drywall repair had occurred. My sup said it was no big deal and industry practice to do this. They would just paint around the custom closet system. Basically his theory is if you don't see it, then it's ok. This screw up also shows a lack of communication between Toll and its sub-contractors.

 

But wait, there's more. The counters went in next and they put the wrong countertops in our laundry room. Again, a lack of communication and control over the subs. We notified our sup and those are yet to be replaced. They also put an exterior window where we ordered an interior transom window. It looks terrible and we are having to be insistent on that. They're trying to weasel out of fixing that one when the paperwork clearly shows an interior window.

 

In the garage, they installed the railing and doors prior to any paint application. As a result, the rails and hardware now have overspray on them and I want them replaced or cleaned up. They are custom high rise doors so I can put a lift in both of the garages. Sup says it's a normal order of doing things. I disagree and told him this was a first in a build for me. Fighting over that one.

 

In goes the plumbing. Well, here's another disgusting thing that happens. The plumber blew his nose on my garage wall just above the soft water loop. It's evident. I take a picture and now call my sup's boss. He assures me that they will scrub the wall and retexture, etc.

 

Moving outside, the drive and pavers are installed front and back. In our front courtyard, the pavers are uneven with a wave pattern. They're supposed to slope to two drainage ducts. Sup notified and yet to be fixed. We also noticed a clean out drain pipe that is slightly protruding from the exterior foundation stem wall. Sup says that is normal and not a big deal. They flask over it with some cement and paint the stem wall.

 

Back to the the inside and to the last few days. Drywall repairs and final coat of paint in progress. They install our window shutters before final paint application--right over unpainted drywall repairs. Face plant. Sup knows and said it was done without his approval. More damage to original drywall to come. They have to remove the shutters, fix the drywall, paint, and put new shutters in. Another problem with control over subs. Finally, back to the framing we thought was ok. Today, we noticed a wall completely out of square in a powder room that was not too well lit during the process. A couple of others are this way as well but not as blatant.

 

Throughout the process the workers have left their trash all over the inside and outside of the house. This includes half-eaten food with accompanying ants. They tried to leave beer bottles, Gatorade bottles, etc. in the walls during the framing process. Fortunately, I was out there quite a bit and disposed of them myself.

 

So, this is where we are now. Under three weeks to our first walk through. I just wrote the VP of construction a letter earlier this week outlining all of the problems we have had. He does not know about the out of square walls and the sup has not noticed them. I give him an even more thorough rundown than I have here. He asks how he can rectify the situation. I told to him that if we knew the process was going to be this difficult and stressful, we would have never bought this home. I tell him that in addition to fixing all of the issues, a financial incentive towards the house was in order. He replies that the house is not done and that he's not inclined to provide a financial incentive. He promises to deliver a home in perfect condition. Again, he does not know of the messed up walls.

 

We plan on waiting to the walk through to point this out. There are a couple of other big issues we know about as well. Do you all think we have any legal recourse? I have pictures of all of the defects including the gross incidents. I have thought of threatening him with the BBB, media, and Registrar of Contractors. I don't think a reduction in price of the home is out of bounds or a full refund of our deposit. Thoughts from gallery--especially those in the construction industry or law.

 

Thanks a bunch!

Sounds like a nightmare, I hate dodgy builders/subcontractors, I suggest to wait until the whole thing is done, I am not saying that you are wrong on your evaluations but in some instances people whom aren’t accustomed to building perceive the building process in quite a different manner than it actually is.

 

I go absolutely ballistic if I see any of the contractors leave junk behind or a maintain dirt site during construction.

The building process is a nightmare. Managing minimum wage employees most of the time don't give a shit what they are doing. Your process does not sound too out of the normal however things that are not per print/spec then yes they should be rectified. Not sure there is a legal leg to stand on as I am sure that would just be a pissing contest of money in common pleas court. Hope the process smooths out for you and you get to enjoy the headaches.

is this the first house/property you have built?

 

...most of the times process is a nightmare and a lot of the things you're writing about are actually preety common in certain contractors.

 

hold on tight!

Unfortunately, everything you have mentioned is common, you only caught it because you are paying close attention. The same issues you are having are not exclusive to residential construction. I have been on $30m-$115m apartment projects on the GC side, nothing changes at this level.

We added a bathroom to an existing room this year. Sounds about right. Trash left, using unauthorized bathrooms. Broken things that were not refixed, subs overpricing things. Contractor randomly going on vacation So completion put on hold. This was an easy project.

 

In our first starter house which some of the subs were fired so they set a few of the unfinished houses on fire and shit in a couple of walls. Fortunately our house wasn’t involved.

 

My in laws live in a toll bros community. Their house has been fine and toll brothers have been responsive to any problems they had, even a couple after the warranty was over.

 

 

Most people do not go to the build every day like it sounds like you do and they don't see all this stuff but it always goes on. At least you were able to catch most things. Personally I would drop the things like blowing the nose on the wall and stick to the real issues that are most important to you. In the big scheme contractors leaving trash and a little overspray are no big deals, the pavers and drainage and wrong windows and issues like that are what I would focus on.

Not to breeze over all the issues you outlined but I really cant wrap my head around the guy who shit in the bathtub. Totally puzzled. Was he angry? Did he feel the portable facilities on site weren't roomy enough? Is that just his favorite place to go? So weird.

Not to breeze over all the issues you outlined but I really cant wrap my head around the guy who shit in the bathtub. Totally puzzled. Was he angry? Did he feel the portable facilities on site weren't roomy enough? Is that just his favorite place to go? So weird.

 

Either tub shitter guy has worked all over, or there are a lot of tub shitters. I have seen that move on almost every project I have been involved in.

Most likely a pissed off or fired sub. Nasty but better than concrete down the drains

Time to escalate above the VP immediately. Sounds like you have everything documented. Hopefully, every issue was documented in email with photos as you were going through the process. If the VP wasn't aware of your issues before you approached him, they have a serious organizational issue. That's where you hammer senior management. I'd also talk with a construction defect attorney. Dealing with shoddy contractors is a fcuking nightmare, once you find a reliable one, never change.

 

New home construction defect litigation is a massive business.

In all honesty, this really isn't too surprising at all. Not saying you are being too critical as I would be upset too. But these are not new at all, not isolated incidents as they definitely won't be the last and they aren't targeting your house in particular. Sub-trade crews with God-knows-what background and education doing manual labour of which most are unsupervised until called for and with so many variables. Keep in mind that to them, it's just another job or worse just something they do to bring food on their table; that versus your home-to-be or even your castle so your frustration is well understood. Like others had said, I would focus on the grander scheme of things. Hope that everything will turn out fine in the end.

I work in development for a living and just did basement / bathroom in my personal residence. My advice: Unless you "have to have it now" wait for the market to slow down so you can get qualified subs. Finding the right skilled labor has been as much of an issue on $20mm jobs as it was on a $100k job. There is simply so much demand out there that people can pick and choose their work, perform a shit job, and move on to get in line for the next.

Was the ground rod inside a footer ground? If so than that is correct, no need for ground rods. And you don't have to have 2 ground rods, but that's industry standard and most inspectors want to see 2, at least 8 ft apart. I'd imagine all you're plumbing isn't copper, but if so that also needs to be bonded.

Thanks everyone for the replies. Here's an update. I had a meeting with just my construction supervisor today. It was a very candid conversation. As I said earlier, when he came on, things were initially getting better. Then they took a turn for the worse as described. I laid all of the blame squarely on him and went to his supervisor hoping things would get better. As we all know that did not happen. In fact, they got worse.

 

It turns out that my construction supervisor had his hands tied as to the degree he was authorized to fix things and follow the process by his supervisor and the VP of construction I wrote my letter to. Toll Brothers also has had him stretched way out. Two weeks ago, this construction sup threatened to quit Toll Brothers due to their process and lack of customer care. This man has been in the business over 20 years, which by today's standards is quite a while. He had another job lined up and ready to go. The Director of Operations for Arizona contacted the construction supervisor just two nights ago to find out why he was leaving. The construction sup was candid with the man. The Director was less than happy to find out what's been going on in our community. He admitted fault for not being in touch but also said he felt betrayed by the VP of construction I wrote my letter to and my construction sup's superior--the guy I thought had a handle on things. He did not! The Director pleaded for the Sup to stay and implemented immediate change. He gave my sup the autonomy to fix things as he sees fit.

 

Other folks I have met recently are happy with the sup but not Toll and the others. That made no sense to me until today. Many wrote letters as I did. A few had knowledge that he was giving notice. They wrote letters to the Director mentioned above. That was part of what prompted a call to the sup. I did not know he was leaving because I had been dealing with the construction manager. I placed my trust in the wrong person. Every time I pointed something out to him, he promised to inform my construction sup or rectify it himself. This never occurred. The construction sup and I compared texts today and he was not informed of many of my concerns--a lot of the ones I referenced in my initial post. His boss never passed along the information. He was trying to slink out of getting things fixed right. This guy was not good with confrontation either. Every time I met with him, he tried to deflect or just write things down. He was probably doodling.

 

So guys/gals, I was wrong about the sup and I ate crow as I should have. Our text chains compared next to each other confirm what is going on. The VP of construction and my construction manager are in hot water. My sup, I can say is an honest guy. Great conversation. He spent over an hour with me addressing each and every concern my wife and I had. He has authorization and is going to fix all of the issues. He knew about the crooked walls and had already blue taped them! The house had a pleathora of this on his own account and ours.

 

Where to go from here. We will take delivery of the home--that is done right. However, I will be writing the Director a letter outlining everything that has occurred. He is already somewhat aware now thanks to my sup and other owners. Now he is going to hear from me. He probably won't provide a financial remedy but these other two clowns may very well be looking for other jobs.

 

Sorry for the long post. For those that asked, this is our fourth new home build. I know the construction process is far from perfect. Our last build went so well that I expected this one to be even better because of the price point and Toll reputation. I was wrong but learn every time we build. As many of you have pointed out, there is a qualified labor shortage in construction with current high demand. That certainly explains part of it. The other is Toll's soap opera they have going on in AZ. I'll put my .02 cents on that for sure. Thanks again for your input everyone.

 

The good news is the home will be done about a month before the Performante arrives. It will have a nice new garage to live in. In the grand scheme of things, my wife and I are blessed. We have family first, this new home, and a car that kids dreams are made of. Goodnight everyone.

I went through all that in my last new build. I've had 2 new builds, the first was pretty straight forward. A few minor issues that were fixed within a couple weeks of taking possession.

 

My current house was a nightmare though. Uncapped plumbing FROM the toilet in the powder room that was unnoticed until I moved in and one of the movers used the toilet and I happened to be in the basement. On top of the drain being uncapped, the spout that water would shoot out is about 8-10 inches from an outlet. No closet doors installed, our glass shower wasn't installed, no mirrors, unfinished trim and dry-wall work, the tile still had grout haze all over (literally every place there was tile). Our keyless deadbolt was installed on the wrong door, when we told the guy which door we wanted it on 5 minutes before he installed it. We caught him in the process of installing it and were like "WTF?, we told you the front door??!"

 

We complained a lot. The traders and guys that came over to fix up the place were generally really good. They were stretched really thin as housing construction up in my area was booming, so everyone and their aunt was getting into the industry. The builder in general was crap. Everyone on my street had fairly big issues with their house, from wrong ceiling height (8 foot vs 9 being what it was supposed to be), wrong cabinetry, just poor build quality.

 

So yeah, this crap happens. I hope your house is in better shape when finished than mine. Unfortunately my contract provided the standard wording that the house had to be "inhabitable", which means a roof, water, electricity and a toilet. So I had no choice but to take possession. However, thanks to the warranties regulated up here, we got it fixed.

 

You will have to suffer through a bit. My suggestion is to always be nice to the trades that are there to fix the problems and take out your anger on the people at the office. That seemed to work for me.

They sound like a nightmare and so do you.

 

We do our best work when we are relaxed, and we are relaxed when our clients are relaxed. Having someone breathe down my neck every second is not my idea of good time.

 

Just let them do their job, and don't do site visits everyday. Most of things you mentioned are minor and you make it sound like you're going to have a heart attack.

 

 

The craping in the tub is common now. Not sure why. Most of the time it's your 5 dollar an hour helpers that do that. It's disgusting. It's also a shame that no one takes pride in their work anymore. For those big track builders they have 1 tradesman and 10 helpers/ laborers to slam it in and move on. All about the cheapest price.

Do these types of things happen on the $1m+ market builds???

 

 

just asking...

I'm considering buying some land and building a house for rental purposes (and some personal use) and these sort of issues scare me. How do you avoid getting screwed when it's your 1st build and you don't really know what to look out for?

They sound like a nightmare and so do you.

 

We do our best work when we are relaxed, and we are relaxed when our clients are relaxed. Having someone breathe down my neck every second is not my idea of good time.

 

Just let them do their job, and don't do site visits everyday. Most of things you mentioned are minor and you make it sound like you're going to have a heart attack.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with you about doing our best work when we’re relaxed. It applies in my profession as well. But in this instance, the subs lacked proper supervision because my construction sup was stretched thin and had his hands tied with the ability to remedy problems. He told me so in our conversation yesterday. It’s not just me who is complaining either. Other buyers are upset as well. It sounds like a problem that may or may not be isolated to our community.

 

You’re right, I am picky. It’s the pilot in me. But I’ve always treated those building our home with respect—right down to the guy swinging the hammer. I did not grow up with a lot of money nor am I uber wealthy now. So, when I spend this kind of coin that we’ve worked hard for with a reputable builder, I have certain expectations. I don’t expect perfection but want a quality product. I don’t want Gatorade or beer bottles living in between my walls. I am out at the site 1-3 times a week. I think that is pretty average for someone who lives near the construction.

 

I do appreciate your perspective and we’re still lucky to move into a new home. And, yes, I learn more about construction every time. Have a good weekend.

I agree wholeheartedly with you about doing our best work when we’re relaxed. It applies in my profession as well. But in this instance, the subs lacked proper supervision because my construction sup was stretched thin and had his hands tied with the ability to remedy problems. He told me so in our conversation yesterday. It’s not just me who is complaining either. Other buyers are upset as well. It sounds like a problem that may or may not be isolated to our community.

 

You’re right, I am picky. It’s the pilot in me. But I’ve always treated those building our home with respect—right down to the guy swinging the hammer. I did not grow up with a lot of money nor am I uber wealthy now. So, when I spend this kind of coin that we’ve worked hard for with a reputable builder, I have certain expectations. I don’t expect perfection but want a quality product. I don’t want Gatorade or beer bottles living in between my walls. I am out at the site 1-3 times a week. I think that is pretty average for someone who lives near the construction.

 

I do appreciate your perspective and we’re still lucky to move into a new home. And, yes, I learn more about construction every time. Have a good weekend.

 

 

You've got to remember it's a complete paradox. You have people making $12 an hour building houses worth multi-millions. It makes no sense. They will never appreciate what they are a part of. All they care about is when is beer o'clock and who's bringing the weed. They shit in tubs and think it's funny. They will never pilot a plane and be responsible for hundreds of lives. It makes no fcuking sense at all that they are building your dream home. Anyway my advice is don't stress out, poke around once in awhile but let the site managers do their thing, if it's not right get it fixed. Any mechanical issues talk to emanon first , anything else about building talk to Fortis, I thought I was building good sized projects and then I saw what he was doing

porter

I'm considering buying some land and building a house for rental purposes (and some personal use) and these sort of issues scare me. How do you avoid getting screwed when it's your 1st build and you don't really know what to look out for?

 

Don't stress, it's really not that big of a deal.

 

Approach it like you would any other business transaction, look for the best in your price bracket, get 3 or 4 quotations and compare them, cheapest is almost never the best, have reasonable expectations for your money, make sure you aren't getting ripped, get trade references, withhold progress payments until your supervisor gives the ok (try to work in the contract that you could appoint your own building inspector which will inspect each stage which is deemed to be completed by the builder prior stage payments are released) also make sure that your inspector isn't an unreasonable prick, plenty of those around, you don't want to cause unnecessary strain to your relationship with your builder.

 

Unless you are qualified and understand construction stay out of it because you will only cause yourself angst and unnecessary aggravation. Imagine if I came and looked over your shoulder every minute after I gave you a contract.

 

Don't micromanage it, you are dealing with rough people they don't take very well at you breathing down their necks and they might just shit in your bathtub just to piss you off LOL.

 

Don't worry about certain things until they say this is completed, we are done with it, builders have a set of supervision levels they go through until the very last bit, let them do that, if your supervisor deems the job unacceptable at that point you can smash them hard, NEVER release the last payment until you are fully satisfied. majority of their profit is there so they will be very nice to you.

 

At the end of the day it's just a house, we all have those magic dreams and ideas that our money will buy us perfection but in reality that isn't the case, almost never, if you want perfection if a house build costs X double it then you will get close to perfection otherwise you won't, most people have no idea how tiny the builder's margins are, that's why when issues arise the builders start cutting corners otherwise they will go broke, it's VERY wrong but it is a fact.

 

The biggest issue I see in the industry is builders underquoting works and then try to make up the difference via variations, employ subpar workers, using subpar materials, etc. etc.

 

I just want to clarify, I am involved with construction but I do not work in that section of the industry so I have no interest in convincing you other than trying to give you my opinion on it, I see it all the time, friends come over and ask me to have a look at things asking my opinion on costs etc., I am sometimes shocked when I see quotations, they are so underpriced that there is no way the builder has any margins in it, I always tell them, add 50% and you might have a chance, needless to say I am almost always right LOL they either pay more or they end up in a dispute and unhappy.

 

Anyway good luck

 

 

 

 

 

Don't stress, it's really not that big of a deal.

 

Approach it like you would any other business transaction, look for the best in your price bracket, get 3 or 4 quotations and compare them, cheapest is almost never the best, have reasonable expectations for your money, make sure you aren't getting ripped, get trade references, withhold progress payments until your supervisor gives the ok (try to work in the contract that you could appoint your own building inspector which will inspect each stage which is deemed to be completed by the builder prior stage payments are released) also make sure that your inspector isn't an unreasonable prick, plenty of those around, you don't want to cause unnecessary strain to your relationship with your builder.

 

Unless you are qualified and understand construction stay out of it because you will only cause yourself angst and unnecessary aggravation. Imagine if I came and looked over your shoulder every minute after I gave you a contract.

 

Don't micromanage it, you are dealing with rough people they don't take very well at you breathing down their necks and they might just shit in your bathtub just to piss you off LOL.

 

Don't worry about certain things until they say this is completed, we are done with it, builders have a set of supervision levels they go through until the very last bit, let them do that, if your supervisor deems the job unacceptable at that point you can smash them hard, NEVER release the last payment until you are fully satisfied. majority of their profit is there so they will be very nice to you.

 

At the end of the day it's just a house, we all have those magic dreams and ideas that our money will buy us perfection but in reality that isn't the case, almost never, if you want perfection if a house build costs X double it then you will get close to perfection otherwise you won't, most people have no idea how tiny the builder's margins are, that's why when issues arise the builders start cutting corners otherwise they will go broke, it's VERY wrong but it is a fact.

 

The biggest issue I see in the industry is builders underquoting works and then try to make up the difference via variations, employ subpar workers, using subpar materials, etc. etc.

 

I just want to clarify, I am involved with construction but I do not work in that section of the industry so I have no interest in convincing you other than trying to give you my opinion on it, I see it all the time, friends come over and ask me to have a look at things asking my opinion on costs etc., I am sometimes shocked when I see quotations, they are so underpriced that there is no way the builder has any margins in it, I always tell them, add 50% and you might have a chance, needless to say I am almost always right LOL they either pay more or they end up in a dispute and unhappy.

 

Anyway good luck

 

Thanks!