JanDaMan

Starter problem?

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Well as I said here before (along with some other owners too), I am having some problems starting my 08 LP640 again. Had issues in the past where I would encounter issues on occasion but now I can't get it to start at all. Yes, I am doing the proper press the brake/key fob unarm process to disable the alarm when turning the key but no luck. Just checked the battery and it is 12.6 so I am good there because I always keep my trickle on. When I turn the key to start, dash lights go on and I hear a click when turning to start but no start and I recall Jeff at Newport Lambo saying it may be the starter if I hear a click when turning the key to the start position (if there was no click after turning the key the thought there was that the car is not disarming to send juice to the starter). So now it seems I may be stuck in the driveway facing inward if it is a starter issue. If I need to tow it, is there a way to raise the front of the car without it started?  Also, any thoughts about the process to determine if it is the starter or not? Jeff's thoughts as noted above make sense to me. I even tried the kill switch off for about 10 sec and then arm/disarm, but then no start. I know some old school guys mention to try tapping the starter, but is it near the driver side? Car is in neutral now and some say to push the car a few inches because that may put the starter in a different position if there may be a bad spot on the starter, but that didn't work either.

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Jan,  sorry to hear you are having this issue, are you certain the click you hear is in fact the solenoid for the starter and not just the starter relay?

there should be a voltage drop, considerable actually, if your starter is ceased yet the solenoid is engaging

otherwise please test the resistor inline to the starter positive cable and be certain it isn’t the issue, 

here is hoping...

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If the starter relay is located inside by the passenger side then it isn't the starter relay making the click noise. In fact with the doors shut and windows up I don't hear the click at all, but when I have the drivers door open and turn the key to start then I hear a loud click near the rear of the car. In fact the click is pretty loud almost sounds more like a sharp spark noise than a small click. Makes me wonder if it is shorting out somehow, although I am not sure what a bad solenoid or starter sounds like vs some kind of short. But I do have a volt meter as shown below, so I could hook that to my pigtails coming from the battery that I use for my trickle charger and watch the reading when I try and start the car to see if there is a voltage drop like you say. I thought I saw a voltage drop on the dash in the 11 range, but not sure. I will do the meter and also look at the dash later today. Being 60+ it is getting a little difficult to do what I did as a youngin, so taking off the heavy & awkward wheel and getting under the car is usually a task but could do so if needed. At least with the voltmeter test as noted I don't need to get to that stage yet. Such a pain, I was really looking forward to cursing PCH then ugh. I suppose I could try and get it in 1st when the car is on and attempt to rock the car which in the old school cars they say it may help giggle the starter. Will also see if I can raise the car with the key in the on position in case towing is needed to Lambo Newport next week to get out of my uneven driveway.. But for now, the wife has me on other chores.

31577117935_b414532c1e_b.jpgTestingLP640WithVoltMeter by JanDaMan, on Flickr

 

 

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Well when turning the key to the start position and hearing the loud click the voltage went down to about 11.4 and after releasing it recovered back to about 12.6. I also put it in 1st gear (E-Gear car) and rocked the car front & back and tried to start it again but no luck. So sounds like bad starter issue no?  In anticipation of tow needed next week, to clear my driveway I also tried to raise the front of the car with the key in the on position but apparently the car needs to be running to be able to raise the front. Ugh! Only other thing I can think of trying is to jack it up and see if I can tap the starter with a hammer if there is enough room.

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Unfortunately the front lift system is powered by the power steering pump pressure so no joy will happen there.

i am going to have another look at the wire diagram but the starter assembly is fairly simple so there isn’t a lot of options to go wrong, I am just thinking it may be something other than the starter ( it is wishful thinking I admit for your benefit)

Just to again be certain, and I respect the age thing as I am mid 50’s myself, perhaps another person, such as your dear wife could attempt to start the car while you listen near the front of the left side (drivers) rear tyre for the offending click, zap or what have you, while the ignition is being engaged.

i will agree it is quite a burden to remove the rear wheel then the wheel well panels etc. 

The voltage drop you witnessed does not look remotely like a bad solinoid nor a starter motor short, and, so far as engaging the gear in an egear trans I don’t feel it is of any benefit , if you could hear the solinoid engage and the starter spinning or grinding then I would suspect the flywheel teeth to have questionable areas on it, but in this case, you are not experiencing this.

if I can find another option for you I will most certainly post it up

keep your chin up   The solution will come one way or another 

 

 

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Yes with CCB disc set up it is even more tedious to remove the wheel without scratching the wheel since there is just a fraction of an inch all around the disk and calipers. So I when I replaced the battery in the past I devised my own medieval system with wood support under the wheel and small cloth on top of the disc so I could just slide the wheel out ( shown below). The wife is at knitting now but when she returns I will attempt to start again and have her listen where the click is coming from. But to me it sure sounds like drivers side rear. Plus when jacking the car in the past I had the front end elevated with the up button which hardly cleared the ground when I jacked the rear of the car. If I have to get in that wheel well, not sure how well the front lip would clear now with the car lowered. Not saying I need to get in there yet, but still.

27027501101_d0b0d39992_c.jpgSave wheel removal with CCB by JanDaMan, on Flickr

26821941410_d7cb8148bc_c.jpgRear jacked up & car elevated by JanDaMan, on Flickr

 

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The wifiepoo listened by the drivers side rear wheel while I turned the key and she confirmed the loud click is coming from the front of the drivers side rear wheel. Not sure what else to do at this point except to see if I can jack it up without the front of the car hitting the ground and then get in the wheel well area and make sure all the battery connections are tight and if possible the starter connections too.

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I cannot tell the type of click from your description. It could be a weak battery or lose connection to the starter. 

I'd get the car up high enough to swap out the battery. Then crawl under the car and at the front-left of the engine is the starter, check to make sure the connection is tight. 

Also, do a search for a lug wheel alignment tool m14x1.5. Simply remove 2 or 3 lug bolts and install the wheel alignment tools, then remove the remaining lug bolts. You can slide the wheel off the hub without hitting the brake rotor/caliper. 

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Thanks for the tip on the alignment tool, never knew such a thing existed. Just trying to find one that is straight & smooth without a knurled ending or a dip in the center. Knurled ending seems it could still damage the wheel sliding in/out and the style with the dip in the center seems it would allow the wheel to drop a little. Maybe me just being too fussy but I will look around, however in the end I suppose I could just tape the knurled end. As far as the battery condition, to me that doesn't seem like it is the issue because the initial voltage is strong and the voltage also rebounds real well to strong voltage after each time I attempt to start it.

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I made a video of the click sound using the wifes selfie stick and the loud click/non start noise is near the end of the video right at the end of the pump noise.

 

 

 

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Thank you for making the video it does seem to be the solinoid sound for sure, but no starter motor

i have uploaded the starter-schematic and as I like to draw at straws you still could potentially have a loose connection from the battery to the starter

the starter motor is the lower right block the starter relay is the upper left block

unfortunately, to check will require rear wheel removal and the forward inner wheel well cover to expose the battery and the cable to the starter, the one end that goes to the starter is what I expect is the issue, though it can be the opposite end, this is a long shot as the cable should be hard wired along with the battery terminal, but I would still Like to see you come out of this without a trip to the dealer or damaged front end due to a tow truck driver

also, I would be happy to help you out with the wheel guide pin, send me a PM and we can share some info if you like.  

5438F865-13CD-4CF7-8B25-0AF156B70612.jpeg

6F9AA77F-1CEF-4296-B3C4-1DEC6115C8F9.jpeg

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Those would help you with the wheel. 

 

After listening to your video, it is definitely the starter. Since you didn't have any previous issues with it (long start; starting when cold but not starting when the car is hot; etc) it sounds like something electrical leading to the starter (input signal or power from battery) is damaged, loose or fell off. 

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Thanks for the input. Yeah I will just need to get in there and see if everything is tight and clean. Probably early next week when my wheel alignment tool arrives. Then there is this small connection box (photo) on the inside of the engine bay where prior owner attached a trickle charger, so I will check those cable connections under that small box too in the engine bay. Only difference in this photo is that I rerouted the extension line inside the wheel well with zip ties far away from the wheel so I could exit the connection better as shown out of the wheel well cover. I went about a full year with no starting issues, but last two trips out it did act up on me by not starting on occasion and now completely caput. So it seems within the last couple of drives something went fully wrong.

27715998336_a250d12575_c.jpgTrickle line attached here by JanDaMan, on Flickr

27051869676_26ea069698_c.jpgTrickle connection by JanDaMan, on Flickr

 

 

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1. Odds of your constant 12v (direct from battery) cable/connection being bad is slim but check it anyway.

2. Get a battery tester or a new battery. I doubt it's your battery.

Pray 1 or 2 fixes the problem because option 3 is a pain and option 4 is even more painful.

3. I would attempt to tap the starter. Driver side under the headers towards the firewall. My money is on the solenoid not being able to fully engage (which then activates the starter motor) due to clutch dust gunking up the plunger.

4. Starter needs to be replaced/rebuilt. There's a guide that a very generous member posted maybe a month ago on how to remove the starter without engine out.

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FYI, you don't need to remove the wheel to inspect the starter. I'd be looking at the starter itself for loose connections than around the battery. 

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Thanks for all the input and I will check out whatever I can get at in a few days (starter connections & battery area). I just hope I can Jack the rear high enough without the front hitting, so I will be watching for that. I need to get high enough to get some jack stands on it and high enough to scoot under the car for the starter area which per whiteout makes sense to get at first. I recall the starter area was rather difficult access when I was under the car in the past with arms bent up like a praying mantis. Anyone know the bolt size on the starter by chance, so I can get the right wrench on it first try? Plus what is the purpose of this connection box shown below on the left side engine bay? I figure it is the + and - to the battery in case the Murci ever needs to be jump started with another battery source, although I have also heard these cars should not be jump started (false rumor maybe).

27715998336_a250d12575_c.jpgTrickle line attached here by JanDaMan, on Flickr

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If you want to solve your jacking issue, just buy 3 of these (or 2 if you already have 1 large jack):

https://www.harborfreight.com/3-ton-low-profile-steel-heavy-duty-floor-jack-with-rapid-pump-62326.html

You can lift the entire car up around 2 ft off the ground and then put jack stands. You'll have lots of room to work.

I always lift the front 2 jacks a little at a time so I don't torque the chassis until I get the rear tires off the ground with the single jack in the back. Once the rear tires are off the ground, you can't torque the chassis.

It will be much more pleasant working on the starter with the car level and off the ground by a couple feet, not to mention for all the other jobs.

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The little box is one of the main mega fuses, there is another behind the driver engine side of the firewall beside the dry sump oil reservoir 

One for the alternator and the other is for the starter, which is the one on the firewall, it is a mega fuse and is what I was referring to in my initial post, to get to it you need to access the rear firewall near the battery, it’s around $12 for that mega fuse and was my first suspect but looking back I called it a resistor not a fuse (late night posting)

Still holding firm that I don’t believe it’s the starter motor.....  (it’s a Canadian thing)

PS.  Very clean engine bay..... nice to see

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I will add that some of those also had carrier plates in them and not fuses, I have never determined what defined that other than some do and some don’t that I have come across.

but it is another connection that if it is not true, the starter will not turn

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Best way to eliminate the presence or integrity of this fuse is to check for 12V at the thick cable on the starter  (point 30 on the electrical diagram above) - this is the supply to the solenoid, which gets transferred to the starter motor when the solenoid closes.  The thin wire  (point 50) activates (closes) the solenoid when you twist the ign key.  

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Thanks all, great tips. Stimpy great idea about raising the car but for me I may not want to go that far just yet, although it gave me some thoughts if I had to get the front raised to maybe get some casters under the wheels to get it out of the driveway raised for towing. Rain is coming very soon, so probably the best I can do today would be to see how far I can jack the rear up without the front hitting. So I as far as safety when I eventually get in there I just want to make sure I don't happen to hit something electrical that kicks in the car to start with front wheels on the ground having a 4 wheel drive car. So I am thinking I keep it in neutral, block the front wheels, jack it up/jack stands and do all fiddling/checking tightness with the kill switch off and then switch on the kill switch for any electrical testing. Other than that, I found this photo I took last time I was in that area of cables at the positive battery post but not sure what each is. I recall last time in that area to do a new battery I tightened that main connection very snug, but of course I will eventually be in that area looking at that too. 

46091563671_73f2e9dc15_c.jpgPositiveBatteryTerminalsNumbered by JanDaMan, on Flickr

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Baby steps: confirmed I could jack the rear high enough for jack stands without the front hitting the pavement. Sure is close though especially with skid plates. Can’t help but laugh, found this socket sitting near the frame. Looks like it was sitting there for years.

 

900D3750-5B9F-4597-92DC-8FDCA185C8F4.jpeg

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Hmmm my positive cable is moulded together with multiple wires, unlike yours that has them bolted together, so about your question,

#3 will be the one side of the mega fuse in the little box while the other side of the box goes to the alternator,

difficult to tell, but #1 may be the starter feed and if so, then you don’t have the fuse block, #2 would be the feed to the main relay and fuse cluster behind the driver seat

if you are at this location again to test the cable, you can leave the battery shut off and just use continuity on your tester, with probes even with the battery engaged, the amount of amperage that would draw from a short would more likely melt the tips right off anyways, plus if the car is in neutral, it wouldn’t go anywhere because you also blocked your tyres once the car was raised and before you ventured under there....

Funny that socket wedged into the ebrake cable like that.... and I cannot get over how clean the underside of your car is... its as if it has never seen a day on the road,  very nice

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18 hours ago, V12noise said:

Best way to eliminate the presence or integrity of this fuse is to check for 12V at the thick cable on the starter  (point 30 on the electrical diagram above) - this is the supply to the solenoid, which gets transferred to the starter motor when the solenoid closes.  The thin wire  (point 50) activates (closes) the solenoid when you twist the ign key.  

Not to contest but to clarify, as the wording of “supply to the solinoid” is misleading

The solinoid positive (50) is derived from the starter relay, the hard positive to the starter motor (30) is isolated from the solinoid coil and is only common to the contacts engaged as a result of the solinoid motivation, otherwise if they shared a common positive in the event of an arc short, the solinoid could be welded permanently engaged leaving the drive gears of the motor driving the flywheel after the car has started.

but you have the general idea, thank you for commenting.

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