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No V-12? Lamborghini Fighting to Save Aventador’s Engine


sl55
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VW is a mess and that it's spilling over to Lamborghini.
 

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Thanks to the successful and profitable Urus, right now life is good in Sant’#### for Lamborghini and its affable CEO Stefano Domenicali. After all, the marque he’s in charge of doubled sales in fiscal 2018, and is expected to contribute upwards of 15 percent to the Volkswagen Group’s bottom line in 2019. A plug-in-hybrid version of the Urus set to arrive next year should only add to the coffers. Despite all the positives, the results still don’t quite cut it for VW CEO Herbert Diess, who keeps urging Lamborghini to bring its profits closer to Ferrari’s. An ambitious goal, no doubt, especially when you consider the increasingly scarce funds and the unclear situation at Audi, which owns the Italian sports-car maker, and the juggernaut that is Ferrari’s product-licensing business.

Then there’s the matter of Lambo’s core business, which appears to be living on borrowed time—despite a string of stunning and highly profitable limited-edition specials. Lambo needs a decision on the Aventador replacement about as badly as a junkie needs his next shot, but decision-making has never been Audi’s forte. Which is why the VW Group product strategy committee (PSK) keeps pushing back the Aventador MkII, first from 2020 to 2021, then to 2022, and now to 2024, which would relegate the next Huracán to 2025—and that’s an optimistic scenario. What happened? The German owners are reportedly reluctant to spend the money required to update the Aventador’s ancient V-12 to the EU7 emission standard. Instead, they would rather use hybridized, high-performance V-8 engines for both models, refusing to acknowledge that without the iconic V-12, the Aventador is little more than a token gesture.

In an ideal world, the new Aventador (LB744) would use the same carbon-fiber chassis as the next Huracán (LB634), thereby also sharing the electronic architecture; the innovative, transversely mounted transmission; key suspension and brake elements; the steering; and the user-interface concept. The group’s strategy department has budgeted the new DNA—including two different shells and the revised V-12 engine—at a whopping $900 million or so. In stark contrast, the Italians claim they can do it for roughly half that number: They say getting the V-12 to comply with the EU7 commandments would cost around $55 million, while $400 million max would suffice to fund both redesigns. Lamborghini could alternatively invest in a full stopgap plan to re-skin the cars, which would extend the lifecycle of either model by four years if so required. While Lamborghini chief technical officer Maurizio Reggiani and his team continue to fight for the V-12, the V-10 will almost certainly be replaced in favor of a 4.0-liter V-8 being developed by Porsche that’s due to appear in 2024. In its most potent form, the new engine, codenamed LK5+, should push close to 800 horsepower all-in with hybrid enhancements. We’ll miss the V-10, but with that performance, we’re thinking most Lambo buyers won’t care. But the V-12? That’s another matter.

 

https://www.automobilemag.com/news/lamborghini-fighting-aventador-v12-engine/

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Has anyone else heard the replacement is getting pushed back to 2024? That seems a bit crazy to push it back that long, especially with cars like the SF90 coming at a similar price point. 

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Seems awful McLaren of them to share the same carbon tub for both the Huracan and next Aventador; if i'm reading that correctly.

This just tells me that vintage and naturally aspirated cars prices are going to keep climbing. 

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At the end of June, I was told by someone from the factory that the Aventador replacement is pretty much ready and further along than the SF90.  In this conversation the car was a V12 hybrid with approximately 1080 HP (100 hp or so more than the SF90 Stradale).  Separately and earlier I had heard the VAG/Porsche management did not want a V12 in the Aventador replacement and was unhappy that development was too far along to change now!  

If the Aventador replacement does not have a V12, I believe, it is the kiss of death for the desirability of that car! 

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18 minutes ago, Speed Demon said:

At the end of June, I was told by someone from the factory that the Aventador replacement is pretty much ready and further along than the SF90.  In this conversation the car was a V12 hybrid with approximately 1080 HP (100 hp or so more than the SF90 Stradale).  Separately and earlier I had heard the VAG/Porsche management did not want a V12 in the Aventador replacement and was unhappy that development was too far along to change now!  

If the Aventador replacement does not have a V12, I believe, it is the kiss of death for the desirability of that car! 

Realistically how long can Lambo keep the V12 going? Every country is tighten up their emission laws and at the end of the day VAG needs to make a profit so pouring money into a engine that might make it another few years before it needs another major update to be in compliance makes no business sense.

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8 hours ago, Speed Demon said:

At the end of June, I was told by someone from the factory that the Aventador replacement is pretty much ready and further along than the SF90.  In this conversation the car was a V12 hybrid with approximately 1080 HP (100 hp or so more than the SF90 Stradale).  Separately and earlier I had heard the VAG/Porsche management did not want a V12 in the Aventador replacement and was unhappy that development was too far along to change now!  

If the Aventador replacement does not have a V12, I believe, it is the kiss of death for the desirability of that car! 

SF90 debut dealers were selecting owners for  allocations - August published pricing / production dates. 

Winkelman and others did spend but given the desire of parts sharing VAG is a bean counter run company. 

Best thing for Lambo is to be spun off - otherwise it's VAG parts bin time. 

Aston V6TT - 1000hp SF90 V8TT - 1000hp expect more of the same. 

 

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16 hours ago, sl55 said:

Realistically how long can Lambo keep the V12 going? Every country is tighten up their emission laws and at the end of the day VAG needs to make a profit so pouring money into a engine that might make it another few years before it needs another major update to be in compliance makes no business sense.

Doubt there is a new engine outside the V8 URUS or it would be going in the  LB48. 

My guess LB48 tech will be seen later in the AV -expect a lot of short very profitable le runs. 

Ferrari and Aston producing 1000hp with a lot more weight. 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

I was told by some influential people within Lamborghini at Serata Italiana at Pebble this year that the naturally aspirated V12 ICE in the Aventador replacement is not something we should worry about... Implying it is safe and a done deal... And the fighting over it is over!

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2 hours ago, Speed Demon said:

I was told by some influential people within Lamborghini at Serata Italiana at Pebble this year that the naturally aspirated V12 ICE in the Aventador replacement is not something we should worry about... Implying it is safe and a done deal... And the fighting over it is over!

Whew, that was close (if true)

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A push toward electrification in every model doesn’t faze Lamborghini’s Chief Technical Officer Maurizio Reggiani. 

The lead engineer for the super sports cars that have rolled out of Sant’#### recently said this month that he expects a naturally aspirated V-12 and hybrid battery combination to appear in a Lamborghini soon, perhaps at the automaker’s scheduled press conference at the 2019 Frankfurt motor show

“We think that (the) Lamborghini brand is based on the V-12. And it's clear that we need electrification because we need that to reduce (carbon dioxide) and...to have additional power based on electrification,” Reggiani told Motor Authority

Does that mean a hybrid V-12? 

“Yes,” he said. 

Reggiani didn’t give any specifics about what the future for its current V-12 would be, but said that any change in displacement to the current 6.5-liter engine used by Lamborghini would be secondary to power output. Reggiani didn’t dispute claims that Lamborghini might be developing a small-displacement V-12 to replace the current engine that dates back to only 2011—but said the automaker favors naturally aspirated internal combustion engines. The V-12 predecessor to the Aventador’s engine traced its roots back to the 1970s. 

“Many of our competitors moved in the direction of a V-8 turbo and we decided that natural aspirated is still the best interpretation of the brand’s super sport cars,” he said. 

Despite reports that the Aventador’s successor may be pushed back to 2024 or beyond, Reggiani said that the current Aventador line has room for improvement beyond the SVJ model that’s currently at the top of the range. 

He cited further light-weighting, chassis controls, and driver comfort as areas the Avendator might improve before blasting off into the sunset sometime in the next decade. 

Reggiani pointed to the Huracan Evo’s integrated vehicle dynamics system (LDVI), which incorporates rear-wheel steering, advanced traction control, torque vectoring, and all-wheel drive to anticipate driver inputs, as a potential port over to the Aventador soon. 

Few Lamborghini owners complain about fuel economy, which is why Reggiani said Lamborghini’s first application of a hybrid powertrain will be for performance gains. 

Eye-popping horsepower numbers won’t be the point for Lamborghini’s first hybrid, Reggiani said. The Aventador SVJ’s 759 horsepower is in line with the limits of grip and traction

“Every time you need to take into consideration that we talk about power, but the most difficult item is in the way you can discharge the power on the street,” he said. “Because the real problem is that in what way you can guarantee that you are able to use all this horsepower.”

All-wheel drive, a fundamental Lamborghini trait, is how he plans to use the power created by electric motors, but Reggiani didn’t say what kind of hybrid system Lamborghini would use. A through-the-road-hybrid setup, where electric motors drive one axle and a conventional engine drives another similar to the Acura NSX, has been rumored to be Lamborghini’s pick, although Reggiani didn’t commit. 

“(Through-the-road) is some of the possible solutions that will be investigated,” he said. 

In the Urus, which Lamborghini has already confirmed will have a hybrid powertrain, Reggiani said the automaker will push for better efficiency and speed. 

“Urus is a vehicle where space and weight are not so fundamental like in a super sport car. But it is clear that it is a still a Lamborghini and we need to define what is the right interpretation of hybridization...It can not be a commodity,” he said.

 

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1124799_lamborghini-s-chief-engineer-hybrid-is-everything-for-future-super-cars

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I doubt VW Group is still debating if Lamborghini's V12 should stay.

V12 with a hybrid assistance for the Aventador replacement has been decided for at least 5 years now. It's too late to cancel now. 

However Lamborghini will keep milking the Aventador until it sells less than 200 units a year. 

What comes after V12 with a hybrid will be very interesting, especially if they get better battery technology and make those supercapacitators work. The car that comes after Aventador's replacement will be definitely fully electric. 

As for Huracan, it will go hybrid first and only fully electric later (same as Aventador). 

But there are very interesting news regarding the next R8. It will be fully electric from the get-go, no hybrid for it. Audi wants Baby Lambo and R8 to be more separate despite that they will share the common structure that will be viable for an ICE engine + hybrid and a fully electric architecture. 

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1 hour ago, APB said:

I doubt VW Group is still debating if Lamborghini's V12 should stay.

V12 with a hybrid assistance for the Aventador replacement has been decided for at least 5 years now. It's too late to cancel now. 

However Lamborghini will keep milking the Aventador until it sells less than 200 units a year. 

What comes after V12 with a hybrid will be very interesting, especially if they get better battery technology and make those supercapacitators work. The car that comes after Aventador's replacement will be definitely fully electric. 

As for Huracan, it will go hybrid first and only fully electric later (same as Aventador). 

But there are very interesting news regarding the next R8. It will be fully electric from the get-go, no hybrid for it. Audi wants Baby Lambo and R8 to be more separate despite that they will share the common structure that will be viable for an ICE engine + hybrid and a fully electric architecture. 

So you believe that Lamborghini is going full-electric full-line eventually?

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16 hours ago, APB said:

I doubt VW Group is still debating if Lamborghini's V12 should stay.

V12 with a hybrid assistance for the Aventador replacement has been decided for at least 5 years now. It's too late to cancel now. 

However Lamborghini will keep milking the Aventador until it sells less than 200 units a year. 

What comes after V12 with a hybrid will be very interesting, especially if they get better battery technology and make those supercapacitators work. The car that comes after Aventador's replacement will be definitely fully electric. 

As for Huracan, it will go hybrid first and only fully electric later (same as Aventador). 

But there are very interesting news regarding the next R8. It will be fully electric from the get-go, no hybrid for it. Audi wants Baby Lambo and R8 to be more separate despite that they will share the common structure that will be viable for an ICE engine + hybrid and a fully electric architecture. 

It's a matter of time - VW's other brands offsetting costs first Lambo last. 

Winkelman moved when he was spending too much money - not so sure it worked out so well. Chiron that is  almost stalled as they can not make a roadster producing  5 & 10million dollar editions. 

Guess V10 is almost done  - V12 tub design does not allow twin clutch but will receive new tech to make it lighter and faster which if they can not improve the brakes may work out. 

Ferrari decided to not go with the CF tub but invest in new engines - adding hp and weight is not an advantage street tires can only handle so much. 

Lambo won't ditch the AV - plenty of meat left on the bone by using Audi  hybrid quattro  5 years ago which I think was the e-tron plan all along. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 8/30/2019 at 1:29 AM, Destructo said:

So you believe that Lamborghini is going full-electric full-line eventually?

Eventually, yes. By 2030 -2040. 

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On 8/31/2019 at 3:31 PM, Destructo said:

I hope I'm out of the car hobby by then. All-electric cars just depress the hell out of me. 

 

Same. 

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On the day that Bugatti announced that they have a road car that can go 300mph and Lambo still use Audi A7 interface I am not sure that you can say VW are in a mess and they are bean counters.   

I think they are waiting on production lines to align.  What platform can they share with say Bentley / Porsche?  Then you will see some quicker turnaround on models.  But still, here we are moaning there are not enough models and then when they do produce them... they are producing too many so values are going down and exclusivity is out of the door. 

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