The odd situation with project cars

Has anyone noticed that project cars, are often priced quite close, to completed and ready to drive no-stories cars ?

 

 

This past month, I have obtained information from two different sellers, of classic projects. One car is priced within 40% of full retail, of a completed ready to go car. The other car is also priced, about 40% of full retail. The 2nd car, a 250PF coupe, is a long term driver.

 

 

The other car, I have no idea about the condition. I was appalled by the asking price. - (Mike, I did not call about that car).

 

 

The other car, was a long term driver. I asked detailed questions about the car, and I obtained the following type of answers:

 

 

I changed the plugs

The car has run fine for the past five years

I adjusted the carbs a few years ago, and it runs very good since then

It was repainted ten years ago, because the moving company hit the door

The car is very original

The engine has never been taken apart

Original almost 50 year old interior

No rust - ?

 

 

- This is a car, that is older than me. (250PF coupe). 150K for a long term running driver ? 2 1/2 years ago, I was standing in front of a very nice completed car, for 1/2 the price of today's long term driver.

 

 

The costs of an extensive restoration on a classic Italian 12, is quite expensive to say the least.

 

Just start at 40K for a complete engine rebuild.

 

The cost of the paint $$$$$. - Not show quality

Transmission ?

Frame restoration / clean up ?

Rust removal ?

Electrical ?

Shocks/springs/brakes

Missing parts ?

Leather/carpet

Instruments/rebuild ?

Perhaps the project has a missing radio ?

Re-chrome trim parts

Weber carbs ?

The unknown

etc...

 

 

With the known above requirements, how can anyone consider a project today ??? The sellers are simply not realistic.

I have been saying this for years, if you have to have it, just spend the money up front and get a car thats already done. The projects take too much time and in the end the #'s usually don't make sense.

I have been saying this for years, if you have to have it, just spend the money up front and get a car thats already done. The projects take too much time and in the end the #'s usually don't make sense.

 

 

True.

 

I have said the same thing. If you add up the cost of a restoration, with the cost of the project car; it only makes sense to take on a project, if the end result is significantly less than a completed car. Of course if it is a long term family car, that could be a different story altogether.

 

 

However, their are people who do find projects for a good price. I have heard of some good buys, that are being restored in the shop at this time.

 

 

Two years ago, their was a running Islero in Hemmings, for an asking price in the hi 20's. Of course two years ago, almost everything was priced much less. Keep saying to yourself, it is going to get better .

IE I know of a project car (you know the one) that needs a $250k restoration (on the low side), around $75k in parts and you have to pay at least $50 to $100k to get the car. Whats a perfect one worth ralph?

agree 100%

 

i paid $9500.00 for my 1st ferrari 308 GTS. now "project" cars are over $20k, and i cant get $30k for my current one.

 

the market is all screwed up, and when it finally makes a " market adjustment " it aint going to be pretty.

 

Miura and DD Countach are immune i would think from the things that affect the lower level cars, as are the other "ICON" cars as i call them.

 

 

 

i think you can get a beater in some cases and actually have something to make a good " driver " out of. but you have to buy the thing knowing some things wont be fixed or restored due to costs.

 

there is a difference between catching up on deffered maintenance, and actually *RESTORING* the car.

 

 

 

aw come on ralf, just buy one and drive it like ya stole it!

As one well known Ferrari purveyor always touts in his ads: "pay for the restoration, get the car for free." In other words, buy someone else's finished restoration. You are money ahead.

Mike. If you are lucky, upon completion you will be at market value for a well restored car. You may also have a problem, because of the particular history of that individual car. - That is a liability.

 

 

Udo Pretty hard to come out ahead on any restoration. It is kind of pecuilar how, if a Ferrari 250 GTO hits a wall at the historics, it is not worth any less money. - The worst example you can give when talking about restorations It seems nobody today, wants to sale a project car for a decent price. I was just informed of a possible P400 project, that may be coming available for 200k (a.t.) - That makes no sense at all.

 

 

Michael I would be happy to find a survivor. The problem with a survivor, is they are often priced very close, to what a restored no-stories car brings today. I would be concerned with the mechanical life remaining, on the original engine. If the engine has to rebuilt, you will be upside down in the car. After you pay for an engine rebuild, you will now have a driver with a good motor. I would assume the value of the car with the fresh engine rebuild, is still going to be priced as a driver. - If that is the case, the owner just flushed the price of the engine rebuild.

 

 

I think almost every car collector will be hit, when the muscle car market collapses. This will include such diverse cars, as the F-40 to an early 911S. I would (guess), the prices will settle, at the market value rates of approx two-three years ago. It is difficult to gauge just how far the muscle car market will adjust itself. I am just posting a "guesssssstimate."

Mike. If you are lucky, upon completion you will be at market value for a well restored car. You may also have a problem, because of the particular history of that individual car. - That is a liability.

Udo Pretty hard to come out ahead on any restoration. It is kind of pecuilar how, if a Ferrari 250 GTO hits a wall at the historics, it is not worth any less money. - The worst example you can give when talking about restorations It seems nobody today, wants to sale a project car for a decent price. I was just informed of a possible P400 project, that may be coming available for 200k (a.t.) - That makes no sense at all.

Michael I would be happy to find a survivor. The problem with a survivor, is they are often priced very close, to what a restored no-stories car brings today. I would be concerned with the mechanical life remaining, on the original engine. If the engine has to rebuilt, you will be upside down in the car. After you pay for an engine rebuild, you will now have a driver with a good motor. I would assume the value of the car with the fresh engine rebuild, is still going to be priced as a driver. - If that is the case, the owner just flushed the price of the engine rebuild.

I think almost every car collector will be hit, when the muscle car market collapses. This will include such diverse cars, as the F-40 to an early 911S. I would (guess), the prices will settle, at the market value rates of approx two-three years ago. It is difficult to gauge just how far the muscle car market will adjust itself. I am just posting a "guesssssstimate."

 

 

i sold all of my muscle cars off as the water was rising. i have been contacted several times by people that have bought cars i have owned, and i have been amazed at the stpuid money they spent on the cars. on Brewster green 73 455 trans am i had sold a year after i had it for over $70k, and the car was not that nice. i would love another 70-72 Z28 or BANDIT 4 SPEED TRANS AM, but i refuse to believe they are worth the money pople want for then now.

 

 

if the market does crash, maybe i "CAN" get into a Countach .....

 

school must come first. with so many companies uning Catia V5 now, i may be able to shop around for a better job later. i would love to go to europe for awhile.

So Ralf, why do you think the prices have shot up so much? I was amazed at the 20k Islero, wow what a deal! Do you think the prices on the classic Lambos are reflecting the surge in prices of classic American cars, i.e. people are just riding the gravy train? Maybe there is still hope for me after the Impala.

So Ralf, why do you think the prices have shot up so much? I was amazed at the 20k Islero, wow what a deal! Do you think the prices on the classic Lambos are reflecting the surge in prices of classic American cars, i.e. people are just riding the gravy train? Maybe there is still hope for me after the Impala.

 

 

I have no idea, what drives the market.

 

 

That Islero was a running car with issues. A deal nonetheless.

 

What is interesting; as the Miura and the early models of the Countach have gone up quite a bit (more than doubled in value), the Daytona and Boxer have moved little. The Daytona has moved up, much more in value than the Boxer has.

 

The Boxer has moved little, in relation to the other classic F cars, that have exploded in value over the last two years. The 275 GTB, Lusso and SWB etc...have all done well. The classic 350/400GT and 400GT 2+2 have also shot up in value. Two years ago, you could find a nice 350GT for around 85K. That same car, is worth double that amount today.

Not unlike many other things I believe Emotion drives the market. The "I have to have one also" starts. What starts it is anyone's guess.

 

I personally do not see the Miura & early Countach losing appeal. There are just too few to go around for the ever increasing population of car enthusiasts. I also believe Boxers will have their day. They are the last hand built cars with Enzo's blessing. The Boxer still has that old school Ferrari feel, are still within reasonable cost & fairly uncommon to see. No offence to the TR crowd, but I think you have a long wait.

 

IMO, the 365 will of course lead the way with the carb BB following. I believe there will then be a gap to the injected car. I place carb cars in a different category than any "more modern" injected car. I'm perhaps biased in my belief a Ferrari or Lamborghini if "classic", has carbs. Only my opinion and won't buy a cup of coffee.

 

Knowing I had a couple Dino's over the years. I had a friend wanting a 246 project a couple years ago. Having found one for him he thought it was too much. Well, he won't be buying a Dino anytime soon I don't think. Who would have guessed. Perhaps next year will be __________?

 

IMO, any classic/vintage 12 cylinder Lambo or Ferrari is a worthy addition & collectable. We have all done the would-a, could-a, should-a? So an Islero in the 20's? Apparently many of you were actually out looking & passed on it? The simple answer is "Buy a Car You Want". If your looking for short term return? Do something else with your money. In the long run I believe cars are an enjoyable place to put money. People watch their stock go up/down all the time. A sunny day has no impact on enjoying it differently. What's a nice day driving a classic Italian V12 worth? The smell of hot oil, rich carbs & old leather??????

I believe long term ownership of any 12 cylinder classis car will be a positive not a negative. I am not a broker, dealer, get no kick backs and not trying to sell anything. I just enjoy the cars.

 

If one feels the market is too high, hold off until your comfortable. If your good at speculating the stock market perhaps your good at choosing the next shining star of a car? Personally, I have not a clue.

 

I'm not a rich guy by any means. I go to work everyday just like many of you, but I do love the cars. If your wallet is talking instead of your heart? Buy something else. I restored my LP400 when nobody wanted them. I personally thought the car worthy when no one else did. It wasn't about money & still isn't. It was done for myself. I don't count the hours invested, the back aches, cuts, dust, grime or anything else involved. It is all part of my owning the car. The experience as you might say.

 

20 plus years ago people said the same thing, "He wants too much for a project like that". 8k for a 400GT (running), 5.5K for a 250 GTE (running), 10-12K for a project Dino (running). These were not junk cars, just needing TLC. Some thing's never change. You just have to be ready when one comes up that rings your bell. There is and always have been over priced projects available. Both my vintage racecars came available out of the blue and I was there and ready.

 

Buy what you see potential in, whatever it is? You won't loose anything if it has value to the only person that matters, yourself.

 

PS: I said 20 plus years ago? Wow, where did all the time go....I'm getting OLDDDDDDDDDDDD.

 

The other Ralph

I believe long term ownership of any 12 cylinder classis car will be a positive not a negative. I am not a broker, dealer, get no kick backs and not trying to sell anything. I just enjoy the cars.

 

Not unlike many other things I believe Emotion drives the market. The "I have to have one also" starts. What starts it is anyone's guess.

 

I personally do not see the Miura & early Countach losing appeal. There are just too few to go around for the ever increasing population of car enthusiasts. I also believe Boxers will have their day. They are the last hand built cars with Enzo's blessing. The Boxer still has that old school Ferrari feel, are still within reasonable cost & fairly uncommon to see. No offence to the TR crowd, but I think you have a long wait.

 

IMO, the 365 will of course lead the way with the carb BB following. I believe there will then be a gap to the injected car. I place carb cars in a different category than any "more modern" injected car. I'm perhaps biased in my belief a Ferrari or Lamborghini if "classic", has carbs. Only my opinion and won't buy a cup of coffee.

 

Knowing I had a couple Dino's over the years. I had a friend wanting a 246 project a couple years ago. Having found one for him he thought it was too much. Well, he won't be buying a Dino anytime soon I don't think. Who would have guessed. Perhaps next year will be __________?

 

IMO, any classic/vintage 12 cylinder Lambo or Ferrari is a worthy addition & collectable. We have all done the would-a, could-a, should-a? So an Islero in the 20's? Apparently many of you were actually out looking & passed on it? The simple answer is "Buy a Car You Want". If your looking for short term return? Do something else with your money. In the long run I believe cars are an enjoyable place to put money. People watch their stock go up/down all the time. A sunny day has no impact on enjoying it differently. What's a nice day driving a classic Italian V12 worth? The smell of hot oil, rich carbs & old leather??????

I believe long term ownership of any 12 cylinder classis car will be a positive not a negative. I am not a broker, dealer, get no kick backs and not trying to sell anything. I just enjoy the cars.

 

If one feels the market is too high, hold off until your comfortable. If your good at speculating the stock market perhaps your good at choosing the next shining star of a car? Personally, I have not a clue.

 

I'm not a rich guy by any means. I go to work everyday just like many of you, but I do love the cars. If your wallet is talking instead of your heart? Buy something else. I restored my LP400 when nobody wanted them. I personally thought the car worthy when no one else did. It wasn't about money & still isn't. It was done for myself. I don't count the hours invested, the back aches, cuts, dust, grime or anything else involved. It is all part of my owning the car. The experience as you might say.

 

20 plus years ago people said the same thing, "He wants too much for a project like that". 8k for a 400GT (running), 5.5K for a 250 GTE (running), 10-12K for a project Dino (running). These were not junk cars, just needing TLC. Some thing's never change. You just have to be ready when one comes up that rings your bell. There is and always have been over priced projects available. Both my vintage racecars came available out of the blue and I was there and ready.

 

Buy what you see potential in, whatever it is? You won't loose anything if it has value to the only person that matters, yourself.

 

PS: I said 20 plus years ago? Wow, where did all the time go....I'm getting OLDDDDDDDDDDDD.

 

The other Ralph

 

 

I enjoyed reading your post

 

Pppplease do not talk anymore, about the 8k running 400GT. - Soon the tool kit will bring more than that (I reach for a box of Kleenex).

 

How much was the "less" expensive 350GT, about 20 years ago ?

I enjoyed reading your post

 

Pppplease do not talk anymore, about the 8k running 400GT. - Soon the tool kit will bring more than that (I reach for a box of Kleenex).

 

How much was the "less" expensive 350GT, about 20 years ago ?

 

 

$8,000

 

 

 

I dont think it will ever happen for me. So sad.

I enjoyed reading your post

 

Pppplease do not talk anymore, about the 8k running 400GT. - Soon the tool kit will bring more than that (I reach for a box of Kleenex).

 

How much was the "less" expensive 350GT, about 20 years ago ?

 

 

 

350 or 400? Most people really didn't care in those days Ralf. It was just an old Lambo......either you liked it or hated it.

 

Ok, F cars then,

 

In 1981 I went to look at a Pantera in L.A. Having quit racing motorcycles, I was 19 and lusting for an Italian car. There was a 250LM at the same shop . They wanted (oh it hurts ):

 

125K for a spectacular, classic, racing Ferrari.....

 

It was way, way out of any car budget I had. But it's one I have never forgotten about.

 

I did work on a 250LM back in 1999 and spent a bit of time in it. They are so cool, but warm inside!

 

The Other Ralph

Ralph

 

125K for the LM ?

 

- It is worth around 3-5m today ?

 

 

 

 

In the early 80's when I was in hi school, you could find a nice 300SL Gullwing, for between the hi-20's to the hi-30's. - Price depending on the actual condition of the individual car. At 45K, it would probably be a show car. The 300SL roadster was even less !! I saw one of those forsale, for about 18K The previous owner, purchased his running and all original P400 for 10K in 1976.

 

I tried to buy a 190SL, for my first hi school car. - That would have been cool. At about 5-10K at the time (depending on the car), it was beyond my used car budget. Why the interest in Mercedes ? My parents had bought two new cars at the time. It is just too bad, that dad did not buy two Gullwings, instead of the 300D and a 300SD . My parents kept those cars forever. Those pre-90's Mercedes diesel autos, will run and run forever (just like the Energizer bunny).

 

I ended up purchasing an all original 68 GTO for 1,400 dollars. Hello burnouts and no brakes.

Here's a few I do remember. I actually looked at these. I was always willing to take a lesser condition car vs. a nice one of a model I wasn't excited about. I looked at a lot of cars while deciding.

 

330GTC 18K, running, trans issue, 1983

P400S 25K w/fresh valve job, 1981

P400S 27.5K, 1985

400GT 8K, 1982

275GTB 42.5K, short nose, missing bumpers, 1985

Pantera's 10-30K, (30k had 60 orig miles), 1981-1983

Europa JPS 7.5K, twin cam, 1981

250 GTE 5.5K, project 1983, a driver was 7.5K

Ghibli 4.9 18K, 17k miles, 1983

Dino's 7.5k*-27.5K** (coupe needing paint*, C&F Spyder, Exec**) 1981-84

289 cobra 10K, disassembled & missing suspension parts, 1983

 

We look back and say the good ole days. But, that was real money for these cars back then. Look at the price of an exec 246 GTS vs. a project coupe? An exec coupe was around 17-20 then. I was fortunate to buy what I did and have never regretted it. I had to buy what I could afford and not necessarily what I really wanted, like most of us do. Who doesn't want a SWB, 275GTB4 or a 750 Monza? Needless to say, you won't hear me complain as I had a Dino at 19. A joy of a car to own. So California, Friday night drive-in with the girlfriend & a 246GT.

 

It sure doesn't feel like I'm referring to 25 years ago, but it is.

As the saying goes, "Life is what happens while your making plans".

 

The Other Ralph

For the record, I also desire to become an Old School Lamborghini owner.

 

I want a membership card to this section like you Ralf

 

I skipped the muscle car experience. After racing motorcycles, I felt if it didn't stop or steer I'd stay away.

 

But, I do love the old MB cars. Any of the SL cars would have been great in high school.

 

The Other Ralph

Guys it is ph. Not F

 

 

Fwiw it is Ralph . ..Just like Ralph / TiAmoVeloce, but I am not the one with the awesome clean Countach.

 

 

My screen name, is derived from our buying group. - Abco.

Here's a few I do remember. I actually looked at these. I was always willing to take a lesser condition car vs. a nice one of a model I wasn't excited about. I looked at a lot of cars while deciding.

 

330GTC 18K, running, trans issue, 1983

P400S 25K w/fresh valve job, 1981

P400S 27.5K, 1985

400GT 8K, 1982

275GTB 42.5K, short nose, missing bumpers, 1985

Pantera's 10-30K, (30k had 60 orig miles), 1981-1983

Europa JPS 7.5K, twin cam, 1981

250 GTE 5.5K, project 1983, a driver was 7.5K

Ghibli 4.9 18K, 17k miles, 1983

Dino's 7.5k*-27.5K** (coupe needing paint*, C&F Spyder, Exec**) 1981-84

289 cobra 10K, disassembled & missing suspension parts, 1983

 

We look back and say the good ole days. But, that was real money for these cars back then. Look at the price of an exec 246 GTS vs. a project coupe? An exec coupe was around 17-20 then. I was fortunate to buy what I did and have never regretted it. I had to buy what I could afford and not necessarily what I really wanted, like most of us do. Who doesn't want a SWB, 275GTB4 or a 750 Monza? Needless to say, you won't hear me complain as I had a Dino at 19. A joy of a car to own. So California, Friday night drive-in with the girlfriend & a 246GT.

 

It sure doesn't feel like I'm referring to 25 years ago, but it is.

As the saying goes, "Life is what happens while your making plans".

 

The Other Ralph

 

 

 

 

When I was a first year college student in 82, I requested my one free copy, of the Ferrari Market Letter

 

 

Ralph (ph)

Guys it is ph. Not F

Fwiw it is Ralph . ..Just like Ralph / TiAmoVeloce, but I am not the one with the awesome clean Countach.

My screen name, is derived from our buying group. - Abco.

 

 

Ralph,

 

I have wondered for sometime when you would comment on the spelling.

 

"Ralf" just looks phishy?

 

I always laugh when people spell mine that way. Also, when I spelled yours like that :lol2:

 

BTW, I've lost track of how many great cars you have

 

The Other Ralph

BTW, I've lost track of how many great cars you have

 

The Other Ralph

 

 

My wife has not

 

 

The price you pay, for buying too many cars - It really is cozy inside

In the long run I believe cars are an enjoyable place to put money. People watch their stock go up/down all the time. A sunny day has no impact on enjoying it differently. What's a nice day driving a classic Italian V12 worth? The smell of hot oil, rich carbs & old leather??????

I just enjoy the cars.

 

 

That was a great post Ralph!

 

 

Pppplease do not talk anymore, about the 8k running 400GT. - Soon the tool kit will bring more than that (I reach for a box of Kleenex).

:lol2:

My dad was given a 250 GTO in high school from his father.

 

At the time my dad was soooo pissed because he felt the car was shit. So crude, and some what ugly.

 

In the early 70's he sold the car for $9,800 to purchase a Miura S. : )

 

 

BACK to the real topic....

 

A restoration really depends on the car and how nice you want it.

 

If you have a 98 point car, to get it to a 99.9 or 100 point car would cost as much as a full restoration for the 98 point car.

 

Its getting those last two points and that last step that is so important.

 

 

Certain cars like XKE's that are probablly the most difficult car to restore are simply not worth it in terms of dollars and cents.

 

Comparitive to a 275 GTB4 or Daytona which is simply a much easier car to restore.

 

 

Being around restorations my whole life, i have very rarely been impressed by what ive seen. Many people get hosed for 200k for something that is less than spectacular.

 

There was a black XK120 coupe that was circulating the restoration circuit for a while that was a true 99 point car. No one really gave it much attention because it was "only" a black XK120 coupe.

 

Whereas at the same show i saw it the black car at, a "shiny" 95 point red XK120 Roadster surpassed it, and won best of class.

Certain cars like XKE's that are probablly the most difficult car to restore are simply not worth it in terms of dollars and cents.

I'm not sure that's true any more. Top (99-100 pt) E-type roadsters are now fetching $120-150k, so assuming you got the car years ago for $10-20k, it might make sense. At least Jag parts are relatively cheap and readily available, unlike Lambo or Ferrari parts from the same era.