550-2 Balboni

wouldnt you rather have this than a "regular" s65 or s63 or even a portly looking bentley?

In reality, the chassis is off a next generation a8 sedan, meaning production development would be far far shorter than the rapide which is on an extended and new aluminum chassis and totally new panamera which is a new design from ground up. think of it as a mercedes cls which is off an e class chassis... Its still a fast and decent looking sedan and their development time was fairly quick... The engines from audi are all fairly up to date technology with direct injection , turbo etc. So, I disagree in terms of time frame that it wouldnt be able to compete with the mentioned brands. Besides, if Maserati can sell some quattroportes which is based on older Ferrari engine... why cant lamborghini? Oh and Bugatti's car would most likely be completely out of the target price range to be even a consideration.... I wouldnt see VW questioning its brand values but would be happy with a healthy boost in sales volume while preserving Lamborghini's mid engine range...

 

 

Right...

When the Estoque was launched at a show, everyone on here hated it. Now sales are down and everyone lauds it? Really?

 

Now while it is a good looking car after the initial shock lets look at a few things.

 

In reality, the chassis is off a next generation a8 sedan, meaning production development would be far far shorter than the rapide

 

Pick up any UK car magazine and the Rapide is being tested in the Kuwait desert.

Why is it being tested in the desert?

Two reasons.

 

One it is nearly ready so will be launched in 2010.

Secondly; aside from a company in Kuwait now being the majority shareholder in Aston: it is where the market is for this type of car. The Middle East.

The Middle East and Asian markets are still the emerging markets though at a rate slower than originally anticipated.. US and Euro markets are stagnant. This is because no one has money or those that have money are not going to fritter what they have away on a Lambo car that Porsche produce cheaper, that Aston will produce cheaper, that Bentley produce cheaper that AUDI produce cheaper, that VOLKSWAGEN produce cheaper...

And these are cars that are years ahead in production developement.

 

Then you mention the CLS which is looking dated already after its facelift...

 

Lambo part investing in a new line reliant upon its parent company is not the full solution here, especially when the profits for this production line will not be seen (if at all) until 2011-12.

Imagine Winkelmann trotting up to a VW parent meeting on boosting sales and he says

"hey great idea I am going to copy what you guys have done but I am adding in some slashes here and there and sticking a Lambo badge on it, your investment will be... well might be repaid two-three years down the line"

 

Shareholders will wonder wtf why they are paying him and wonder what is going on in a factory full of highly skilled people.

 

All the while no mention of any A8 being tested...

But you bet that Porsche are looking at the the Turbo S Panamera and more already.

 

Lambo are knuckling down on the Murcie replacement, engine chassis the lot. They don't need to fcuk about with a saloon when their budget is zilch. They will gather what funds they do have and put them into the flagship model - you can bet these funds were planned and set aside 2-3 years ago.

 

In short what with the money problems of Porsche, right now VW/Audi do not need a Leech which might pay them back three years down the road.

Those are all good points Chaos... I respect that response very much.

 

Bottom-line: Lamborghini SPa has some serious issues to deal with in the coming year.

 

Wait...... Did we ALL just willingly participate in a "thread-jack"? I forgot this was an LP550-2 thread.

OR maybe a true GT type car to compete with a Granturismo but with the power of a 599. A very easy transition to slam an LP-640 engine into a slick looking 2 door 2+2.

This is exactly what I think. It wouldn't be a departure from the historic line, and again, it would boost sales. The VW corporation has too many brands now, and there seems to be overlapping in some categories. Someone will have to go, or the brand lineups will have to change. Lambo, I wish you good luck!

So your solution to any short term fiscal issues Lambo may have are to produce a car which as yet has no development but will have competition from cars that are already approaching production after an advance pre-production cycle like the Aston Rapide or in production like the Porsche Panamera.

 

Plus Bugatti have something unknown to the motoring public up their sleeve which is rumoured to be four seater and you want Lambo to produce a car which every dog and his owner knows will be based on existing but now antiquated technology?

 

Please do not take this the wrong way but thank fcuk you are not in charge.

 

If Lambo produces another model which is heavily reliant upon it relatives then Volkswagen will question its worth within its brand values. It needs to investigate new technology which will make it shine amongst the other brands it owners has.

 

Short term financial issues? Lamborghini has had financial issues since day one. Only recently has the brand had financial success, and that lasted all of what, one year?

 

The next generation Audi A8 comes out in the next few months. The Estoque would logically be based on that. Before you call that antiquated and inferior technology, if you want a hint about engineering, very rarely is the best design chosen. The one that is easiest to produce for a given time frame however, is. So no matter what you purchase, it is old and out dated.

 

Aston Martin will never build a car as good as Audi can, here history tends to repeat itself. Secondly, I can confidently say that no one would choose a Panamera over an Estoque. The Rapide and Panamera are both hideous.

 

And if you think the Panamera and Rapide are years ahead of the next generation A8, you are off your rocker. Audi has a 20 year advantage over Porsche and Aston. To throw some Lamborghini makeup on the next gen A8, would not be that difficult. It would be similar to say, throwing Bentley make up on a VW. And we all know how that worked out for the less expensive model.

 

Bugatti has had zero impact on the rest of the VW line. The next logical influence Bugatti would have in the VW group would have been Bentley, and there has been absolutely no impact there.If anything a four door Bugatti will be priced higher than the Bentley Mulsanne, therefore not competing with a 140K Lamborghini.

 

Lamborghini betting the farm on an LP replacement would be idiotic. Lamborghini is struggling selling one of the best cars out there, the LP560, at 250K. It would be much easier to sell a 140 thousand dollar car that people can justify, either to their wife or to their company, than a five hundred thousand dollar one. It is unfortunate that Lamborghini shot itself in the right foot by increasing the price of the Gallardo over the years, and now its only crutch can be another 140-150 thousand dollar car.

 

No matter what VW will question the worth of Lamborghini.That is just part of being a responsible business. Just like they will question the worth of Bentley, Audi, Porsche, Seat.

 

I am all for adding a third car to the line up. Lamborghini needs three primary cars, almost all manufactures do. Look at BMW with the 3,5,7. Mercedes with the C/E/S. Audi with the A4/6/8. Ferrari with the california, 458,599. Bentley with the three different CGT variants.

 

P.S. Did you know that Aston also tested the car in northern Sweden, to prepare for that massive antarctic market.

 

Cars are tested in certain areas due to costs, nothing more, nothing less. The company will go to wherever it is the most cost effective to test under certain conditions.

 

Those are all good points Chaos... I respect that response very much.

 

Bottom-line: Lamborghini SPa has some serious issues to deal with in the coming year.

 

Wait...... Did we ALL just willingly participate in a "thread-jack"? I forgot this was an LP550-2 thread.

Thank you and yes this is a epic thread jack!

 

Short term financial issues? Lamborghini has had financial issues since day one. Only recently has the brand had financial success, and that lasted all of what, one year?

 

Thing is, it is not just Lambo that are suffering it is everyone and forecasts are predicting that after the end of this and early part of next year the growth may start again. Hence short term.

People give Winkelmann shit on here but he has made Lambo a profitable entity.

The forecasts for this financial tsunami are that the big wave has hit. All we have to do now is ride out the smaller waves.

 

The next generation Audi A8 comes out in the next few months. The Estoque would logically be based on that. Before you call that antiquated and inferior technology, if you want a hint about engineering, very rarely is the best design chosen. The one that is easiest to produce for a given time frame however, is. So no matter what you purchase, it is old and out dated.

 

Aston Martin will never build a car as good as Audi can, here history tends to repeat itself. Secondly, I can confidently say that no one would choose a Panamera over an Estoque. The Rapide and Panamera are both hideous.

 

And if you think the Panamera and Rapide are years ahead of the next generation A8, you are off your rocker. Audi has a 20 year advantage over Porsche and Aston. To throw some Lamborghini makeup on the next gen A8, would not be that difficult. It would be similar to say, throwing Bentley make up on a VW. And we all know how that worked out for the less expensive model.

 

Couple of points here I think I can agree on and some I certainly disagree.

Aston reliability and engineering etc is yes behind... well most companies!

But Porsche R&D is far superior to the that of Audi. DSG for example... Porsche developed product and there is lots more in the wings.

Audi R&D is not as much as you would think. I have tried to find the website which has the figures spent over the last decade but cannot find it.

 

Bugatti has had zero impact on the rest of the VW line. The next logical influence Bugatti would have in the VW group would have been Bentley, and there has been absolutely no impact there.If anything a four door Bugatti will be priced higher than the Bentley Mulsanne, therefore not competing with a 140K Lamborghini.

I mentioned Bug earlier because as yet it is unclear what the next model will be in the anniversary year for this marque. Some say it will be a large GT 2+2 which will put anything else into the shade.

 

Effectively you are requesting more money to create, tool up and educate staff on to produce a new model which is an Audi in everything but the skin and badge.

You then have to do all the promo and marketing.

You then have to sell it to the already struggling fiscally raped dealers who will have to find money to not only buy the cars but the servicing tools and training...

That is money and time that is not there

 

You then put this model in the shade when the new Bug is released. I just think that when you put the Porsche/VW/Audi entire family models into a Venn diagram there will be a multiple overlap and too many in the prestigious four seater section. By creating a new four seater you will be luring a small sect of people away from its own kind.

We are sitting here and no one actually knows what is going on at Audi and Porsche with the power struggle, no one knows what is actually happening at Lambo and what plans the upper echelon have but I am pretty certain the powers that be will see that spending money to develop/produce a car which will tread on the toes of its siblings is going to be a problem

Again that is money and time that is not there hence...

 

Lamborghini betting the farm on an LP replacement would be idiotic. Lamborghini is struggling selling one of the best cars out there, the LP560, at 250K. It would be much easier to sell a 140 thousand dollar car that people can justify, either to their wife or to their company, than a five hundred thousand dollar one. It is unfortunate that Lamborghini shot itself in the right foot by increasing the price of the Gallardo over the years, and now its only crutch can be another 140-150 thousand dollar car.

 

Again I would bet that Lambo have been given a large chunk of cash to develop the Murcie replacement. In the long term forecast money has been allocated to this.

 

No matter what VW will question the worth of Lamborghini.That is just part of being a responsible business. Just like they will question the worth of Bentley, Audi, Porsche, Seat.

 

I am all for adding a third car to the line up. Lamborghini needs three primary cars, almost all manufactures do. Look at BMW with the 3,5,7. Mercedes with the C/E/S. Audi with the A4/6/8. Ferrari with the california, 458,599. Bentley with the three different CGT variants.

Agreed I think they should add another line. But personally I do not think this is the time to do it even if they had the cash to do it and I certainly don't think it should be a saloon or large GT2+2.

It treads on too many family toes in a small market.

 

P.S. Did you know that Aston also tested the car in northern Sweden, to prepare for that massive antarctic market.

 

Cars are tested in certain areas due to costs, nothing more, nothing less. The company will go to wherever it is the most cost effective to test under certain conditions.

I know about where cars are tested etc but they have made a huge deal about testing in Kuwait.

In my mind the only reason a company would show off testing is gauge reaction in its market.

I worked for Ricardos for 6 months before I went to Uni (many many many many moons ago now) and the testing regime was eye opening and very secretive for every model. So why a huge fanfare about testing in the middle east?

To me it is to showcase it in its prime markets back garden.

Thing is, it is not just Lambo that are suffering it is everyone and forecasts are predicting that after the end of this and early part of next year the growth may start again. Hence short term.

People give Winkelmann shit on here but he has made Lambo a profitable entity.

The forecasts for this financial tsunami are that the big wave has hit. All we have to do now is ride out the smaller waves.

 

Agreed.

 

 

 

Couple of points here I think I can agree on and some I certainly disagree.

Aston reliability and engineering etc is yes behind... well most companies!

But Porsche R&D is far superior to the that of Audi. DSG for example... Porsche developed product and there is lots more in the wings.

Audi R&D is not as much as you would think. I have tried to find the website which has the figures spent over the last decade but cannot find it.

 

Also agree that as a whole Porsche has superior R&D to Audi. However Audi does have one thing Porsche does not have when it comes to building a large sedan, experience.

 

 

I mentioned Bug earlier because as yet it is unclear what the next model will be in the anniversary year for this marque. Some say it will be a large GT 2+2 which will put anything else into the shade.

Again, I agreed. IMHO as Bugatti is VWs halo brand, anything they develop will have zero competition/overlap.

 

 

Effectively you are requesting more money to create, tool up and educate staff on to produce a new model which is an Audi in everything but the skin and badge.

You then have to do all the promo and marketing.

You then have to sell it to the already struggling fiscally raped dealers who will have to find money to not only buy the cars but the servicing tools and training...

That is money and time that is not there

 

The money is there, but is Audi willing to spend it. If I were Lamborghini I would allow certain prestigious Audi dealerships to sell Lamborghini. Similar to AMG performance centers being only at the largest dealers for MB. It would bring costs down significantly for the dealers, and allow Lambo owners easier access to a dealer. If certain Ford dealers can deal with the GT, and certain Nissan dealers the GTR, Lamborghinis can be serviced at your Audi dealer.

 

You then put this model in the shade when the new Bug is released. I just think that when you put the Porsche/VW/Audi entire family models into a Venn diagram there will be a multiple overlap and too many in the prestigious four seater section. By creating a new four seater you will be luring a small sect of people away from its own kind.

We are sitting here and no one actually knows what is going on at Audi and Porsche with the power struggle, no one knows what is actually happening at Lambo and what plans the upper echelon have but I am pretty certain the powers that be will see that spending money to develop/produce a car which will tread on the toes of its siblings is going to be a problem

Again that is money and time that is not there hence...

 

 

Totally agree with the overlap, and it looks like VW is going to try and fix that diagram. However, again, IMHO, the Lamborghini brand name has a lot of value at 140K. Much more than VW at 80k. Also anyone who is looking at a Bugatti four door, will not cross shop with Lambo. I mean that is the equivalent to saying a passat is overshadowed by a flying spur, of course it will be, but that is why they are priced differently.

 

 

I know about where cars are tested etc but they have made a huge deal about testing in Kuwait.

In my mind the only reason a company would show off testing is gauge reaction in its market.

I worked for Ricardos for 6 months before I went to Uni (many many many many moons ago now) and the testing regime was eye opening and very secretive for every model. So why a huge fanfare about testing in the middle east?

To me it is to showcase it in its prime markets back garden.

 

Or it could be Dar trying to showcase AM to sell off a portion of their stake in AM, IMHO only a few know the true reasoning as to why they make such a big deal out of the Kuwaiti testing.

 

 

 

 

 

So exactly like they did with the SE Gallardo which turned out not to be so special edition but in fact the 05/06 car...

 

 

yeah so much for 'honoring' valentino; at the end of the day just trying to bump another 250 gallardos out the door and charge a premium for it.

 

they reckon all they need are 250 fanboys and they're all set. Bring back the days where lambo was exclusive please!