Joe Z's Verde Ithaca LP560 Heffner TT Build Thread

That really is a factory look. Awesome!

Looking good, Jason!!

Great to see you continue to innovate.

 

Cheers

 

J

Very nice. When you quote WHP is that RWHP or at all fours?

 

Do you ship out kits to Australia?? Cost??

 

 

Jason can comment but I am 99% sure it is RWHP.

Thanks for all of the positive comments. It was a lot of fun to see this system come together. Our quoted numbers are rwhp.

 

We do ship systems worldwide, provided that we can verify that there is a reputable installer available. These systems are not for the driveway installer.

fantastic setup. congrats.

Wish the pre-560 install (electronics) was that slick.

Kisco,

 

I do feel completely comfortable with these engines at the 800 whp mark on pump gas. It is important to understand the benefits of direct injection to fuly understand how this is possible. On a normal port injected car, fuel is injected into the intake runner and goes into the combustion chamber significantly before the piston reaches top dead center. If the combustion chamber temperature is high enough, the fuel will ignite before the spark plug fires which creates the term that we know as "detonation". On a direct injected engine, the fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber a very short time before the spark plug fires at a much higher pressure. This gives the fuel a better atomization, more efficient combustion and significantly reduces your chances of detonating the engine. Of course, in the event that you meet the conditions required to create detonation, the knock sensors are there to compensate immediately.

 

800 whp on pump gas at stock compression, ouch! The real problem is that the rods and pistons are cast and there isn't much room for error with those cast engine parts if or when the detonation happens. When the knock sensors pickup the knock or detonation, will it be too late? Why not just build the engine at that power level and not take the chance of destroying an engine? I guess if you feel completely comfortable there must be an engine warranty?

 

Well done with the build Jason! That's what I'm talking about!

Are there blowoff valves under the I/C? Am I just missing them somewhere?

 

Meticulous turbo system Jason. Love the attention to detail.

S-351, those are valid concerns though not any more valid than on any other engine. If a car is tuned properly, you won't be relying on knock sensors to save your engine. If it's not tuned properly, say someone was to just leave the stock calibration and rely solely on knock sensors to remove timing when it detonates, your probably going to blow it up regardless. The pistons are very nicely done pieces made by Mahle. Lots of material above the ring land, coated skirts, very robust. The rods have been used in numerous bolt on applications as well as a few higher horsepower applications with lowered compression and have proven to be capable of handling the power. So when I say that I feel comfortable, it's not based on a theory that makes me feel like it should be OK. It's based on testing, experience and numerous cars being run very hard for a long time without fail.

 

We do warranty the engine against tuning defects. If the engine fails and it is apparent that the car was running too lean or knocking as a result of improper tuning, we will cover it. If your engine fails because you ran it half empty on oil, we won't cover it.

Yes, there are recirculating diverter valves under the intercooler.

S-351, those are valid concerns though not any more valid than on any other engine. If a car is tuned properly, you won't be relying on knock sensors to save your engine. If it's not tuned properly, say someone was to just leave the stock calibration and rely solely on knock sensors to remove timing when it detonates, your probably going to blow it up regardless. The pistons are very nicely done pieces made by Mahle. Lots of material above the ring land, coated skirts, very robust. The rods have been used in numerous bolt on applications as well as a few higher horsepower applications with lowered compression and have proven to be capable of handling the power. So when I say that I feel comfortable, it's not based on a theory that makes me feel like it should be OK. It's based on testing, experience and numerous cars being run very hard for a long time without fail.

 

We do warranty the engine against tuning defects. If the engine fails and it is apparent that the car was running too lean or knocking as a result of improper tuning, we will cover it. If your engine fails because you ran it half empty on oil, we won't cover it.

 

 

Obviously but look at it this way. The car throws a connecting rod out of the engine. It needs a new engine. The tune seemed ok and the customer had the right amount of oil in the engine. Would you replace the engine?

...The car throws a connecting rod out of the engine. It needs a new engine. The tune seemed ok and the customer had the right amount of oil in the engine. Would you replace the engine?

That scenario could happen whether it's got stock rods or Oliver rods... In the event of a truly indeterminable issue (no apparent tune or mechanical problems), I wouldn't expect the responsibility to fall onto the tuner/builder. At some point, the customer needs to assume some risk in a performance build.

That scenario could happen whether it's got stock rods or Oliver rods... In the event of a truly indeterminable issue (no apparent tune or mechanical problems), I wouldn't expect the responsibility to fall onto the tuner/builder. At some point, the customer needs to assume some risk in a performance build.

 

This is a wonderful post. I'm glad to see others out there who are willing to accept the fact that this is an expensive hobby to play in, and there are potential consequences of doing so. Hey, we paid for the car and the turbo system, you better well be able to afford keeping up on it!

 

Anywho, to Heffner, thank you for putting out such detailed information about your operating system on the car. I enjoyed learning about just how your company goes about safely adding boost to these delicate machines.

 

I thought it was very interesting to read that you continue to use the factory electronics for fueling and ignition timing. I'm sure that means there are a lot of advantages to safely making the claimed power levels and that's probably why the effort has been made to maintain the engine as a direct injection system.

 

Obviously there is a large amount of detail work in both the system design, but the hardware placement. Look at the line routing for all of the oil/coolant/vacuum lines in the center! I love seeing what looks like heat sleeve on all of it, and NOT seeing lines hanging all over the cars braces, rear, etc.

 

One thing though, as seeing UR just put up an LP of theirs making an astonishing 1200 whp on 93 octane, is this system able to be upgraded to make stratospheric power levels like that also? I would like to upgrade my 570 with a TT system soon and love the appearance of this system in both and aesthetics and technical standpoint... but knowing me the desire for power will always be greater than what I currently have! So will this system be able to be upgraded in the future for more power?

 

I appreciate your stand of being open on the details, and I look forward to seeing your reply.

 

Thanks.

 

BF570

Love the attention to detail and the step by step process you took to arrive at the final product. It is much more difficult to reinvent the wheel than it is to use the same set up, parts, location, etc of prior builds. If more tuners took an educational approach, I am sure they would find more eager consumers.

Obviously but look at it this way. The car throws a connecting rod out of the engine. It needs a new engine. The tune seemed ok and the customer had the right amount of oil in the engine. Would you replace the engine?

 

In the event of a failure where there is no evidence that points toward a tuning defect or turbo system related cause, no. We do also offer fully built engines with billet connecting rods, lowered compression, higher boost and more power. It has been our determination that the internal components of this engine are more than adequate to handle this and have been tested to an even higher level than what we release in a warrantied production system.

 

In the event of a failure where there is no evidence that points toward a tuning defect or turbo system related cause, no.

 

As you posted, you feel "completely comfortable" with the stock engine living at 800 WHP on pump gas. I guess not comfortable enough to back the statement with a warranty. The problem is you don't know what you're getting when you are using cast rods and pistons from a mass production assembly line. Too bad they don't put better engine parts in these cars or I would be all over getting a bolt on TT 570.

 

 

As you posted, you feel "completely comfortable" with the stock engine living at 800 WHP on pump gas. I guess not comfortable enough to back the statement with a warranty. The problem is you don't know what you're getting when you are using cast rods and pistons from a mass production assembly line. Too bad they don't put better engine parts in these cars or I would be all over getting a bolt on TT 570.

Forgive me here, as I've not seen the Lambo engine internals first-hand, but do you have any data showing they actually contain "cast" rods? Heffner stated that the pistons are coated Mahle's with a healthy top ringland, so I would find it really odd of Lamborghini to connect them to the crank with a connecting rod as "cheap" as you're seeming to portray. Again, forgive me as I haven't taken down one of these engines, but I'd sure like to have a look at the parts.

Forgive me here, as I've not seen the Lambo engine internals first-hand, but do you have any data showing they actually contain "cast" rods? Heffner stated that the pistons are coated Mahle's with a healthy top ringland, so I would find it really odd of Lamborghini to connect them to the crank with a connecting rod as "cheap" as you're seeming to portray. Again, forgive me as I haven't taken down one of these engines, but I'd sure like to have a look at the parts.

 

Do some research on cast rods and pistons. They are not the rods of choice and they are a lot cheaper for the factory to install VS forged. I'm sure they are fine for non boosted applications for the most part even though there have been failures in these engines with NO boost. The 560 doesn't have forged internals, unfortunately.

 

Nice work. That's a great looking setup.

Jason,

 

What is the cost of this kit uninstalled.

Please PM me if you don't want to disclose it in public.

And yes the place I am thinking of has already fitted one of your kits

here in Sydney

Do some research on cast rods and pistons. They are not the rods of choice and they are a lot cheaper for the factory to install VS forged. I'm sure they are fine for non boosted applications for the most part even though there have been failures in these engines with NO boost. The 560 doesn't have forged internals, unfortunately.

 

 

The man asked you if you have ever seen the internals of the 560 and from your response, I guess that is a NO!!

 

On the other hand, this is not a little boys hobby. It was stated earlier and I will say it again.......anything can happen at anytime and sometimes that is the price to play!!!

 

I will also say that if anyone will honor a defect, it is Jason. He is a standup guy and runs a very reputable shop. I have no doubts he would assume responsibility in the case it was a failure due to his workmanship/tuning.

 

 

This is a wonderful post. I'm glad to see others out there who are willing to accept the fact that this is an expensive hobby to play in, and there are potential consequences of doing so. Hey, we paid for the car and the turbo system, you better well be able to afford keeping up on it!

 

Anywho, to Heffner, thank you for putting out such detailed information about your operating system on the car. I enjoyed learning about just how your company goes about safely adding boost to these delicate machines.

 

I thought it was very interesting to read that you continue to use the factory electronics for fueling and ignition timing. I'm sure that means there are a lot of advantages to safely making the claimed power levels and that's probably why the effort has been made to maintain the engine as a direct injection system.

 

Obviously there is a large amount of detail work in both the system design, but the hardware placement. Look at the line routing for all of the oil/coolant/vacuum lines in the center! I love seeing what looks like heat sleeve on all of it, and NOT seeing lines hanging all over the cars braces, rear, etc.

 

One thing though, as seeing UR just put up an LP of theirs making an astonishing 1200 whp on 93 octane, is this system able to be upgraded to make stratospheric power levels like that also? I would like to upgrade my 570 with a TT system soon and love the appearance of this system in both and aesthetics and technical standpoint... but knowing me the desire for power will always be greater than what I currently have! So will this system be able to be upgraded in the future for more power?

 

I appreciate your stand of being open on the details, and I look forward to seeing your reply.

 

Thanks.

 

BF570

 

I am glad there are people out there that see all the fine tuned elements of the Heffner engine compartments!! All of Jason's employees take pride in their work and the fit and finish is second to none. I like you, are bothered by zip tying lines all over the engine compartment on a $200,000 car. Seeing this done drives me insane and is just one of the reasons I chose Heffners Performance!!

 

Jason has already received a lot of the parts for my second round of the build. We have chosen to build it in 2 stages and yes we will be taking this car to the same if not more than my Superleggera which was north of 1200.

 

Jason is one to know that you can never have enough power.....

 

 

 

 

 

great looking setup Jason!

LPOZ, the retail cost for this system, installed, tuned and ready to go is $39,000. We have sent a handful of our systems to Australian installers over the past few months and they have all gone very well. Your installer should be able to help with any information on this system and of course you should always feel free to contact me directly. I'm always happy to help.

 

BruteForce570, I must say that I am impressed with your ability to spot the details. We put a lot of effort into ensuring that these systems continue to function properly for the long haul. In addition to covering all of the water, oil and vacuum hoses in a thermal sleeve, we have also incorporated water cooled wastegates into this system. This car will in fact top the 1200 whp mark once we complete phase two. For now it's going to head back to New York for a couple of months (more likely a couple of weeks, knowing Joe) so Joe can enjoy some of the good driving weather that they have headed their way. I'd be quite happy to discuss any and all details of this system with you. If you'd like, pm me your contact info and I'll give you a call.

 

Liquid, thank you. I'm glad to hear that you have enjoyed seeing how it all comes together.

 

S-351, everyone has limits to their liability. The limits of our liability end with covering repair costs for failures that are not caused by our product to items that were not purchased or built by us. I, as well as many other shops, can sell you a number of items that may void your factory warranty and increase the power output of your engine and not be liable for an engine failure.

 

I sell exhaust systems for cars as well. These exhaust systems provide an increase in power. Many dealers will void your warranty on certain cars for modifying the exhaust. Am I confident that your engine can handle the increase in power that the exhaust system provides? Yes. If your engine fails sometime after we have installed an exhaust system on your car, the dealer won't warranty it because the exhaust has been changed and there are no signs that our exhaust system or installation has caused your engine to fail, will we buy you an engine? No.

 

Audi has recently announced that all cars that are brought into their facilities may have the engine control modules read and that warranties will be voided on cars that have modified engine calibrations. If someone sells you an upgraded engine calibration that increases the power output of your engine, which you are aware will void your warranty, and sometime down the road a connecting rod snaps, will you expect the provider of the calibration to cover it if there are no signs that their calibration caused the damage? If so, you may want to consider not doing such an upgrade to your car.

 

What if the transmission or clutch fails on one of these cars? I think anyone could quite easily say that the additional horsepower could have contributed to the failure. Will any provider of turbo systems for these cars warranty your stock transmission if it fails? I doubt it. Many do however sell upgrades for the transmissions that reinforce parts that are the most likely to fail and will warranty the upgrades that they sell you.

 

We do also offer complete engine packages. If the factory internals are a concern to any customer, we can do a fully built engine with upgraded pistons, connecting rods, valves, valve springs, retainers etc. that we will indeed warranty in the event of a failure, provided the engine has not been used in a neglectful manner.

 

When you send your car to a tuner to be upgraded it is important to comprehend what you are getting and make sure that you get what you want. If you are buying a turbo system, you get a turbo system, not an extended powertrain warranty, not a new car, not a new engine, not a new transmission. If you want a new engine and a new transmission and the warranties that come with these items, they are available for purchase.

 

It is important that anyone upgrading a car understands the potential risks that are associated with the upgrades that they are doing. I speak to some people that choose to wait until their factory warranty expires prior to performing any upgrades. On the other hand, we also receive cars on a regular basis that are shipped straight to us from the dealership. We as well as other similar businesses cater to a number of different types of people with different mind sets. There are many niches within this niche market which is why we offer a number of options to choose from.

 

Joe, again, I can't thank you enough. The truck will be here this morning and to you by the weekend. As always it has been a great pleasure to work with you and I look forward to getting phase two underway. We got a lot of great pictures of the car yesterday. We'll go through and pick out the really good ones and post them up.

 

Ray, thanks. It's been a little while. Let's catch up soon.