Joe Z's Verde Ithaca LP560 Heffner TT Build Thread

S-351, everyone has limits to their liability. The limits of our liability end with covering repair costs for failures that are not caused by our product to items that were not purchased or built by us. I, as well as many other shops, can sell you a number of items that may void your factory warranty and increase the power output of your engine and not be liable for an engine failure.

 

You cant compare an exhaust system to a turbo system on a stock engines longevity, that's a bit silly. A higher flowing exhaust isn't going to put the extreme load on a stock engine like the twin turbo system will. I don't blame you though, if I were you I defiantly wouldn't cover a stock engine with cast internals after putting a turbo system on it.

LPOZ, the retail cost for this system, installed, tuned and ready to go is $39,000. We have sent a handful of our systems to Australian installers over the past few months and they have all gone very well. Your installer should be able to help with any information on this system and of course you should always feel free to contact me directly. I'm always happy to help.

 

BruteForce570, I must say that I am impressed with your ability to spot the details. We put a lot of effort into ensuring that these systems continue to function properly for the long haul. In addition to covering all of the water, oil and vacuum hoses in a thermal sleeve, we have also incorporated water cooled wastegates into this system. This car will in fact top the 1200 whp mark once we complete phase two. For now it's going to head back to New York for a couple of months (more likely a couple of weeks, knowing Joe) so Joe can enjoy some of the good driving weather that they have headed their way. I'd be quite happy to discuss any and all details of this system with you. If you'd like, pm me your contact info and I'll give you a call.

 

Liquid, thank you. I'm glad to hear that you have enjoyed seeing how it all comes together.

 

S-351, everyone has limits to their liability. The limits of our liability end with covering repair costs for failures that are not caused by our product to items that were not purchased or built by us. I, as well as many other shops, can sell you a number of items that may void your factory warranty and increase the power output of your engine and not be liable for an engine failure.

 

I sell exhaust systems for cars as well. These exhaust systems provide an increase in power. Many dealers will void your warranty on certain cars for modifying the exhaust. Am I confident that your engine can handle the increase in power that the exhaust system provides? Yes. If your engine fails sometime after we have installed an exhaust system on your car, the dealer won't warranty it because the exhaust has been changed and there are no signs that our exhaust system or installation has caused your engine to fail, will we buy you an engine? No.

 

Audi has recently announced that all cars that are brought into their facilities may have the engine control modules read and that warranties will be voided on cars that have modified engine calibrations. If someone sells you an upgraded engine calibration that increases the power output of your engine, which you are aware will void your warranty, and sometime down the road a connecting rod snaps, will you expect the provider of the calibration to cover it if there are no signs that their calibration caused the damage? If so, you may want to consider not doing such an upgrade to your car.

 

What if the transmission or clutch fails on one of these cars? I think anyone could quite easily say that the additional horsepower could have contributed to the failure. Will any provider of turbo systems for these cars warranty your stock transmission if it fails? I doubt it. Many do however sell upgrades for the transmissions that reinforce parts that are the most likely to fail and will warranty the upgrades that they sell you.

 

We do also offer complete engine packages. If the factory internals are a concern to any customer, we can do a fully built engine with upgraded pistons, connecting rods, valves, valve springs, retainers etc. that we will indeed warranty in the event of a failure, provided the engine has not been used in a neglectful manner.

 

When you send your car to a tuner to be upgraded it is important to comprehend what you are getting and make sure that you get what you want. If you are buying a turbo system, you get a turbo system, not an extended powertrain warranty, not a new car, not a new engine, not a new transmission. If you want a new engine and a new transmission and the warranties that come with these items, they are available for purchase.

 

It is important that anyone upgrading a car understands the potential risks that are associated with the upgrades that they are doing. I speak to some people that choose to wait until their factory warranty expires prior to performing any upgrades. On the other hand, we also receive cars on a regular basis that are shipped straight to us from the dealership. We as well as other similar businesses cater to a number of different types of people with different mind sets. There are many niches within this niche market which is why we offer a number of options to choose from.

 

Joe, again, I can't thank you enough. The truck will be here this morning and to you by the weekend. As always it has been a great pleasure to work with you and I look forward to getting phase two underway. We got a lot of great pictures of the car yesterday. We'll go through and pick out the really good ones and post them up.

 

Ray, thanks. It's been a little while. Let's catch up soon.

great info jay

I am glad there are people out there that see all the fine tuned elements of the Heffner engine compartments!! All of Jason's employees take pride in their work and the fit and finish is second to none. I like you, are bothered by zip tying lines all over the engine compartment on a $200,000 car. Seeing this done drives me insane and is just one of the reasons I chose Heffners Performance!!

 

Jason has already received a lot of the parts for my second round of the build. We have chosen to build it in 2 stages and yes we will be taking this car to the same if not more than my Superleggera which was north of 1200.

 

Jason is one to know that you can never have enough power.....

 

I like the idea of being able to do a stepped upgrade approach, both for the fun of experiencing the different levels, and the gradual increase to become accustomed to the power gains.

 

Thank you sir, it's part of my nature and business to pay attention to details. I wish I had the time to tinker with my car myself on these types of projects and levels, but the cost to me is outweighed by what I could be doing elsewhere, elsewise.

 

That's where I come to this level of inquisition and scrutiny. I wouldn't feel comfortable putting my vehicle into the hands of any tuner without the right questions getting the right answers.

 

 

BruteForce570, I must say that I am impressed with your ability to spot the details. We put a lot of effort into ensuring that these systems continue to function properly for the long haul. In addition to covering all of the water, oil and vacuum hoses in a thermal sleeve, we have also incorporated water cooled wastegates into this system. This car will in fact top the 1200 whp mark once we complete phase two. For now it's going to head back to New York for a couple of months (more likely a couple of weeks, knowing Joe) so Joe can enjoy some of the good driving weather that they have headed their way. I'd be quite happy to discuss any and all details of this system with you. If you'd like, pm me your contact info and I'll give you a call.

 

That's great information to know, thanks for clarification. Heat control has to be a high level of concern I would imagine.

 

I see your company mentioning much about the dyno results of your systems and street driveability, but does anyone use them to compete? It'd be foolish to think that your customers finished cars don't get used in speed contests on the streets (like the LP700 vs the TT black SuperG video I saw some time back), but what about actual track testing? What kind of road course punishment have your cars been put through to test their complete behavior in extreme conditions, if any? A mannerism that straight line racing can only test a portion of in my humble opinion.

 

Thanks for your time. Perhaps I will take you up on the offer of the phone discussion. I think more people than just myself would like to see and read the answers to my questions as well though.

 

BF570

The man asked you if you have ever seen the internals of the 560 and from your response, I guess that is a NO!!

 

I don't need to see them, they are cast. Do you need verification that the rods and pistons are made from castings? Either way, good to hear that you plan to upgrade those parts soon.

I the midst of all of that typing I forgot to mention that the pistons in these engines are not cast. They are forged from 4032 aluminum.

 

As far as connecting rods go I feel that it is worth explaining that connecting rods generally fail for one of two reasons. The first being excessive rpm. Since we are not raising the operating rpm range of the engine with this turbo system, we are not inflicting any additional rpm related stress on the connecting rods.

 

The second common reason for failures is excessive cylinder pressure. In some instances you can actually force so much air into an engine that you fold the connecting rod in half. At less than ten pounds of boost, we are nowhere near being in danger of this.

 

I hope that this alleviates some of the concerns regarding rods and pistons.

I don't need to see them, they are cast. Do you need verification that the rods and pistons are made from castings? Either way, good to hear that you plan to upgrade those parts soon.

 

I guess one way to go about seeing how these high CR motors hold up with boost, on stock internals, on 93 octane is to:

 

1) Ask the owners of the vehicles that have these set-ups how their cars have been holding up and/or what kind of driving style have they put their cars through to get a better picture of engine longevity.

 

2) Ask the tuner(s) themselves what their experiences have been like with bolt on systems on these high CR motors. I know Jason said that he feels very comfrotable with 800 whp on these cars.

 

I think this is a little more of an objective approach to understanding the life span of these motors under boost than just assuming they will not last given their internal composition.

I the midst of all of that typing I forgot to mention that the pistons in these engines are not cast. They are forged from 4032 aluminum.

 

As far as connecting rods go I feel that it is worth explaining that connecting rods generally fail for one of two reasons. The first being excessive rpm. Since we are not raising the operating rpm range of the engine with this turbo system, we are not inflicting any additional rpm related stress on the connecting rods.

 

The second common reason for failures is excessive cylinder pressure. In some instances you can actually force so much air into an engine that you fold the connecting rod in half. At less than ten pounds of boost, we are nowhere near being in danger of this.

 

I hope that this alleviates some of the concerns regarding rods and pistons.

 

Great info, Jason. I did not know that. Thanks.

I the midst of all of that typing I forgot to mention that the pistons in these engines are not cast. They are forged from 4032 aluminum.

 

As far as connecting rods go I feel that it is worth explaining that connecting rods generally fail for one of two reasons. The first being excessive rpm. Since we are not raising the operating rpm range of the engine with this turbo system, we are not inflicting any additional rpm related stress on the connecting rods.

 

The second common reason for failures is excessive cylinder pressure. In some instances you can actually force so much air into an engine that you fold the connecting rod in half. At less than ten pounds of boost, we are nowhere near being in danger of this.

 

I hope that this alleviates some of the concerns regarding rods and pistons.

 

That's good to hear. I'm worried about the rods though. There was a stock V10 R8 that through a rod out of it and the car was totally stock. Just makes me worry about the bolt on.

I the midst of all of that typing I forgot to mention that the pistons in these engines are not cast. They are forged from 4032 aluminum.

 

How do the internals of the 04-08 cars compare? Thx.

I guess one way to go about seeing how these high CR motors hold up with boost, on stock internals, on 93 octane is to:

 

1) Ask the owners of the vehicles...

2) Ask the tuner(s) themselves...

Logically, yes. But don't forget that on the internets everyone is an expert and has vast experience. The proof is in the pudding - If these cars were blowing up (and the tuners not taking responsibility), we'd all have known about it long ago.

Logically, yes. But don't forget that on the internets everyone is an expert and has vast experience. The proof is in the pudding - If these cars were blowing up (and the tuners not taking responsibility), we'd all have known about it long ago.

 

Which is the point I was ultimately trying to make...

 

I am sure between all the tuners out there, there are more than a dozen bolt on TT 560s running around and like you mentioned, if they were blowing up, we would hear about it one way or another.

 

Also, if a bolt on kit was not reliable on these cars despite their high CR, then neither UGR, Heffner, or any other shop would allow for such a build. But since they both have pumped out several bolt on kits for these cars, one can only assume that they feel it's a safe application.

 

I am heavily contemplating a bolt on TT kit and this thread is very informative..

 

I am really looking forward to hearing Joe's thoughts on how the car feels / runs when he gets his back for the little time that he will have it.

I don't need to see them, they are cast.

 

...the pistons in these engines are not cast. They are forged from 4032 aluminum.

 

That's good to hear.

 

Good info. Always good to put uninformed potential customer's minds at ease.

That's good to hear. I'm worried about the rods though. There was a stock V10 R8 that through a rod out of it and the car was totally stock. Just makes me worry about the bolt on.

 

Your concern is certainly valid. I have also heard of numerous stock 04 - 08 Gallardos having engines fail as well which is exactly why we can not guarantee an engine that we did not build. To be fair, for every stock V10 R8 or LP560 that suffers this type of failure there are thousands that do not.

I will let everyone know how she feels / does this coming weekend or the beginning of next week. I am sure my wife will be calling and calling screaming at me to get home already!!

 

Going to be a great weekend....can't wait.

I don't need to see them, they are cast. Do you need verification that the rods and pistons are made from castings? Either way, good to hear that you plan to upgrade those parts soon.

 

 

I guess you spoke too soon....!!

I the midst of all of that typing I forgot to mention that the pistons in these engines are not cast. They are forged from 4032 aluminum.

 

As far as connecting rods go I feel that it is worth explaining that connecting rods generally fail for one of two reasons. The first being excessive rpm. Since we are not raising the operating rpm range of the engine with this turbo system, we are not inflicting any additional rpm related stress on the connecting rods.

 

The second common reason for failures is excessive cylinder pressure. In some instances you can actually force so much air into an engine that you fold the connecting rod in half. At less than ten pounds of boost, we are nowhere near being in danger of this.

 

I hope that this alleviates some of the concerns regarding rods and pistons.

 

That's great information to read, I appreciate you posting about the forging material.

 

I would still like some information on your turbo systems testing, as I posted earlier on.

 

If you could please explain some of the racing/testing that is done with your various platforms, especially with the factory ECU controlled vehicles like the R8's and LP series cars, it would help prove some outside claims false.

 

Thanks.

 

BF570

 

That's great information to read, I appreciate you posting about the forging material.

 

I would still like some information on your turbo systems testing, as I posted earlier on.

 

If you could please explain some of the racing/testing that is done with your various platforms, especially with the factory ECU controlled vehicles like the R8's and LP series cars, it would help prove some outside claims false.

 

Thanks.

 

BF570

 

 

I am sure Jason would explain all of this to you. Just give him a buzz as he is really a great guy!!! I think you would be impressed as to what he has done.

 

PM anytime and if I can help, I sure will. I am not as smart as Jason and his team though!!

That system looks awesome! Also, kudoz for being so up front answering all questions and acting like a true class act. I wanted to visit when I was in Miami last month but there was no time between the drinking and the, um, drinking

How do the internals of the 04-08 cars compare? Thx.

 

The rods are quite similar. I will reach out to Mahle to get some more detailed information on the earlier pistons. The crankshafts are considerably different as are the block and heads.

That's great information to read, I appreciate you posting about the forging material.

 

I would still like some information on your turbo systems testing, as I posted earlier on.

 

If you could please explain some of the racing/testing that is done with your various platforms, especially with the factory ECU controlled vehicles like the R8's and LP series cars, it would help prove some outside claims false.

 

Thanks.

 

BF570

 

The majority of our testing on the Bosch ecu cars has been on road courses and mainly with the V10 and V8 platforms. I have found that the majority of our Lamborgini customers don't spend much time with them at their local road course. Our first V10 R8 TT was a dedicated road course car which saw track use about every other weekend for roughly a year. I have had a couple of my own personal V8 R8 TT cars at numerous road courses such as Miller Motorsports Park and Virginia International Raceway .Throughout our testing with these cars on road courses we have learned a lot that I feel helps keep our products operating reliably, especially in other countries where owners have the potential to run the cars much harder on a regular basis than we do here in the states.

 

I am of the feeling that once your car is approaching the 1500 whp mark, you are heading into race car territory. I'm not saying that it is necessarily classified as a race car because of the amount of power you have on tap but do feel that at some point you have to maintain the car differently and it may become expected to have more frequent component failures.

 

With that in mind, we have spent a lot of time over the past few years developing systems that can be installed and maintained through our dealer network, provide a significant, reliable, power increase over stock and have a reasonable level of expandability should the owner decide that they want more.

 

In the event that we have a customer that wants to build a race car and go racing, such as Peakcompletions 2,200+ whp Ford GT, we are always happy to oblige and have been quite successful with those efforts.

 

With all of that said, it shouldn't be long before we see a frantically composed update from Joe on his thoughts on the green machine. The car is headed to New York as we speak.

Your concern is certainly valid. I have also heard of numerous stock 04 - 08 Gallardos having engines fail as well which is exactly why we can not guarantee an engine that we did not build. To be fair, for every stock V10 R8 or LP560 that suffers this type of failure there are thousands that do not.

 

Have any of your TT customers experienced a stock engine failure with your TT system on their car, Gallardo or R8?

Have any of your TT customers experienced a stock engine failure with your TT system on their car, Gallardo or R8?

 

Yes. And after examining the engine and determining the cause of the issue we still feel confident in the ability of these systems to perform reliably. The number of cars on the road around the world that are running flawlessly with these systems reinforce that confidence. There are always anomalies. Years ago if someone would have mentioned the thought of running 12.5 compression in a naturally aspirated format it would have seemed crazy. I'm not sure I see the point in your question. I suspect that you are trying to illustrate that a car can have an engine failure with a turbo system on a stock engine. You are absolutely correct. Even stock cars, as you have mentioned, can have failures. You had mentioned that you read about a stock V10 R8 that had a connecting rod fail. I hardly think that Audi should feel any less comfortable producing R8's because of this.

Yes. And after examining the engine and determining the cause of the issue we still feel confident in the ability of these systems to perform reliably. The number of cars on the road around the world that are running flawlessly with these systems reinforce that confidence. There are always anomalies. Years ago if someone would have mentioned the thought of running 12.5 compression in a naturally aspirated format it would have seemed crazy. I'm not sure I see the point in your question. I suspect that you are trying to illustrate that a car can have an engine failure with a turbo system on a stock engine. You are absolutely correct. Even stock cars, as you have mentioned, can have failures. You had mentioned that you read about a stock V10 R8 that had a connecting rod fail. I hardly think that Audi should feel any less comfortable producing R8's because of this.

 

 

I'm just doing research is all. Thank you for your answers. How many stock Gallardo/R8 engines have failed with your turbo system?

Nice work and appreciate the openness of your posts! Keep up the great work.

I'm just doing research is all. Thank you for your answers. How many stock Gallardo/R8 engines have failed with your turbo system?

 

Wow. For a guy who owns a stage 1 Race version UGR Superleggera, you sure seem to have an awful lot of interest in Heffner's bolt on system.