American Muscle is creeping up on Exotics

Not in exoticness, curb appeal, panache, etc. That will always be the domain of a Lamborghini, Ferrari, McLaren, Maserati etc. Outside of the Viper or Ford GT, the US of A doesn't make those kind of cars...

 

What I'm talking about is fun to drive factor...the exotics no longer have a stranglehold on this. The new ones I'm talking about...

 

I spoke with a new Hellcat owner recently who owns an Aventador, 458, R8 V10, C6, who really likes the sound and aura of the car. He said it wasn't quite as fast as his Aventador but was special in its own right. "Maybe the auto version is quicker, but it wouldn't be as much fun". He said he would buy the Hellcat *just for the sound* alone.....my kinda guy.

 

He went further and said that the 458 is a great car but for driving pleasure he likes the C6 more....simply because of the manual transmission. A Z/28 was a better car still. And I would extrapolate that a Shelby GT350® better yet based on the sound and Randy Pobst's review of it.

 

When somebody who cross shops the entire enthusiast car spectrum expresses this type of opinion, it is noteworthy to me. It's not totally shocking, but at the same time you rarely ever hear it.

 

Also, I've noticed that many have knocked the Hellcat because it hasn't had the type of domination at the track most were hoping for. To overlook it because it's not a mid 10 second car would be missing the point. I've never heard anyone compliment the sound of the Hellcat, and for a monster muscle car, that's a huge part of the equation. That's part of why there will always be an appeal for the carbureted muscle car beasts of the '60s.

 

Dodge makes two other Challengers that appear far more suited for pure drag racing, and they make quite a bit less power on naturally aspirated blocks.

 

A good portion of LP prefers the paddle shift so they probably wouldn't concur with these thoughts, but for the portion of LP who prefers the stickshift, this is somewhat unsettling news I think.

 

A car like the ThethetheFerrari, P1, 918.....paddleshift is probably better. It's extreme performance, so a different mentality.

 

But for your standard exotics?

 

I think they'll need to bring back the stickshift in some capacity.

 

An Aventador or F12 with a shift gate would be to die for.

Yeah, Hellcat Challenger still has some nice style too. Retains some old school, not too much like a moving brick. Plus good bang for the buck to boot. Kind of why I'm glad I didn't sell my modified Panteras, good strong V8 sound to wake the neighbors, stick shift, plus added benefit of Italian design:

 

Depends whom you are talking to, a true car lover enjoys everything down to a rusty pile of rubbish as long as it has a motor and wheels.

 

Exotics are something else, most are life goals, stepping stones, they have to because there are many of them which are terrible cars.

I would stick with the Corvette Plastic mess-06 that is a balanced, harmonious and powerful sports car. Supercars are another league.

If you love cars you love all of them. I like driving the different cars I own depending on my mood

I personally think exotic European cars have lost their appeal with the fact they seem to be made in larger numbers, seem to be more attainable, so you seem to see lots of douchebags who are probably in debt to their eyeballs to have it, proliferation of the "look at me" culture which attracts the abovementioned douchebags and not to mention how frequently European exotic cars are tackily modified these days (I. E. Mansory, LBW etc)

 

With a loss of exclusivity comes a loss of appeal imo

 

 

With a loss of exclusivity comes a loss of appeal imo

 

I agree with this statement in general, but don't think the Euro Supercars are there yet.

 

Your gut is the check on this... When I walk out of a restaurant in Chicago and see an SV Roadster parked outside, it is an absolute SHOW STOPPER. You just don't see them on the road every day, even in the most expensive parts of the city.

 

Even a regular Aventador or LP Murcielago on the road in the open is still a much more rare-than-not sight for most people in the world.

 

Gallardos might be a small exception to this, but they are still not the Porsche 911s you see everywhere.

I personally think exotic European cars have lost their appeal with the fact they seem to be made in larger numbers, seem to be more attainable, so you seem to see lots of douchebags who are probably in debt to their eyeballs to have it, proliferation of the "look at me" culture which attracts the abovementioned douchebags and not to mention how frequently European exotic cars are tackily modified these days (I. E. Mansory, LBW etc)

 

With a loss of exclusivity comes a loss of appeal imo

 

I don't get the concern with the exclusivity part, if there is something I love why would I care if there are many others out there? I am buying it for myself for my own enjoyment not to show off so I wouldn't care if everyone else drives one.

I don't get the concern with the exclusivity part, if there is something I love why would I care if there are many others out there? I am buying it for myself for my own enjoyment not to show off so I wouldn't care if everyone else drives one.

Economically, the Lamborghini brand depends greatly on rarity, but I gotcha Fortis. On one hand, owning exclusivity does point to our jockeying for position. I totally get what you're saying, that people desire the rare thing so that they might hold over other people's heads. ...control of resources, advertisement of power, prowess, etc.

 

On the other hand, rarity can drive some natural positives. There can be only a few people to have landed on the moon. Our resources and need to accomplish such feats are limited, thereby limiting the number of people who have done it. The point being that we admire those men for being rare among us regardless of why. On some level, we know that they are novel indeed and know that they are at the head of the wave of humanity's progress. Novelty is synonymous with the march of our species into new life and, in much the same way, exotic cars occupy our imaginations because of how novel they are and are therefore at the leading edge of our ability to stab ahead into forward living. We end up seeing them as the tip of the spear of what we're capable of.

 

Intelligent people in particular can be quite attracted to novelty because it's like the flag that shows us where the hole is from far away on a golf course and the rewards that await us. That the flag flaps in the wind is also symbolic of how novelty catches our mind's eye and entertains an active mind because it's something moving and new. Not surprisingly, there are many intelligent people on this forum -- easily drawn to the unique, novel, or rare (and understanding our motivations is often secondary to acting on them).

 

Sure, there are members of the site who might hold their cars over other people's heads because life is a competitive sport, but there can be positive motivations for ownership that are still connected to rarity. I even think that you (Fortis) actually still enjoy the rarity of Lamborghinis, but with motivations that are likely pulling on different strings in your heart and mind.

I don't get the concern with the exclusivity part, if there is something I love why would I care if there are many others out there? I am buying it for myself for my own enjoyment not to show off so I wouldn't care if everyone else drives one.

 

This.

 

I've seen a huge push with people going American muscle instead of M cars , AMGs , etc. Strange for the city because in the past the only people I've met who bought American muscle lived on the rust belt (joking)

 

I always felt that American muscle cars had more soul. I daily drive a mustang GT. First American muscle car I've bought and I love it ! Don't think I'll go any other way from now on. There is also a certain perception you buy with the car. I like the perception you get vs the "imports". You seem to get more compliments as well.

 

 

It seems like it's easier to make a comparison with luxury cars. It's like comparing an S class to a Hyundai Genesis. Close but no cigar.

This.

 

I've seen a huge push with people going American muscle instead of M cars , AMGs , etc. Strange for the city because in the past the only people I've met who bought American muscle lived on the rust belt (joking)

 

I always felt that American muscle cars had more soul. I daily drive a mustang GT. First American muscle car I've bought and I love it ! Don't think I'll go any other way from now on. There is also a certain perception you buy with the car. I like the perception you get vs the "imports". You seem to get more compliments as well.

 

I think American manufacturers are able to provide the manual transmission because they make cars in greater numbers. It's really all about the numbers, and if there was only 1000 Mustangs or Camaros made a year (or whatever the current H or A production is), then they would probably be auto only as well.

 

So nobody is really any "better" than anyone else, it's just that some have a better position than others to take advantage of certain scenarios. It is a bit counterintuitive though that in the modern day, a more purist sports car is being made by Ford than Ferrari, but that's just how things played out.

 

Right now Pagani is the only exotic to my knowledge that is building almost to the customer directly. They build in ultra low numbers, but I guess they charge enough money to make up any losses offering various transmissions.

 

Another item that keeps it all interesting is that in the modern day, these exotics are really well built and very dominant in performance. A "run of the mill" Aventador or F12 hits 170 mph in about 19 seconds, while a Hellcat needs 30. Holy f*** that's fast.

 

An Aventador may not be as involving as a Diablo but the looks and performance are up there.

 

Good time to be an enthusiast.

 

 

I currently have a 2015 Z/28 with 718 whp and a stock 2007 LP640 gear. I love both cars but depending on my mood about 60% of the time I would rather take the z/28 out. It is just so much more fun to drive. The sound of the cam, supercharger, etc is just unique and for people that are car guys the Z/28 is just as rare in AZ at the LP640. I honestly have never seen another Z/28 in town and rarely ever see a Murcielago/LP640. Both amazing cars in their own right but I definitely have the muscle car bug and when I sell a Lambo within 12 months I need to get another one LOL. This is my third camaro (never stock) and my fifth Lambo. The adrenaline addiction continues!

Economically, the Lamborghini brand depends greatly on rarity, but I gotcha Fortis. On one hand, owning exclusivity does point to our jockeying for position. I totally get what you're saying, that people desire the rare thing so that they might hold over other people's heads. ...control of resources, advertisement of power, prowess, etc.

 

On the other hand, rarity can drive some natural positives. There can be only a few people to have landed on the moon. Our resources and need to accomplish such feats are limited, thereby limiting the number of people who have done it. The point being that we admire those men for being rare among us regardless of why. On some level, we know that they are novel indeed and know that they are at the head of the wave of humanity's progress. Novelty is synonymous with the march of our species into new life and, in much the same way, exotic cars occupy our imaginations because of how novel they are and are therefore at the leading edge of our ability to stab ahead into forward living. We end up seeing them as the tip of the spear of what we're capable of.

 

Intelligent people in particular can be quite attracted to novelty because it's like the flag that shows us where the hole is from far away on a golf course and the rewards that await us. That the flag flaps in the wind is also symbolic of how novelty catches our mind's eye and entertains an active mind because it's something moving and new. Not surprisingly, there are many intelligent people on this forum -- easily drawn to the unique, novel, or rare (and understanding our motivations is often secondary to acting on them).

 

Sure, there are members of the site who might hold their cars over other people's heads because life is a competitive sport, but there can be positive motivations for ownership that are still connected to rarity. I even think that you (Fortis) actually still enjoy the rarity of Lamborghinis, but with motivations that are likely pulling on different strings in your heart and mind.

 

I fully agree on the other aspects of rarity but when it comes to cars and other material possessions I almost see it as selfishness, thinking that something has a greater worth to you if you were amongst the few of the chosen ones and just because your neighbour can also get one somehow something which you should purchase for your own enjoyment all of a sudden has less worth/value to you, very interesting, if I didn't buy said item to show off or peacock around why would I care if everyone else has one, I would be glad that I can also have one

 

I've purchased two fairly rare cars, the GT4 and the SV but I wouldn't think twice about getting rid of either of them if I didn't personally enjoy them, we all different I guess and we all buy for different reasons.

 

On a separate note ( I assume you are a pilot) can I pick your brains on few things via PM? TIA

 

 

 

I'll just weigh in again.

 

I am totally open to everyone having their own opinion, and I think perhaps my comment may have been taken in a context i did not intend. It was probably poorly worded and unclear due to typing on my phone at an obscure hour and just being bad at getting my point across.

 

by saying that the loss of exclusivity results in loss of appeal, i actually mean this in the context of what many of you are talking about. I think exclusivity has been lost, not through 'one upmanship' by not being able to laude your possession over other people, but by the fact that so many people purchase these cars to do exactly that.

 

I find cars have more appeal if they are genuinely owned by enthusiasts and are purchased as such. But it seems so often euro exotica is purchased as a status symbol and to pose, etc. This is what has taken away the exclusivity for me. In all honesty I lose my mind more over an Esprit than i do over a Gallardo, not because it's more unattainable, but because it is (despite being significantly cheaper) more 'exclusive or rare. It's owned by pure enthusiasts not by people who like to pose (a generalisation of course, but just trying to get across what's in my head and may be a little unclear LOL).

 

There is a perfect picture to demonstrate this which i unfortunately couldnt find. Remember that guy who's gallardo burnt at a Gas Station and there was a Pshop of him in his sunday best (tracksuit and douchebag attire)? that's what takes away from euro exotica IMO.

Hmm, that might be better exemplified with new cars vs. old cars. New Countach buyers in the 80s were likely buying to pose, which is likely what the average new Lamborghini buyer is doing today too. That's misleading because on the forum we have concentrated interest and probably an above-average level of enthusiasm for the cars themselves so a new Aventador owner on the forum is more of a rarity compared with the average buyer. Hence, why the company doesn't fund manual transmissions, 2WD, etc. Countach buyers in 2010 when they were depreciated below $100k were the enthusiasts.

 

The novelty is bound to wear off if more units of anything are produced. I might actually look forward to picking up an insanely depreciated Gallardo 15 years from now just as a DD because I know 14,000 units will never put it on the same footing as 2,900 units of Diablo. I don't even drive the Diablo to Cars & Coffee anymore because I honestly believe that the car is better enjoyed in passing. A kid that gets the scant glimpse of the car in traffic will be inspired. Not the kid who sees the damn thing every other weekend at C&C. I'm still a believer in rarity even if it's only in the experience of seeing the car in the wild. My glimpse of a triple-white Countach that lasted all of seven seconds as it drove past my house as a kid were all that it took to inspire me for a lifetime.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll just weigh in again.

 

I am totally open to everyone having their own opinion, and I think perhaps my comment may have been taken in a context i did not intend. It was probably poorly worded and unclear due to typing on my phone at an obscure hour and just being bad at getting my point across.

 

by saying that the loss of exclusivity results in loss of appeal, i actually mean this in the context of what many of you are talking about. I think exclusivity has been lost, not through 'one upmanship' by not being able to laude your possession over other people, but by the fact that so many people purchase these cars to do exactly that.

 

I find cars have more appeal if they are genuinely owned by enthusiasts and are purchased as such. But it seems so often euro exotica is purchased as a status symbol and to pose, etc. This is what has taken away the exclusivity for me. In all honesty I lose my mind more over an Esprit than i do over a Gallardo, not because it's more unattainable, but because it is (despite being significantly cheaper) more 'exclusive or rare. It's owned by pure enthusiasts not by people who like to pose (a generalisation of course, but just trying to get across what's in my head and may be a little unclear LOL).

 

There is a perfect picture to demonstrate this which i unfortunately couldnt find. Remember that guy who's gallardo burnt at a Gas Station and there was a Pshop of him in his sunday best (tracksuit and douchebag attire)? that's what takes away from euro exotica IMO.

 

 

I think that where you live distorts your views on exotics and their owners, I am not saying some of these cars aren't owned by posers because that would be incorrect, we can't really say those posers are balling on a budget because that would be incorrect, they might be fully loaded, unless you personally know their financial position it would be hard for you to make a statement on that, posing doesn't necessarily make a car less rare, check Instagram and see how much posing is being done behind the wheel of a Huayra, P1, 918, etc.

 

I will also add this, it's a small world down here, I bet you know or know of the majority of the exotic car owners/drivers, how many of them fit the poser imagine you are describing? I bet not many.

 

The reason you like the Lotus is because it pulls on your heart strings, nothing to do with anything else, I don't give a Lotus a second look, that doesn't make it a less special car to those who love it, I feel the same way about a 90's 3 series BMW, that was my greatest motoring achievement in my teenage years and it will always have a place in my heart, if one would sit next to a SV I would pay an equal amount of attention to it because it will trigger those inner feelings and emotions I have for that car.

 

Anyway, we are weird creatures, we get so attached to inanimate lifeless objects LOL.

Hmm, that might be better exemplified with new cars vs. old cars. New Countach buyers in the 80s were likely buying to pose, which is likely what the average new Lamborghini buyer is doing today too. That's misleading because on the forum we have concentrated interest and probably an above-average level of enthusiasm for the cars themselves so a new Aventador owner on the forum is more of a rarity compared with the average buyer. Hence, why the company doesn't fund manual transmissions, 2WD, etc. Countach buyers in 2010 when they were depreciated below $100k were the enthusiasts.

 

The novelty is bound to wear off if more units of anything are produced. I might actually look forward to picking up an insanely depreciated Gallardo 15 years from now just as a DD because I know 14,000 units will never put it on the same footing as 2,900 units of Diablo. I don't even drive the Diablo to Cars & Coffee anymore because I honestly believe that the car is better enjoyed in passing. A kid that gets the scant glimpse of the car in traffic will be inspired. Not the kid who sees the damn thing every other weekend at C&C. I'm still a believer in rarity even if it's only in the experience of seeing the car in the wild. My glimpse of a triple-white Countach that lasted all of seven seconds as it drove past my house as a kid were all that it took to inspire me for a lifetime.

 

 

I know I am going off topic here but I have to say it, there are a bunch of great guys on LP.

 

SingleSeat you are a true gentleman thank you for your time, as I've mentioned via PM, invaluable info straight from the horse's mouth! It can not get any better than this.

 

Thank you

Hmm, that might be better exemplified with new cars vs. old cars. New Countach buyers in the 80s were likely buying to pose, which is likely what the average new Lamborghini buyer is doing today too. That's misleading because on the forum we have concentrated interest and probably an above-average level of enthusiasm for the cars themselves so a new Aventador owner on the forum is more of a rarity compared with the average buyer. Hence, why the company doesn't fund manual transmissions, 2WD, etc. Countach buyers in 2010 when they were depreciated below $100k were the enthusiasts.

 

The big difference though was in the 1980s, there was no technology available from the manufacturer to make things easier for the enthusiast.

 

The paddle shift was first introduced by Ferrari in the 1989 Grand Prix season, and power steering wasn't sought out as standard gear until the mid 1990s.

 

All wheel drive wasn't even a consideration by the Italians until the mid '90s after Porsche kicked it off with the 959 in the mid '80s.

 

People back then were forced to make due to get by.

 

Now that power steering, paddle shift, all wheel drive, traction control are available there's no turning back....unless you buy Caterhams and Elises.

 

Anyway, we are weird creatures, we get so attached to inanimate lifeless objects LOL.

 

 

Well said.

 

And for some of us, so attached to a group of millionaire athletes and what they can or cannot accomplish on a field together.

 

It's irrational, but at the same time....when everything works out right, it can bring lots of joy.

I think that where you live distorts your views on exotics and their owners, I am not saying some of these cars aren't owned by posers because that would be incorrect, we can't really say those posers are balling on a budget because that would be incorrect, they might be fully loaded, unless you personally know their financial position it would be hard for you to make a statement on that, posing doesn't necessarily make a car less rare, check Instagram and see how much posing is being done behind the wheel of a Huayra, P1, 918, etc.

 

I will also add this, it's a small world down here, I bet you know or know of the majority of the exotic car owners/drivers, how many of them fit the poser imagine you are describing? I bet not many.

 

For the record most guys in our corner of the world are top guys. I actually had the Instagram ballers on a budget in mind. That does seem to be far more prolific on the other side of the pond.

I'm not so convinced that tech was the difference since every era had its automotive highlights. Owning a Countach in the 80s was owning a unicorn, and the ability to show everyone how rarefied your tastes were and how capable your bank account was. Same goes for what owning a Huayra would be like today in most American cities. A new Huayra owner would actually need to go out of their way to not appear to be not posing just because of the level of attention that kind of thing generates. However, I do think that there are more channels today for people to become more enthusiastic about cars with more well developed media in movies, print, internet, video games, and television. Thus, more pressure on manufacturers to satisfy a more refined demand than there was before.

 

However, I TOTALLY CALLED THIS retro muscle car thing in 1995. On my first drive in a Diablo, I was at a stop sign in a neighborhood. At the opposite stop sign was a mid-90's Camaro. Seeing the contrast was shocking between the Diablo and that. The dude in the Camaro was stupefied, picking his jaw off the ground. At that moment, I said that what Detroit needs to do is just give up on what they're doing with sports cars and go retro for awhile. Go back to 1969 and get to the roots of some of their best work. And what did they finally start doing ten years later? Bingo.