Murcielago replacement

Taken from another forum but seemed interesting:-

 

 

 

 

The same source on the F142 posted this on forthcoming Lambo's -

 

"Lambo's Murcielago successor will have 6.0L V-Twelve version of LP560's engine developing 700 bhp. Carbon body panels except roof and doors from aluminium. Gallardo's successor will retain the 5.5L engine uprated to 600 bhp. This time it will have scissor doors as Lambo is moving away from sharing parts with parent audi (marketing reason for Gallardo's normal doors is that scissors reserved for V-Twelve models only, true reason is because Gallardo was to make way for the R8 and scissors = extra cost). New awd and e-gear, Lambo is not going the dual clutch route (I guess it's to preserve the 'jerkiness' tradition? Lambo's supposed to be wild and all)."

 

Let me be the first one to say, BULLSHIT.

hahahah what nonsense

Let me be the first one to say, BULLSHIT.

 

Let me be the first one to say, BULLSHIT.

 

agreed. Somebody just made all that BS up.

I guess that will teach me for reading Ferrari forums.

Actually, I heard the LP640 was the last go-around for Lambo's current V12. I was told it was going to be replaced by an Audi based mill. The tooling for Audi blocks is modular, and that's how they created the V10 for the Gallardo. I was told they were going to add two more cylinders to that block to create the new V12. Unfortunately, I cannot recall who told me this but I do hang out at the local Lambo dealership from time to time. In fact, I was there today, but I forgot to ask about a Murcielago replacement. Of course you can't believe everything you hear.

It only makes sense for them to use the modular Audi motor, after all the V10 is the audi V8 with two more cylinders. Sucks, but it seems highly probable.

It only makes sense for them to use the modular Audi motor, after all the V10 is the audi V8 with two more cylinders. Sucks, but it seems highly probable.

 

I remember where I heard about the new engine. It was referenced in EVO magazine's review of the LP640. However, it does make sense to me too. An Audi derived modular V12 with direct fuel injection and lighter weight. I remember watching the RIDES episode in which they covered the introduction of the Murcielago roadster. It was stated the combined weight of the Murcielago's engine and tranmission was over 900lbs. V12s are definitely heavy. However, I could not imagine Lamborghini not having a V12 car in their line up.

its also been said that the LP640's engine has the ability to produce 750 hp, but the frame cant handle it.

 

 

Im most interested to know where the new frame is coming from. Audi? H Pagani?

 

carbon body panels except door and roof from aluminum doesnt sound unrealistic. Murcielago had that except roof and doors were steel.

 

 

anything is possible, but the real question is, WHEN is it coming?

Much of it sounds fishy to me. The entry-level Lambo (Jalpa, Silhoutte, etc.) has never had scissor doors, and I'm quite sure they'll continue to reserve them for the V12 model only.

 

An all-new V12 I can see; the old one is just too heavy. BUT, making it smaller in capacity, from 6.5 liters to 6.0? I don't see that as very likely.

 

Also, one would assume that the new model will be much lighter than the Murcie. But, if they bring the G up to 600 bhp, then at those levels I don't know if another 100 bhp is enough of a difference to separate the two. (And the current LP640, ESPECIALLY given its weight, really doesn't have enough of a power advantage to separate itself significantly from the G LP560).

 

its also been said that the LP640's engine has the ability to produce 750 hp, but the frame cant handle it.

Im most interested to know where the new frame is coming from. Audi? H Pagani?

 

carbon body panels except door and roof from aluminum doesnt sound unrealistic. Murcielago had that except roof and doors were steel.

anything is possible, but the real question is, WHEN is it coming?

 

i see the venerable v12 continuing on... There is still alot of power left in it to not need to invest millions on a new engine... Instead, I think composite chassis would be the focal point of the replacement to reduce weight.

700 plus hp with 1450kgs would be perfect

i see the venerable v12 continuing on... There is still alot of power left in it to not need to invest millions on a new engine... Instead, I think composite chassis would be the focal point of the replacement to reduce weight.

 

 

not sure on the accuracy of these numbers:

 

http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThrea...0&tID=99943

 

but even if they were in the ballpark of the actual figures, it would put the lambo V12 about 100-150 lbs more than say, the F50 or Enzo V12s (assuming the Diablo GT engine is roughly close to the Murcielago engine in weight...they are basically the same engine, right?)

If you're in any doubt as to the reliability of this source...

Gallardo's successor will retain the 5.5L engine

The current Lamborghini V10 is 5.2 litres.

Nope, the LP560's is 5.5.

 

If you're in any doubt as to the reliability of this source...

 

The current Lamborghini V10 is 5.2 litres.

 

no its not.

I thought it was a 5.6, silly me.

Nope, the LP560's is 5.5.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstD...LP560-4/232738/ <-bottom of the page.

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarrevi...rdo_lp5604.html <-on the right hand side, below the pictures.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_li...ecs+page-2.html

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search...LP560-4-driven/ <-third paragraph.

There's also Lamborghini's website if you need any more proof, but it's flash generated so I can't provide a direct link. I don't know where the hell you guys are getting 5.5 from.

I think this about sums it up:

http://www.lambocars.com/gal/lp560pr.php

 

"The powerful heart of the Gallardo LP560-4 is the new 5.2 litre V10 engine with an output of 560 PS (412 kW) at 8000 rpm. The increase of 40 PS compared with that of the previous Gallardo, and the approximate 20 kilogram reduction in weight, improves the power weight ratio to 2.5 kilograms per PS (hp) and thus enhances performance."

 

"Extreme power in every situation

The engine of the Gallardo LP560-4 is a completely new development. All that remains of the original V10 is the number of cylinders which, in this performance category, create a perfect and unique synthesis of torque, force of movement, sporty nimbleness, compact size and low weight.

The engine has a 5204 cm3 volumetric displacement which, with 8.000 rpm creates the extreme 560 PS (412 kW)."

 

Silly me, all the while I thought it was a 5.6 shame on me.

the engine weight could always be lowered... the intake manifold section could be using carbon. the valve covers in carbon, iconel headers etc... perhaps not by much but... the current v-12 I think is going to continue for a while given that it has been constantly updated... and perhaps there is a way to make that old v-12 direct injected? Bottom line is that the 12 has still plenty of life yet...

I think the Murci replacment is due after 2009, this is the link I have (Dated 12th July 2006) to the application for an exemption it has in the US until 2009, unless there is a recent amendment to this?

 

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01...06/E6-10892.htm

 

 

IV. Lamborghini

 

Background. Lamborghini is an Italian corporation formed in 1963 to

produce high-performance sports cars. This application concerns the

Lamborghini Murcielago which was developed in the mid 1990s and is now

scheduled to continue in production until 2009. Originally, Lamborghini

planned to begin selling the Murcielago in 1999 and to end production

before September 2006. Because of financial hardship and a change in

corporate ownership, the

 

[[Page 39388]]

 

petitioner did not begin sales of Murcielago until the very end of

2001, and is now forced to extend the product cycle of this vehicle.

Lamborghini has experienced financial problems for several years.

Over the last 4 years (2001-2004), the company lost more than 180

million dollars. Lamborghini claims this economic hardship precluded

the timely development of a new vehicle that could comply with advanced

air bag requirements. With respect to the Murcielago, Lamborghini also

has been unable to overcome a number of engineering problems associated

with installing advanced air bags in the current vehicle configuration.

If the exemption is not granted, the Murcielago model cannot be sold in

the U.S. during the period 2006-2009, which petitioner stated could

further delay the introduction of a fully compliant vehicle.

Lamborghini thus asks for a temporary exemption from the advanced air

bag requirements for the Murcielago until it is replaced by a brand new

vehicle in 2009.

Eligibility. Lamborghini's total motor vehicle production in the

most recent year of production was less than 10,000 vehicles. However,

in 1998, Lamborghini was acquired by Audi, a large motor vehicle

manufacturer. In discussing its eligibility for hardship relief,

Lamborghini asserts that its relationship with Audi is ``arm's-

length.'' Lamborghini operates independently, and services provided by

Audi or Audi affiliates are paid for by Lamborghini.

The agency examined the relationship between Lamborghini and Audi.

We tentatively conclude that Lamborghini is eligible to apply for a

temporary exemption based on the following factors. First, there is no

similarity of design between the cars produced by Lamborghini and cars

produced by Audi. Second, Lamborghini has indicated that it has paid

for all services or assistance provided by Audi. Third, cars are

imported and sold through separate distribution channels independent of

the Audi dealer network. We note that our conclusions as to eligibility

are tentative and the agency has not made a final determination as to

whether Lamborghini is eligible to obtain an exemption.

Requested exemptions. Lamborghini states that it intends to certify

the Murcielago as complying with the rigid barrier belted test

requirement using the 50th percentile adult male test dummy set forth

in S14.5.1 of FMVSS No. 208. The petitioner states that it previously

determined the Murcielago's compliance with rigid barrier unbelted test

requirements using the 50th percentile adult male test dummy through

the S13 sled test using a generic pulse rather than a full vehicle

test. Lamborghini states that it, therefore, cannot at present say with

certainty that the Murcielago will comply with the unbelted test

requirement under S14.5.2, which is a 25 mph rigid barrier test.

As for the Murcielago's compliance with the other advanced air bag

requirements, Lamborghini states that it does not know whether the

Murcielago will be compliant because to date it has not had the

financial ability to conduct the necessary testing.

As such, Lamborghini is requesting an exemption for the Murcielago

from the rigid barrier unbelted test requirement with the 50th

percentile adult male test dummy (S14.5.2), the rigid barrier test

requirement using the 5th percentile adult female test dummy (belted

and unbelted, S15), the offset deformable barrier test requirement

using the 5th percentile adult female test dummy (S17), the

requirements to provide protection for infants and children (S19, S21,

and S23) and the requirement using an out-of-position 5th percentile

adult female test dummy at the driver position (S25).

Economic Hardship. Lamborghini states that over the last 4 years

(2001-2004), it lost over $180 million with the yearly losses averaging

~ $47 million. Lamborghini asserts that, notwithstanding engineering

impracticability described below, it could not afford to develop an

advanced air bag system for the Murcielago and engineer its replacement

by 2009. If the exemption is denied and U.S. sales of the Murcielago

end on September 1, 2006, Lamborghini projects a loss of $12.7 million

between September of 2006 and September of 2009.

Lamborghini estimates the total cost of an advanced air bag program

to be about $24 million. Lamborghini states that the development of an

advanced air bag system for the Murcielago's successor can be funded

through the Murcielago's continued U.S. sales.

Lamborghini initially did not foresee that the Murcielago would

still be in production when advanced air bags became mandatory. It was

designed in the mid-1990s and was intended to be launched in 1999, with

production ending in 2006. Due to financial hardship and changes in

ownership, the Murcielago was not sold until late in 2001. Further

financial hardship compounded by shifts in the exchange rate between

the U.S. dollar and the Euro and the need to amortize costs of

developing the Murcielago necessitate continued production of that

vehicle until 2009.

Good faith efforts to comply. Once the petitioner realized that the

Murcielago would have to continue beyond September 2006, Lamborghini

undertook to development an advanced air bag system. As early as 2001,

Lamborghini began contacting air bag manufacturers in an effort to

develop a compliant advanced air bag system. It pursued this matter

with at least four suppliers. However, none provided a workable

solution. The efforts continued until the summer of 2005, at which

point Lamborghini concluded that technical constraints prevented

development of advanced air bags for the Murcielago. Specifics of the

technical difficulties are described in the petition.

Lamborghini argues that an exemption would be in the public

interest. The petitioner argues that the number of vehicles affected by

an exemption would be very small and will therefore have, at most, a

negligible impact on the overall safety of U.S. highways. Further, the

Murcielago is likely to be operated only on a limited basis.

Lamborghini also argues that granting an exemption will assure proper

parts and service are available in the U.S. to support existing owners

of Lamborghini automobiles. Finally, it argues that the Murcielago

features other voluntarily provided safety features including a

passenger air bag ``on-off switch,'' ABS, Traction Control System, and

4-wheel drive.

 

 

 

So it appears a new model may appear in 2010. It would be cool if they managed to upgrade the current V12 (i.e. direct injection). However, I would'nt be surprised to see a new engine and transmission combination. According to Lamborghini, the engine of the LP560 is almost a completely new design. I would'nt be surprised if they used the same modular molds to create a new V12. Especially since they have already made to capitol investment.

 

Many have said the L640 will be the last of the "true" Lamborghini's because of its engine and styling. Reducing the size and weight (especially weight) of its replacement will not only help performance, but will reduce its carbon foot print and improve gas mileage.

 

I know. I know. We're talking about Lamborghini, but the world is changing. The advantages of direct fuel injection are apparent with the LP560 in terms of performance and fuel economy (20 mpg highway). Don't get me wrong. The next big Lambo needs to remain wild and woolly...and a V12. I believe the Murcielago replacement should retain that edgy persona, but give the impression Lambo cares about the environment...a little.

What I've heard from an interview with Winkelmann to a Dutch magazine is that the current V12 has a big potential and that the M replacement is definitely not coming in 2009. I dont't have the link unfortunately.

What I've heard from an interview with Winkelmann to a Dutch magazine is that the current V12 has a big potential and that the M replacement is definitely not coming in 2009. I dont't have the link unfortunately.

it seems all of his interviews are filled with complete BS.