UGR Bolt-on TT system

Seriously, all of this "price hiding" is getting ridiculous. If they would just come out and say what it costs, and how long the warranty lasts (if any), then a ton of people including myself would be much more likely to pull the trigger on a turbo package. But if tuners won't come clean with what they are selling, how can we know what is available to buy without getting the "how much do you want to spend?" rhetoric. Jesus, how long do some of these web sites need to put up some info on their turbo systems (DLM?????). I'm sick of seeing "coming soon" messages or pages that are too light on description for a $50-70k product.

 

How can you fix a price on something so custom, flexible and wide open to changes? What turbo's would you like? What boost controller would you like? AEM, MoTec, or other? How about the fuel system? Plan on wanting more power later down the road?

 

It's hardly like a boxed Paxton kit. Each car will probably cost a little different, even with similar builds based on customer choices made and the parts availability. It's not even close to the conspiracy you allude to.

 

I've sent UGR a PM regarding a similar build. If you want pricing, I suggest you do the same.

 

 

I assume this is directed at UGR directly and not me (and I've already addressed these issues above to the extent I feel comfortable doing so), but as I said pricing was not a factor to me (not because I didn't care how much it cost but because they were all in the same ballpark). I seriously doubt any of the 3 tuners are going to want to jump in here and post details about pricing and warranties, but as I also said above, I think the direct answer to no. 2 will be "no" from all 3 (although as stated they will do whatever they can to help their customer). And I did talk to all 3 of them, but won't purport to speak for them. Do you really think it's reasonable to expect a tuner to guarantee a stock engine against failure with the power these systems are capable of making, and without any way to prevent the customer from beating the car like a rented mule? If I were a tuner I would handle it exactly the way they say they will.

 

Correct, this is directed to the tuner themselves, who will no doubt shortly enter this thread and continue all the wonderfully joyous backslapping and self-congratulation per the norm in these threads without really disclosing any details.

 

Do you really think it's reasonable to expect a tuner to guarantee a stock engine against failure with the power these systems are capable of making, and without any way to prevent the customer from beating the car like a rented mule?

 

Not at all. But if one of them did, it's a massive competitive advantage for that vendor, along with a true sales point for many of our owners who are on the fence. Just trying to get as many details as I can.

 

Unlike some of the other members who are in the Heffner or DLM camps, I have no bone to pick with UGR, aside from Kevin's lack of maturity when the shit flies online compared to Doug or Jason. As far as his company and work go it seems they're very solid.

Im pretty sure that most of the tuners will be happier to build you a TT system with strengthened internals rather than a bolt on package.

 

Those that care about having their product last for the long haul, no doubt!

 

 

As far as his company(UGR) and work go it seems they're very solid.

 

Yep they seem solid enuff, except on those pesky race days!

 

ohhh shit! i smell 17 pages coming up

ohhh shit! i smell 17 pages coming up

 

No way, but I would like to start a discussion about bolt on vs built. First of all, long term reliability should be a major concern. Also, re saleability should be a concern to any owners that choose this route. You blow an engine, and you are not looking at a rice and beans repair bill, you are looking at 35 to 50k. When it comes time to sell, it may be hard to find a buyer, particularly if a few blow up, which will likely happen if people run with 900rwhp on stock internals.

Thanks for the comments guys, and here are some more details. The 651 rwhp dyno was with pump gas at 4 psi. The 814 rwhp and 950 rwhp runs were with race gas at 8 and 10 psi, respectively, as shown on the dyno sheet. The slurpee cooler might have been full too--I'd have to check with Kevin as I didn't think to ask (that's for you Allan ). The 8 psi setting will likely be my "kill" mode on race gas, as I don't want to push the stock motor too hard, and over 800 rwhp seems like a lot to me, even on race gas. For just driving around, I'll probably leave it at 4 psi. In any event, I think it's safe to say the stock motors in these cars respond dramatically to boost!

 

I plan to go pick up the car this weekend, and my overall experience with UGR has been superb. By way of background, I had never done any

business with UGR before this project, although I've had numerous high performance cars, including a couple of FI Vipers (hence my username, which I found easier to leave the same from forum to forum), a Plastic mess-06, several AMG Mercs, etc. I ran Jason Heffner's supercharger system on my GTS for a while years ago, and later when I decided to upgrade to twins, I had Jason do the install. My experience with Jason was great, and I have talked to him several times since I bought the G, so I knew sending my car to him was a good option. I had also talked with Doug Levin a few times about my Vipers, and had bought a few Viper-related parts from Doug, so I knew Doug was a great guy to deal with as well. I had actually talked to UGR about doing the twins on my Viper before going with Jason, but at that point UGR was new to the Viper scene, which is the main reason I went with Jason. Now that several years have gone by, and several people I know have had their cars done by UGR, Heffner and UGR are pretty much Coke and Pepsi in my mind, which made the UGR option much easier. DLM may be more like RC Cola--a great product with a devoted group of followers, but one that flies a little below the radar compared to the other two. So I'm not here to throw rocks toward any other tuner, and hopefully I won't be receiving any either (from their customers that is--I KNOW neither Jason nor Doug would do so).

 

In any event, UGR has been great to deal with, extremely professional, and they have done everything they said they would, when they said they would. They did the build in just over 2 weeks, which was a big reason I went with the bolt-on setup for now, because I didn't want the car down the rest of the summer. I'm not sure how they pulled that off given that the shop is bursting at the seams with Lambos, Vipers, etc., but they delivered. Communication has been constant, and I have to say when I got the pics below of the build, it was really hard to believe that was my car! So now I can't wait to get some seat time and feel that turbo rush firsthand! I'll update things once I get the car back, but bear in mind roll-ons are much harder to set up in the East TN mountains than in some other places, so we will probably have to continue to rely on Fadi the Roll-On King for our video entertainment! Oh and I PM'd Fadi last night and told him I think he needs to adjust his expectations for the dyno Saturday (upward), and he may not want to call 8 psi his "pump gas" setting either--I'm not sure pump gas and double stock hp are a good match! These high compression engines are crazy with a little boost--hopefully we can keep them in one piece!

 

 

 

 

Looks Great! Have fun with the car.

No way, but I would like to start a discussion about bolt on vs built. First of all, long term reliability should be a major concern. Also, re saleability should be a concern to any owners that choose this route. You blow an engine, and you are not looking at a rice and beans repair bill, you are looking at 35 to 50k. When it comes time to sell, it may be hard to find a buyer, particularly if a few blow up, which will likely happen if people run with 900rwhp on stock internals.

I really don't want this thread to turn into another mindless juvenile back and forth as the board has had way too many of those already IMO, but just to reiterate, all 3 of the major tuners offered to put a bolt-on system on my car, and as far as I could tell all 3 seemed quite "happy" to do it. Now it may be that they'd all 3 prefer to do built engine setups, both for reliability and profit issues--I can't answer that. And I completely agree that building the engine is the safer way to go, and IMO probably the only way to go if you must make big hp on pump gas. But these bolt-on setups are getting very interesting. We now know of three out there (mine, Fadi's, and the yellow DLM car) that are making big power--it will be interesting to see how they fare as the miles accumulate. My original plan was to probably build the engine over the winter while I wasn't driving the car to speak of anyway, but then again I didn't expect the bolt-on system to make anywhere near this much power either. We'll see.

its definitly going to be interesting to see how reliable these kits are.

Looks Great! Have fun with the car.

 

Thanks Grant--hope to see you sometime soon!

I really don't want this thread to turn into another mindless juvenile back and forth as the board has had way too many of those already IMO, but just to reiterate, all 3 of the major tuners offered to put a bolt-on system on my car, and as far as I could tell all 3 seemed quite "happy" to do it. Now it may be that they'd all 3 prefer to do built engine setups, both for reliability and profit issues--I can't answer that. And I completely agree that building the engine is the safer way to go, and IMO probably the only way to go if you must make big hp on pump gas. But these bolt-on setups are getting very interesting. We now know of three out there (mine, Fadi's, and the yellow DLM car) that are making big power--it will be interesting to see how they fare as the miles accumulate. My original plan was to probably build the engine over the winter while I wasn't driving the car to speak of anyway, but then again I didn't expect the bolt-on system to make anywhere near this much power either. We'll see.

 

Nope, I didn't think I was posing mindless questions, just stating that 900rwhp on stock internals is pushing the envelope, and wondering how that would effect reliability and resale values. Heffner told me his kit was only gonna pump out an extra 150/200 hp.

 

Stick to your original plan, makes a lot of sense to me.

No way, but I would like to start a discussion about bolt on vs built. First of all, long term reliability should be a major concern. Also, re saleability should be a concern to any owners that choose this route. You blow an engine, and you are not looking at a rice and beans repair bill, you are looking at 35 to 50k. When it comes time to sell, it may be hard to find a buyer, particularly if a few blow up, which will likely happen if people run with 900rwhp on stock internals.

 

That's an entirely reasonable proposal for discussion. I'm not sure there will be any good evidence one way or the other though until the bolt-ons get some more miles on them and we see how reliable they appear to be. And there are always variables involved--giving a reckless customer a bolt-on car with a boost controller can be a recipe for problems. Personally, as I said before, I don't plan to run more than 4 psi with pump gas, or 8 psi with race gas. But I also understand that there are risks involved even at those levels.

I really don't want this thread to turn into another mindless juvenile back and forth as the board has had way too many of those already IMO, but just to reiterate, all 3 of the major tuners offered to put a bolt-on system on my car, and as far as I could tell all 3 seemed quite "happy" to do it. Now it may be that they'd all 3 prefer to do built engine setups, both for reliability and profit issues--I can't answer that. And I completely agree that building the engine is the safer way to go, and IMO probably the only way to go if you must make big hp on pump gas. But these bolt-on setups are getting very interesting. We now know of three out there (mine, Fadi's, and the yellow DLM car) that are making big power--it will be interesting to see how they fare as the miles accumulate. My original plan was to probably build the engine over the winter while I wasn't driving the car to speak of anyway, but then again I didn't expect the bolt-on system to make anywhere near this much power either. We'll see.

 

its definitly going to be interesting to see how reliable these kits are.

 

 

The yellow DLM car has been running around for TWO years (not one year like I had initialy thought), and that car has been perfect for the exception of a clutch change. Now Ronnie and I both went the bolt on route and I am sure there will be many to come. Please lay all negative assumptions to rest and let us all wait and see what happens with our cars.

 

Enjoy her in the best of health, Ronnie..

 

 

Nope, I didn't think I was posing mindless questions, just stating that 900rwhp on stock internals is pushing the envelope, and wondering how that would effect reliability and resale values. Heffner told me his kit was only gonna pump out an extra 150/200 hp.

 

Stick to your original plan, makes a lot of sense to me.

 

I don't disagree with you at all. Jason told me essentially the same thing, as did Kevin, but they were talking about pump gas. So maybe one key issue is whether the engine is significantly more at risk with race gas at say 8 psi than pump gas at 4 psi? I'd love to know the answer to that question. Clearly the higher octane helps reduce the risk, but how do the higher cylinder pressures and other variables factor in, and at what point does the risk of engine failure go up significantly? I'm counting on Fadi to answer some of these questions as he's good for 3 races a night.

Congrats on the build and numbers Ronnie! Your car is beautiful!

 

I think it is a bit disrespectful to hound an individual about what they paid for anything, be it a car, watch, clothes, house, etc unless they are someone you know personally (i.e. not on a public forum).

 

I know Kevin is taking his family for a much needed vacation, so he may not even be able to post pricing info for a few days. However I think most the tuners have entry prices posted on their websites, and it would be a safe bet to assume that a bolt on turbo kit would probably fit into "entry" category. Again, I don't speak for any of the builders nor do I have pricing info. Just me drawing my own conclusion based on simple logic. Perhaps the websites are out of date. I bet if you call UGR, Heffner, DLM they would all be happy to provide you pricing based upon what YOU want to build.

 

John, thanks a million for your work on the car--I do feel good knowing you were involved in the wiring and tuning process!

 

FYI to the rest of the board, John tuned the AEM with my Heffner Paxton setup on my GTS years ago, which at that time was one of the first Viper AEM's to be installed and tuned. He even put in some custom knock sensors (GTS's did not have them from the factory).

I don't disagree with you at all. Jason told me essentially the same thing, as did Kevin, but they were talking about pump gas. So maybe one key issue is whether the engine is significantly more at risk with race gas at say 8 psi than pump gas at 4 psi? I'd love to know the answer to that question. Clearly the higher octane helps reduce the risk, but how do the higher cylinder pressures and other variables factor in, and at what point does the risk of engine failure go up significantly? I'm counting on Fadi to answer some of these questions as he's good for 3 races a night.

 

Lets face it, even with a built engine the risk of catastrophic failure increases by a large factor. So, say your odds of blowing your built engine are 100:1, would it be safe to assume that your odds increase by a factor of two(50:1) with a bolt on? Or is it a factor of three, or four or more?

Lets face it, even with a built engine the risk of catastrophic failure increases by a large factor. So, say your odds of blowing your built engine are 100:1, would it be safe to assume that your odds increase by a factor of two(50:1) with a bolt on? Or is it a factor of three, or four or more?

 

See that's the kind of info that would be awesome to have, but is probably impossible to derive, at least with that degree of precision. Aside from important variables associated with the individual car (did the factory get all those rod bolts good and tight, etc.) and the build (e.g., the tune), you have maybe the most important variable in how an individual owner drives the car. I'm not someone who beats on their car that much, but I'd say there is a good chance I'll stick to my original plan and build the engine over the winter even assuming it runs like a Swiss watch until then, just as an insurance policy, but we'll see.

Lets face it, even with a built engine the risk of catastrophic failure increases by a large factor. So, say your odds of blowing your built engine are 100:1, would it be safe to assume that your odds increase by a factor of two(50:1) with a bolt on? Or is it a factor of three, or four or more?

 

This is a question that can't be answered. WAY too many variables involved, imo (tuning, build quality, driving style, etc.)

 

 

See that's the kind of info that would be awesome to have, but is probably impossible to derive, at least with that degree of precision. Aside from important variables associated with the individual car (did the factory get all those rod bolts good and tight, etc.) and the build (e.g., the tune), you have maybe the most important variable in how an individual owner drives the car. I'm not someone who beats on their car that much, but I'd say there is a good chance I'll stick to my original plan and build the engine over the winter even assuming it runs like a Swiss watch until then, just as an insurance policy, but we'll see.

 

Look at my post above. Great minds must think alike..

Look at my post above. Great minds must think alike..

 

I guess the question is, are we both sane, or both insane?

I'm actually more interested in the Coke vs. Pepsi debate. I prefer Coke.

 

Seriously, the thought of anything over 6 psi on stock compression (and high revs) scares the crap out of me.

No way, but I would like to start a discussion about bolt on vs built. First of all, long term reliability should be a major concern. Also, re saleability should be a concern to any owners that choose this route. You blow an engine, and you are not looking at a rice and beans repair bill, you are looking at 35 to 50k. When it comes time to sell, it may be hard to find a buyer, particularly if a few blow up, which will likely happen if people run with 900rwhp on stock internals.

 

 

First off congrats to Ronnie on his new kit! It looks great, and I hope you enjoy it for years to come.

 

With regards to the resale piece, don't you think there is a benefit to a bolt on in that sense as you can technically pull the kit off, sell the car in stock form AND

sell the kit to recoup some of your investment as opposed to selling the car at or below retail for those gallardos with the full build? This is in no way a shot at those with full builds from any tuner, but more of an inquiry to those who know more about this than I do.

See that's the kind of info that would be awesome to have, but is probably impossible to derive, at least with that degree of precision. Aside from important variables associated with the individual car (did the factory get all those rod bolts good and tight, etc.) and the build (e.g., the tune), you have maybe the most important variable in how an individual owner drives the car. I'm not someone who beats on their car that much, but I'd say there is a good chance I'll stick to my original plan and build the engine over the winter even assuming it runs like a Swiss watch until then, just as an insurance policy, but we'll see.

 

Well, we know the factory builds in tolerances, over designs( by a factor of two or so) to cover many of the variables. We also know that tuners bank on the engineering design tolerances to handle the extra power. At 900rwhp(2X stock) all the chips on the table, which means there can be no variables when it comes to driving style, maintenance, fuel quality, oil pressure, etc. Everything has to be perfect or engine goes boom, no?

 

I would say back off on boost a tad, 750 rwhp is tons of fun, you are playing with fire.

Again, Bernard, we can argue till days end, and there will never be a clear answer because all that has been talked about now is assumptions. If anything, what IS CLEAR, is that there has been a bolt on TT kit car running around for TWO YEARS now and it has been perfect. That is the ONLY fact that we know and can attest to regarding a bolt on TT kit.

 

I say we just congratulate Ronnie on his purchase for now and leave all negativity out..

First off congrats to Ronnie on his new kit! It looks great, and I hope you enjoy it for years to come.

 

With regards to the resale piece, don't you think there is a benefit to a bolt on in that sense as you can technically pull the kit off, sell the car in stock form AND

sell the kit to recoup some of your investment as opposed to selling the car at or below retail for those gallardos with the full build?

 

Mike, you could but that would be a very UNETHICAL thing to do, if I take your meaning to be NOT to to inform the buyer of the TT kit.