Prototype Countach 5000S

Not sure how this would help, but photos of the set are credited to Ken Sullivan in the Consumer Guide Auto Series Lamborghini Countach Ultimate Supercar, October 1986. This is just a quick scan from my copy of the book.

 

Note the right rear and missing lid.

 

 

Very helpful indeed! That would explain why there is no rear wing in that side picture! The darn lid was off. Curious why a spare tire though on the right rear, but no big deal.

 

Thanks!

Ah, good eye. I have it in a letter that Trefor said he sold it off to someone. Not sure just yet on the exact dates it was in Italy and Europe. I don't want to comment on that yet, until I know for certain if it was a collector/owner or some registration loophole, etc, etc...

 

Quite possible it went through an auction around 2002. I know it did actually as I have a letter where Trefor Thomas remarked on its significance after the auction. Nelson Lamborghini had it in their possession and sold it to the collector that had it before me.

 

On another note.... Found some new first hand information from a friend of mine that had a hand in all this US exotic stuff in the early 80's first hand. Whoa nelly! Seems like the world of Lamborghini in the 80's was a flat out war. The good, the bad, the innocent, the unscrupulous, underhanded deals, shady doings, amazing brains...

 

I feel like I am doing a BIG report. I just want my findings to be as accurate as possible. I have some information that will piss some people off and I need to be true in my reporting of the history and checking of facts.

 

Since you are a nice guy and a LeMans racer I gather from your post, and I have a personal affinity with Le Mans from my childhood , I will give you the Kruse auction of 2002 that I have if it is any help in your research: Kruse auction SCM # 27752 on May 2002.

May be they still have info that could be worthwhile but that is a long time ago.

 

Thanks for the tip CountachQV. Yup, that was it.

 

I just received a couple Lamborghini books and my car is pictured in them. What is cool is that there are pictures of when it was first built in its original Euro trim and then afterwards. The car definitely had the wing originally as can bee seen in the early pics. It is funny that the picture after the injection and new trim was with out the deck lid (and obviously wing) and made me think the wing was added later..... Glad I got to see the earlier shots to know the wing was on it originally.

 

Oddly enough I like this car better with the rear bumper. The silver looks good without the color of the Euro tail and looks super 80's techy.... Cool...

 

More to come.

 

Casey

Mine has also a flat plenum.. I wonder if that means it is another prototype?

 

Kidzvillage,

 

I know what the deal is with you having the same plenum as my prototype car. I've been doing a lot of research of the history of these FI cars.... With out getting into everything JUST yet...., your car was built after the fact (not by the factory or the guys at Rarwalla's shop) using the extra plenums that were cast when they made my car. It costs almost nothing more to make a few more rather than one, so extras are always a bright idea.... After Chrysler bought Lamborghini, Trefor Thomas and Jas Rarwalla rather got screwed regarding importing Lambos into the country by Chrysler. Their Lambo business was shot in he mid-80's and they sold all their spare parts out to Bill Young who had GT Car Parts. From the first hand account, it would seem that your car was built later using the plenums back from my car's prototype project. By whom, I do not know. I was told there were 3-5 extras made. Any thoughts?

 

As a very small summary, with MUCH more to come: My car was the first FI Lamborghini. It was commissioned by the factory to Rarewalla and Trefor Thomas. The car was used to (honestly) pass all emission tests in the US and for tests in Europe. The bumpers were done in the States and then Lambo factory did some final style tweaking to it. The factory DID build 5 litre, 2 valve injected Countachs modeled exactly after this one, with very very minor differences.

 

The silver car is indeed the first official Lamborghini factory (with obvious help from the US and by help I mean they built it for them) Fuel Injected car that passed all the tests and was the model for the cars to come from the factory. Not sure on the exact number yet. I have heard different accounts that range from mid-30's to 50's. Will report on that later. Sadley/Amazingliy, there was a BIG push from some of the bright minds to do Electronic FI rather than Bosch CIS mechanical. That would have been an even bigger leap forward, but for numerous reasons (not just engineering) they did not. I have also learned that while we know there is MUCH genius in Lamborghini engines, there were some aspects that where still in the "dark ages" Things like ring tension, no valve seals, etc. More to come on that though.....

 

I have been told that there were in fact FI systems built behind the Lamborghini factory's and the Rarwalla guy's backs here in the States. Although the number of those is quite low. It was said that there were potentially 3 shops that did that, but likely that each one only did maybe 1-4 cars. I was also told that they are easy to spot as the plenums are typically hand fabricated and there is much welding among not being very good in practice. Kidsvillage's car, while was likely built after the fact and not by Lambo, obviously was done using parts from the prototype car project and is pretty cool for that reason and I feel is more desirable than any of the non Lambo FI cars and at least more interesting than the production ones after the fact. Possibly faster too. Would love to compare notes with you to learn the history on how your car came to be. Unique indeed.

 

SO much more to come.....

I logged in today and got SCHOOLED again... I love this stuff. Thanks Casey. The plot thickens... Can't wait to hear the next update.

I logged in today and got SCHOOLED again... I love this stuff. Thanks Casey. The plot thickens... Can't wait to hear the next update.

This is a really good thread. It is really great when people who have milestone car talk about them instead of hidding them in their air conditioning garage for 40 years. The milestone cars are telling the lamborghini evolution more than any other cars. I am learning great stuff today that so far no one had explained.

There are also some LP5000s built in Switzerland by Ruf which were exported to US (f.e. LA12663) and also CLA12518 which was originally carbed and got converted to FI using factory pieces.

By RUF? Don't you mean Koenig? Know they did some cars for both the US and euro market.

KoenigTT.bmp

KoenigTT2.bmp

Nevermind Patrick because he has had his head in various slantnose/modified porsche for sometime :):):):)

Nevermind Patrick because he has had his head in various slantnose/modified porsche for sometime :):):):)

 

As I was reading (So much cool info) I remember seeing this website of a Company that performs conversions for the Countach

Back to Webers. Just as a mental exercise, there is the option to convert them, as I think Evans has some kits as well, (I think he said they cost $30K). I was seriously considering... Has anybody heard of them? This is their website:

 

http://www.racetep.com/Countach.html

 

As I was reading (So much cool info) I remember seeing this website of a Company that performs conversions for the Countach

Back to Webers. Just as a mental exercise, there is the option to convert them, as I think Evans has some kits as well, (I think he said they cost $30K). I was seriously considering... Has anybody heard of them? This is their website:

 

http://www.racetep.com/Countach.html

Thats the Countach that was featured on Adam Corrolla.

Hi guys,

 

Converting a Countach to webbers is really not difficult. The most difficult part is simply sourcing or fabricating the manifolds....

 

However, what people don't understand is that Bosch CIS FI cars have different cams and compression than carbbed cars. That is a big difference in power over just simply having and FI system. The deal is that the CIS FI cars of the 80's are very sensitive to vacuum. Carbbed cars have "racier" camshafts with more overlap. That requires more compression. Very radical camshafts (not street cars typically) can totally screw with having worthwhile vacuum.

 

So.... If you change your CIS FI car back to carbs, that is cool, but won't necessarily make much more or possibly any more power without pairing that with cams, compression, different cam/ignition timing, proper manifold runner length, worthwhile headers, etc., bla, bla.

 

I am an old school racer and dig carbs, but even the old injection systems on our cars as well as those dumb F-cars have the merit of being super reliable if you just drive the cars relatively regularly. Which is what I want to do the most anyway.

 

Where am I going with this? Simple, if you want to change to carbs, ask your self "why?". If the answer is more power, then are you prepared to get different cams and have head work done or potentially new pistons, etc. ? At which point, you probably will miss the civil nature of a good FI system. Personally, the only Countachs that I would consider putting back to carbs are the cars that were done by private individuals or businesses just to try and meet emissions behind official backs.

 

Such a shame it took them till the Diablo to go to Electronic FI, they could have been making more power much sooner . Ok, so you want more power on your Countach...... I can't remember the last time someone didn't wish for more power, but the truth is that if you have to modify the bejesus out of your cars to make them more like what you want, then you probably want a different car. I mean... I have a Viper so I can steer with my right foot and be a general hooligan, but my advice... you already have a Countach for god's sake, so blast the best 70's-80's music you can find and have fun!

 

If you still want more power, give me a call. I'm a purist though and like to keep things period correct. Either I or someone I know can help you out. To be honest, the thought of putting a Murcie derived drivetrain in a CT has at least crossed my mind.

 

Ok guys, I'll be writing up a big report on the full history of the Injection Prototype Countach soon that includes more information and history about Lamborghini, Lamborghini North America, the EPA, Chrysler, Ford, Many key players and some great old school stories.

 

Casey

www.putschracing.com

 

 

 

However, what people don't understand is that Bosch CIS FI cars have different cams and compression than carbbed cars. That is a big difference in power over just simply having and FI system. The deal is that the CIS FI cars of the 80's are very sensitive to vacuum. Carbbed cars have "racier" camshafts with more overlap. That requires more compression. Very radical camshafts (not street cars typically) can totally screw with having worthwhile vacuum.

 

So.... If you change your CIS FI car back to carbs, that is cool, but won't necessarily make much more or possibly any more power without pairing that with cams, compression, different cam/ignition timing, proper manifold runner length, worthwhile headers, etc., bla, bla.

 

 

Casey

www.putschracing.com

 

Your are absolutly right. The cams are where all the power is lost. The lift and duration on the carbed cars is 0.374 inches of lift with 292 degrees of duration on the intakes (per the owners manual), on the FI cars the lift is 0.338 inches with 255 degrees of duration (as measured on the set of Isky cams I have that were commissioned by Lamborghini of North America in the 3 Qtr of 1985, one of two or three sets produced). Running these configuration in my engine model the Hp drops from 377 to 322 Hp. Measuring the CR, it was only dropped from 9.2 (per the owners manual) for the carb cars to 9.0 (measured on my car) for the FI cars. The small change in CR is worth 7 Hp. So if you change just the cams you will get 370 Hp.

 

Cheers Jim

Your are absolutly right. The cams are where all the power is lost. The lift and duration on the carbed cars is 0.374 inches of lift with 292 degrees of duration on the intakes (per the owners manual), on the FI cars the lift is 0.338 inches with 255 degrees of duration (as measured on the set of Isky cams I have that were commissioned by Lamborghini of North America in the 3 Qtr of 1985, one of two or three sets produced). Running these configuration in my engine model the Hp drops from 377 to 322 Hp. Measuring the CR, it was only dropped from 9.2 (per the owners manual) for the carb cars to 9.0 (measured on my car) for the FI cars. The small change in CR is worth 7 Hp. So if you change just the cams you will get 370 Hp.

 

Cheers Jim

 

Cams baby!

 

So interesting how in the Ferrari world most people prefer the injected 308's and 512bb's over the Carbs for thought of drivability and reliability. Let's not open that can of worms though. Just pointing it out

 

Thanks Jim

Hi guys,

 

Converting a Countach to webbers is really not difficult. The most difficult part is simply sourcing or fabricating the manifolds....

 

However, what people don't understand is that Bosch CIS FI cars have different cams and compression than carbbed cars. That is a big difference in power over just simply having and FI system. The deal is that the CIS FI cars of the 80's are very sensitive to vacuum. Carbbed cars have "racier" camshafts with more overlap. That requires more compression. Very radical camshafts (not street cars typically) can totally screw with having worthwhile vacuum.

 

So.... If you change your CIS FI car back to carbs, that is cool, but won't necessarily make much more or possibly any more power without pairing that with cams, compression, different cam/ignition timing, proper manifold runner length, worthwhile headers, etc., bla, bla.

 

I am an old school racer and dig carbs, but even the old injection systems on our cars as well as those dumb F-cars have the merit of being super reliable if you just drive the cars relatively regularly. Which is what I want to do the most anyway.

 

Where am I going with this? Simple, if you want to change to carbs, ask your self "why?". If the answer is more power, then are you prepared to get different cams and have head work done or potentially new pistons, etc. ? At which point, you probably will miss the civil nature of a good FI system. Personally, the only Countachs that I would consider putting back to carbs are the cars that were done by private individuals or businesses just to try and meet emissions behind official backs.

 

Such a shame it took them till the Diablo to go to Electronic FI, they could have been making more power much sooner . Ok, so you want more power on your Countach...... I can't remember the last time someone didn't wish for more power, but the truth is that if you have to modify the bejesus out of your cars to make them more like what you want, then you probably want a different car. I mean... I have a Viper so I can steer with my right foot and be a general hooligan, but my advice... you already have a Countach for god's sake, so blast the best 70's-80's music you can find and have fun!

 

If you still want more power, give me a call. I'm a purist though and like to keep things period correct. Either I or someone I know can help you out. To be honest, the thought of putting a Murcie derived drivetrain in a CT has at least crossed my mind.

 

Ok guys, I'll be writing up a big report on the full history of the Injection Prototype Countach soon that includes more information and history about Lamborghini, Lamborghini North America, the EPA, Chrysler, Ford, Many key players and some great old school stories.

 

Casey

www.putschracing.com

I converted my CT to EFI and distributorless ignition. The difference was night and day..

By RUF? Don't you mean Koenig? Know they did some cars for both the US and euro market.

When I write Ruf it was Ruf from Schleinikon in Switzerland, the first picture is not a Koenig Turbo but the LP400s Biturbo #1121160 done by Albrex for swiss lambo dealer Max Bobnar.

I doubt that Koenig ever did a Turbo Countach, I've never seen on in person... the car on the picture has even not Koenig running boards but those of Lambo Rijssen from the Netherlands you can easily recognize by this vent in front of the rear wheel, the only Koenig specific add on is the wing.

The burgundy red LP400s has Koenig running boards, the car was originally red/white and is quite famous.

 

But lets get back to topic...

http://www.motorator.com/videos/1093

 

Some variations on Countach appreciation.

 

I converted my CT to EFI and distributorless ignition. The difference was night and day..

 

I'm sure it was quite noticeable, but there is a lot more to it than just that.

 

 

 

 

Adam Corolla... Seriously, is there an emoti-con for an eye roll?

 

Don't waste your time with that guy, here's a smarter and funnier spokes person that personally owns special cars from over 100 years of history. If anybody should talk about one.....

 

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/1986-l...untach-/849581/

Awesome Jay Leno's video!

I'm sure it was quite noticeable, but there is a lot more to it than just that.

 

 

 

 

Adam Corolla... Seriously, is there an emoti-con for an eye roll?

 

Don't waste your time with that guy, here's a smarter and funnier spokes person that personally owns special cars from over 100 years of history. If anybody should talk about one.....

 

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/1986-l...untach-/849581/

Alot more to it then what? It was fairly simple to do.

 

As for Adam Corrolla, his auto show sucks, Im merely pointing out he did an episode on a 2 valved CT that was converted.

Alot more to it then what? It was fairly simple to do.

 

That's why there was no historical significance to your car.

 

That's why there was no historical significance to your car.

 

 

No need for stick throwing. I only mean that the carbbed cars have different compression and cams. They are the biggest factor in the ability for an engine to make power at its core. It is indeed true that EFI is better than carbs and Bosch CIS FI as long as an EMP doesn't go off. I was only making the point that there is more to making power than just EFI. I was not discrediting his statement in anyway.

 

As for my car.... It is the first fuel injected Lamborghini. It was directly commissioned by the factory and used as an exact template for the cars to come. Your statement is simply untrue and the people that were involved with lamborghini at the time that are still alive and some that are not that would be very angry at that statement.

 

Interestingly, I have letters from those that have passed that will address your statement.

 

In a way I wish the car did not have significance as I would like to ad my own personal touches and I would be more inclined to drive it like crazy. Naturally, with a car that has significance, it is important to preserve it as well as one can and not to modify it in any large way as it is indeed significant in the story of Lamborghini.

 

Still compiling the history. Hang on guys, there is a lot to go through and I want it all to be accurate. I'm really not BSing that there is some serious stuff here.

 

Casey

No need for stick throwing. I only mean that the carbbed cars have different compression and cams. They are the biggest factor in the ability for an engine to make power at its core. It is indeed true that EFI is better than carbs and Bosch CIS FI as long as an EMP doesn't go off. I was only making the point that there is more to making power than just EFI. I was not discrediting his statement in anyway.

 

As for my car.... It is the first fuel injected Lamborghini. It was directly commissioned by the factory and used as an exact template for the cars to come. Your statement is simply untrue and the people that were involved with lamborghini at the time that are still alive and some that are not that would be very angry at that statement.

 

Interestingly, I have letters from those that have passed that will address your statement.

 

In a way I wish the car did not have significance as I would like to ad my own personal touches and I would be more inclined to drive it like crazy. Naturally, with a car that has significance, it is important to preserve it as well as one can and not to modify it in any large way as it is indeed significant in the story of Lamborghini.

 

Still compiling the history. Hang on guys, there is a lot to go through and I want it all to be accurate. I'm really not BSing that there is some serious stuff here.

 

Casey

 

 

I was referring to Allan's historically insignificant FI countach, obviously we're all aware of your car's historical significance.

No need for stick throwing. I only mean that the carbbed cars have different compression and cams. They are the biggest factor in the ability for an engine to make power at its core. It is indeed true that EFI is better than carbs and Bosch CIS FI as long as an EMP doesn't go off. I was only making the point that there is more to making power than just EFI. I was not discrediting his statement in anyway.

 

As for my car.... It is the first fuel injected Lamborghini. It was directly commissioned by the factory and used as an exact template for the cars to come. Your statement is simply untrue and the people that were involved with lamborghini at the time that are still alive and some that are not that would be very angry at that statement.

 

Interestingly, I have letters from those that have passed that will address your statement.

 

In a way I wish the car did not have significance as I would like to ad my own personal touches and I would be more inclined to drive it like crazy. Naturally, with a car that has significance, it is important to preserve it as well as one can and not to modify it in any large way as it is indeed significant in the story of Lamborghini.

 

Still compiling the history. Hang on guys, there is a lot to go through and I want it all to be accurate. I'm really not BSing that there is some serious stuff here.

 

Casey

 

Actually, I may be taking a while to compile this report on the history. I am reading letters now and it is clear that this car was at the beginning and the epicenter of a war involving many different people, the EPA, Chrysler, and Lamborghini, etc. I sure as heck want this to be accurate. It will ruffle feathers.

 

Casey

 

I was referring to Allan's historically insignificant FI countach, obviously we're all aware of your car's historical significance.

 

My sincere apologies. I knew some crazies in the F-Chat world and am a bit gun shy. Thanks again, it's nice to be talking with intelligent enthusiasts.