Replacing clutch master and slave?

On older manual transmission cars, I like to replace the master and slave cylinders as maintenance items. My car is 12 years old, and I am sure the master and slave could use a refresh.

 

I can see the master pretty well, and I am sure it's not fun to replace, but I feel like an idiot because I don't see how you can replace the slave cylinder, #26 in this diagram, without removing the engine/transmission:

 

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/parts/lamborgh...ch-manual-43593

 

Is there a way to replace it/refurbish it without removing the lump, or is that something everyone replaces when it's engine out clutch time?

 

There's nothing I can find in the shop manual about the slave (or as they call it, "Clutch Pump").

If it's like the diablo, it was easily accessible underneath. Have you been under the car?

If it's like the Diablo, it was easily accessible underneath. Have you been under the car?

 

Yes I have spent some quality time under the car, and I have seen the pics of the Diablo on that forum, and it's not the same.

 

But I do wish we had more DIYers that posted on here like you have on the Diablo forum.

Yes I have spent some quality time under the car, and I have seen the pics of the Diablo on that forum, and it's not the same.

 

But I do wish we had more DIYers that posted on here like you have on the Diablo forum.

 

 

Get ahold of Chadbourn Bolles. He's quite a character but has insane amounts of knowledge on these cars. I'm sure he'd be able to answer your questions right away.

 

His website is: http://www.lamborghinionly.com/

Get ahold of Chadbourn Bolles. He's quite a character but has insane amounts of knowledge on these cars. I'm sure he'd be able to answer your questions right away.

 

His website is: http://www.lamborghinionly.com/

 

I would definitely like to speak to someone with a deep knowledge of the Murci. I will call Chadbourn, but everything on his website says he doesn't work on the Murci or later cars.

I would definitely like to speak to someone with a deep knowledge of the Murci. I will call Chadbourn, but everything on his website says he doesn't work on the Murci or later cars.

 

 

Try him. He may not work on the Murci, but he knows a lot about them.

To access it from under the car, you likely have to drop the front diff.

Ok, I changed the master cylinder tonight. It really wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but definitely more of an effort than probably any other car in the world.

 

I'll add pics with details soon, but just briefly, everything is done from inside the front trunk and the footwell. There is no access from below, more so due to the frame being in the way as opposed to anything removeable like the differential.

 

The parts diagram is a little confusing. There is no traditional slave cylinder to change like on the Diabo or most any other manual transmission car. The cylinder show in the parts diagram is the master cylinder. Changing the slave means changing the hydraulic throw out bearing. So no easy fix there.

 

I will bleed the new clutch master in the morning when I have access to a helper to keep the reservoir full while I vacuum bleed the system. It flows pretty quickly and the reservoir sucks air very quickly so even with 1 man bleeders, it goes a lot easier with a helper.

 

 

The parts diagram is a little confusing. There is no traditional slave cylinder to change like on the Diabo or most any other manual transmission car. The cylinder show in the parts diagram is the master cylinder. Changing the slave means changing the hydraulic throw out bearing. So no easy fix there.

 

I wonder if thats the reason why they recommend replacing the TO bearing when doing the clutch. Not preventative maintenance because the bearing may fail, but preventative maintenance because the slave hydraulics may fail.

I wonder if thats the reason why they recommend replacing the TO bearing when doing the clutch. Not preventative maintenance because the bearing may fail, but preventative maintenance because the slave hydraulics may fail.

 

I was thinking the same thing. And designing it that way gives them a very good revenue stream by charging a king's ransom for the part.

I was thinking the same thing. And designing it that way gives them a very good revenue stream by charging a king's ransom for the part.

 

 

Sorry I didn't get on the forums sooner, I would have surely told you, there is NO easily serviceable slave cylinder, in the sense, that if you want to get at 'it' (throw-out bearing and slave cylinder) you will need to pull the motor out, and separate the engine and transmission, and I surely wouldnt 'rebuild' a stock one, because if it fails, your stuck pulling the motor out again. Its a heafty sum, but lord knows yanking a motor out costs a hefty sum as well. I'd replace the throwout bearing and slave at clutch replacement time. Fortunately in a lambo, those come quite often (sarcasm).

 

Jon

I wonder if thats the reason why they recommend replacing the TO bearing when doing the clutch. Not preventative maintenance because the bearing may fail, but preventative maintenance because the slave hydraulics may fail.

 

correct, and why I changed my T/O bearing to the Gallardo/R8 version- far less failures, and £500 instead of £1700 (UK prices). Only draw back is you need to use the LP670 bell housing (or as lambo calls it a "clutch cover") I will post about this in a separate thread.

 

PS- all done in my home garage- underground car park of my apartment building :-)

correct, and why I changed my T/O bearing to the Gallardo/R8 version- far less failures, and £500 instead of £1700 (UK prices). Only draw back is you need to use the LP670 bell housing (or as lambo calls it a "clutch cover") I will post about this in a separate thread.

 

PS- all done in my home garage- underground car park of my apartment building :-)

 

I'll be interested to see that post. It sounds like needing an LP670 bellhousing should be called a "show stopper," not a "draw back."

 

They don't even list the bellhousing separately in the parts list, and if they did, it would probably cost more than 4 regular throw out bearings.

 

And I don't know how many people selling used LP640 boxes are going to want to sell you just the bell housing?

 

If this is the case, then this is a solution for the few that can get a bell housing, not the many.

 

I'll be interested to see that post. It sounds like needing an LP670 bellhousing should be called a "show stopper," not a "draw back."

 

They don't even list the bellhousing separately in the parts list, and if they did, it would probably cost more than 4 regular throw out bearings.

 

And I don't know how many people selling used LP640 boxes are going to want to sell you just the bell housing?

 

If this is the case, then this is a solution for the few that can get a bell housing, not the many.

 

nope cost me £1200 from Lamborghini London (including taxes). Its shown below (but note the price is excluding VAT at 20%). Lamborghini London gave me a nice rate and have been very helpful information wise. Don't forget at £1200 plus £500 for the new style t/o bearing, your total price is the same as the old style bearing (£1700) which fails more..

 

Here is the part number for the clutch cover:

 

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/parts/lamborgh...3465/086323209K

nope cost me £1200 from Lamborghini London (including taxes). Its shown below (but note the price is excluding VAT at 20%). Lamborghini London gave me a nice rate and have been very helpful information wise. Don't forget at £1200 plus £500 for the new style t/o bearing, your total price is the same as the old style bearing (£1700) which fails more..

 

Here is the part number for the clutch cover:

 

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/parts/lamborgh...3465/086323209K

 

Now we're talking. Thanks for that part number. I see it listed in the US from a common supplier for $2300.

 

Is that for egear or manual, or does it matter?

 

Still a tough call depending on how many throw out bearings you think you're going to need during your ownership, which is based on miles driven/year, you're typical clutch life, number of years you plan to own the car, and if you would always replace the TOB with every new clutch or skip every other one.

 

Too bad it's not just a straight swap for the TOB.

Now we're talking. Thanks for that part number. I see it listed in the US from a common supplier for $2300.

 

Is that for egear or manual, or does it matter?

 

Still a tough call depending on how many throw out bearings you think you're going to need during your ownership, which is based on miles driven/year, you're typical clutch life, number of years you plan to own the car, and if you would always replace the TOB with every new clutch or skip every other one.

 

Too bad it's not just a straight swap for the TOB.

 

my car has 60,000 well driven miles; I use it daily in central london- clutch life- 5-8K miles owing to the fact an e-gear never fully engages 1st gear in stop/start traffic. Now you know why i do my own clutch change. I've just changed to a kevlar clutch and I hope to see some more clutch life.

 

There the clutch cover is the same between manual/egear- but the t/o bearing is different, and the e-gear uses a sensor (added/bolted and dowelled) to the clutch cover.

 

The throw out bearing for he e-gear has magnet added for the sensor, and it has different seals - as the manual uses brake fluid for the t/o bearing, and and the e-gear uses an automatic transmission oil...

my car has 60,000 well driven miles; I use it daily in central london- clutch life- 5-8K miles owing to the fact an e-gear never fully engages 1st gear in stop/start traffic. Now you know why i do my own clutch change. I've just changed to a kevlar clutch and I hope to see some more clutch life.

 

There the clutch cover is the same between manual/egear- but the t/o bearing is different, and the e-gear uses a sensor (added/bolted and dowelled) to the clutch cover.

 

The throw out bearing for he e-gear has magnet added for the sensor, and it has different seals - as the manual uses brake fluid for the t/o bearing, and and the e-gear uses an automatic transmission oil...

 

That's definitely a big win for you based on your driving amounts and egear. For me, I probably only have one clutch change left in my ownership future given I only do around 2K miles a year on my fun cars and it's a manual, and I drive in a way that is nice to the clutch.

That's definitely a big win for you based on your driving amounts and egear. For me, I probably only have one clutch change left in my ownership future given I only do around 2K miles a year on my fun cars and it's a manual, and I drive in a way that is nice to the clutch.

 

i actually bought most of the components to switch to manual. Only need a manual instrument cluster and (no one can cofirm; a GFA unit and ECUs and engine to ECU harness).

 

For the sake of time (car been in parts for 18 months) I'm putting it together as an e-gear (albeit with the upgraded t/o bearing). The e-gear is a fun thing when out of the city... if I get under 10K miles on the kevlar clutch, I'll complete the manual conversion next clutch change....

i actually bought most of the components to switch to manual. Only need a manual instrument cluster and (no one can cofirm; a GFA unit and ECUs and engine to ECU harness).

 

For the sake of time (car been in parts for 18 months) I'm putting it together as an e-gear (albeit with the upgraded t/o bearing). The e-gear is a fun thing when out of the city... if I get under 10K miles on the kevlar clutch, I'll complete the manual conversion next clutch change....

 

With the amount of DIY you are doing, do you see a way to modify the center tunnel with removable panels to make it possible to remove the transmission without removing the engine?

 

From videos that have been posted, it's definitely possible to remove the bolts for the bell housing to the engine without removing the lump, and once that's done and the front drive shaft is removed, it looks like the only problem is being able to slide the transmission forward by a few inches so that it can clear the studs and the shaft, but that can't be done because of the narrowing shape of the tunnel.

 

The egear may have more complications though.

With the amount of DIY you are doing, do you see a way to modify the center tunnel with removable panels to make it possible to remove the transmission without removing the engine?

 

From videos that have been posted, it's definitely possible to remove the bolts for the bell housing to the engine without removing the lump, and once that's done and the front drive shaft is removed, it looks like the only problem is being able to slide the transmission forward by a few inches so that it can clear the studs and the shaft, but that can't be done because of the narrowing shape of the tunnel.

 

The egear may have more complications though.

 

Yes. I'm under the car next week, and I will take some pics to show what needs to be modified (for a manual car). You would need to cut one frame component and replace the section with a centre section with a flange at each end.

 

You may not need to remove the engine, but you'd need to lift it up of its mounts and back; theres no room for the transmission to move forward towards the firewall to remove the two spline drives from engine block and clutch before you can angle transmission down or drop it. You'd slide the engine back, then drop the transmission straight down.

 

It wont work for an e-gear as you cannot get to some of the bolts as they are under he e-gear valves/pipes, and the fluid reservoir lines run between the heads and the water coolant pipes on the engine (I guess these could be re-routed but it doesnt fix the first problem). Ferrari where smarter and mounted their valves and pipes on side, which can be swung out of the way to remove the box.

Yes. I'm under the car next week, and I will take some pics to show what needs to be modified (for a manual car). You would need to cut one frame component and replace the section with a centre section with a flange at each end.

 

You may not need to remove the engine, but you'd need to lift it up of its mounts and back; theres no room for the transmission to move forward towards the firewall to remove the two spline drives from engine block and clutch before you can angle transmission down or drop it. You'd slide the engine back, then drop the transmission straight down.

 

It wont work for an e-gear as you cannot get to some of the bolts as they are under he e-gear valves/pipes, and the fluid reservoir lines run between the heads and the water coolant pipes on the engine (I guess these could be re-routed but it doesnt fix the first problem). Ferrari where smarter and mounted their valves and pipes on side, which can be swung out of the way to remove the box.

 

What I am talking about is making room for the transmission to move forward so you don't have move the engine at all.

 

The tunnel is in the way, but could the sides of the tunnel be made removable to give the needed room?

What I am talking about is making room for the transmission to move forward so you don't have move the engine at all.

 

The tunnel is in the way, but could the sides of the tunnel be made removable to give the needed room?

 

you could make the first part of the trans tunnel removable I guess; I'd probably make it out of aluminium and carbon laminate; mold in some aluminium strips and that way make the part a bolt in/out proposition... personally i'd just move the motor back same as the post by fluid motor union on their website.

I'm the other UK white E-Gear owner who changes his own clutches in his garage then..... I didn't know that the 670 pressure plate was different, and the R8 shared some compatible bits...

 

 

 

 

 

I'm the other UK white E-Gear owner who changes his own clutches in his garage then..... I didn't know that the 670 pressure plate was different, and the R8 shared some compatible bits...

 

 

Wow, not a lot of room in that garage for such a big job. How tall of a ceiling do you need to get the engine out? My garage only has 8 foot ceilings, and I bet that doesn't leave a lot of room.

 

Can you roll the chassis when the engine is out? I imagine I would have to reverse in my car, pull the engine and then rearrange things while I work on the clutch.

I'm the other UK white E-Gear owner who changes his own clutches in his garage then..... I didn't know that the 670 pressure plate was different, and the R8 shared some compatible bits...

 

 

LP670 pressure plate and clutch disc and flywheel are all the same as 640/580. What differs on the 670 is the throw out bearing (gallardo/R8); but this has oil ways in different positions than the 580/640 throw out bearing; so you also need the 670 clutch cover (bell housing for most people)- it has different cast oil ways and another modification (where the pressure line from the pump plugs into the bell housing). I will post pics up on my clutch thread.

 

 

AS a side note- I also made the mistake of buying to short a crane, and had to pull the engine from the side... never again.... bought a longer arm crane to put the engine/trans back in..

 

PS we should have a beer!