Lambo Owners BEWARE!!!!! shoddy clutch repair.

I don't think they will approve.

 

That being said, on older cars I've had and built (to varying degrees), I have had part of the frame cut and replaced, even crossmembers. It is going to come down to the skill of the person doing the work, and that it is not done with any frequency.

As per a request from a LP member, I'm drafting a letter to the engineering department at Lamborghini to see what their opinion is on such repair tactics. I will definately post their reply.

 

Seems rather pointless don't you think?

 

My guess is the factory is going to condemn the practice and suggest the car come into only Lamborghini certified dealerships for repairs.

 

Just an idea.

Seems rather pointless don't you think?

 

My guess is the factory is going to condemn the practice and suggest the car come into only Lamborghini certified dealerships for repairs.

 

Just an idea.

 

 

Exactly.

 

Asking the factory what they think about cutting the crossmember, placing aftermarket wheels, or hanging a pine tree air freshener is going to yield the same result.

You would be suprised how many factory car dealer will do something like this in order to fix/replace parts. Its not unheard of. Although it may not be the recommended approach. Car factories build cars without much concern to the repair aspect in mind because if your going to bring it back to them they will bill you up the ying yang. Everybody knows a car dealer will charge you more........always! Ask any good mechanic about a heater core and how you will cut out a piece of the car to get to it. I guy my mother knows worked as a mechanic for some bus company and had to replace the ac compressor......he cut the side of the bus open to access it. Even though factory manuals will tell you how to do certain jobs a lot of times people will do a job like they did with yours to avoid risking possible damage to other componants. In the case of your work done, I would probably opt to do this option provided I knew more about the design of the car. Dont think that your car is a hazzard or unsafe or whatever because of this work. Im not going to comment on whether the forthcomingness or description of options and discussion because its kinda like he said she said. but, getting back to the work in general. If there was a problem going to arise because of the cutting/welding , you would have noticed it already.

 

kind of like this?

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost....amp;postcount=2

 

You would be suprised how many factory car dealer will do something like this in order to fix/replace parts. Its not unheard of. Although it may not be the recommended approach. Car factories build cars without much concern to the repair aspect in mind because if your going to bring it back to them they will bill you up the ying yang. Everybody knows a car dealer will charge you more........always! Ask any good mechanic about a heater core and how you will cut out a piece of the car to get to it. I guy my mother knows worked as a mechanic for some bus company and had to replace the ac compressor......he cut the side of the bus open to access it. Even though factory manuals will tell you how to do certain jobs a lot of times people will do a job like they did with yours to avoid risking possible damage to other componants. In the case of your work done, I would probably opt to do this option provided I knew more about the design of the car. Dont think that your car is a hazzard or unsafe or whatever because of this work. Im not going to comment on whether the forthcomingness or description of options and discussion because its kinda like he said she said. but, getting back to the work in general. If there was a problem going to arise because of the cutting/welding , you would have noticed it already.

 

Piss the fcuk off, you ignorant pile of dick cheese.

 

Lambo and Ferrari have been building hard to service cars since time began...the best mechanics NEVER cut bits of car out...NEVER. Where did you come up with bullshit, and what shop do you work for? Only lazy, stupid mechanics cut corners and car frames. It takes time and money to service and repair these cars. Shortcuts only benefit the shop doing the repairs and never the consumer. Care to re certify that chassis to US of A impact standards after you've cut a chassis member out? No? Then you have no basis saying that a cut chassis is safe or meets standards.

kind of like this?

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost....amp;postcount=2

 

 

Piss the fcuk off, you ignorant pile of dick cheese.

 

Lambo and Ferrari have been building hard to service cars since time began...the best mechanics NEVER cut bits of car out...NEVER. Where did you come up with bullshit, and what shop do you work for? Only lazy, stupid mechanics cut corners and car frames. It takes time and money to service and repair these cars. Shortcuts only benefit the shop doing the repairs and never the consumer. Care to re certify that chassis to US of A impact standards after you've cut a chassis member out? No? Then you have no basis saying that a cut chassis is safe or meets standards.

 

I will agree until the bolden section, and then I do not disagree with you, but....... As I mentioned before, I have had shops cut and replace frame sections and there has never been a safety issue. It comes down to the person doing it. On that note, I don't think it is wise to replace a welded section with a bolt-in part, and I disagree with prez about any problem should have already surfaced. Just my $0.02

 

 

Lots of domestic cars have bolt in cross members and its not an issue. The piece of frame in question is very light weight and I don't feel cutting it and bolting it back in would do any harm. I am not an engineer, just my ten cents. I have actually thought that you could cut it and build a bracket and bolt it back in. I wouldnt do it to my car, because I feel it hurts the value of the car. But thats the primary reason I wouldnt do it. On a side note, the welds on the frame of my car arent that great. It looks like they were done with a 300 dollar wire feed. My countach was the same way. Always kinda bummed me out, wanted to see pretty tig welds every where.

If it was for me and I had to cut here and there just to access to a part which needs to be replaced and save me some money, I rather would have not bought the car to begin with and have some spare cash lying around in my bank account. Do it the correct way, even if it cost more or just dont do it.

What I was basically stating is that often there are times where you do need to either cut or remove something to access a part for removal and most this is not limited to 1 type of car or manufacturer. Just in general of the course of time and I feel a good qualified mechanic who might take a short cut like this would know whether or not this could be done properly with the technique he plans to use. As suzukidave said many cars do have a bolt in cross member so the bolt in theory is not so much a issue but, because it was touched/modified.....then it becomes more personal. Like you cut up my baby. Which I can agree with. Mr Gman, the reason I feel that that if a problem would have happened by now is that the cross member is located at the engine/transaxle and with the stress of engine being roughly 487 ft pounds of torque @ 632 hp and being you have a stick where you have an extra stress because of the typical pulling effect of the clutch you would be putting a lot of stress on it compared to say a honda. if the car was a front engine care with rear wheel drive I would be more concerned

As far as Mr Lambochop "Care to re certify that chassis to US of A impact standards after you've cut a chassis member out? No? Then you have no basis saying that a cut chassis is safe or meets standards." Impact standards are not based on location or whether the crossmember is bolted in or welded. They take into account on how the car reacts to front, rear and side impact at the doors during crash tests but, you do have a great idea that it should be more chassis based because when you get hit, its always above it and the damage always pulls the chassis with it.

look at the photo of a murcielago chassis its very well designed except for the metal being a little on the smaller side but, if you look where the crossmember would be located its wrapped around by a lot of support ,stress should be so much a factor on that one part. But, Mr Lambo might want to make an appointment with a good body shop and just have it inspected and if it makes him feel better and maybe even have it restored.

btw I used a 2008 murcielago as the example

Comparing the metal work and design of the Murcielago to a Diablo is a bit of a moot point.

 

The Murcielago was built in far superior conditions in comparison to the Diablo, especially the older ones.

 

Lets face it folks, just because it's a Lamborghini and it has a 6 figure price tag doesn't mean you are getting the most technologically advanced, highest quality, best assembled car on the planet, it's very much not the truth.

 

The cost comes with exclusivity, these cars (Diablos) were put together by a "handful" of people, and they probably aren't the most qualified, to be doing it. Like SuzukiDave said, he was even disappointed with the welds he saw. I have no doubt many board members here could out perform a factory assembler or mechanic for that matter on working with/on these cars.

 

I've met quite a few owners who were disappointed with the quality of their older cars, granted these were usually first time buyers who weren't familiar with the quirky side of Lamborghini ownership and thought because "I paid 100,000+ on a car and expect the best, etc. etc. etc."

 

Life is full of disappointments unfortunately.

 

Prez, in regard to your situation, i wouldn't be upset with Wil. I'm not saying you are, but if i were you i would be WAY more upset with the previous owner in this instance, for allegedly not informing you of all the past "details" about your car, but you two need to work that out, whether that be in private or not. Best of luck and hopefully you get some closure on the situation.

 

 

Comparing the metal work and design of the Murcielago to a Diablo is a bit of a moot point.

heres the diablo frame

 

Prez, in regard to your situation, i wouldn't be upset with Wil. I'm not saying you are, but if i were you i would be WAY more upset with the previous owner in this instance, for allegedly not informing you of all the past "details" about your car, but you two need to work that out, whether that be in private or not. Best of luck and hopefully you get some closure on the situation

Im not upset I dont take things too seriously. But, what you said about informing you of the past details that would definetly irk me. Whether it was of a serious issue or not, just the fact that it wasnt plainly dscussed or brought up basically would make me wonder about other possible issues.

 

As suzukidave said many cars do have a bolt in cross member so the bolt in theory is not so much a issue but, because it was touched/modified.....then it becomes more personal.

 

Mr Gman, the reason I feel that that if a problem would have happened by now is that the cross member is located at the engine/transaxle and with the stress of engine being roughly 487 ft pounds of torque @ 632 hp and being you have a stick where you have an extra stress because of the typical pulling effect of the clutch you would be putting a lot of stress on it compared to say a honda. if the car was a front engine care with rear wheel drive I would be more concerned

 

 

The modern cars that have bolt-in cross members are more often than not, sub-frame cars. Before even putting in a bolt-in supercharger kit for 75 extra hp, you have to put in subframe connectors. When I got out of my muscle car era (mid 90's), there was only 1 company offering bolt-in subframe connectors. When I looked at them, I couldn't help but think the extra stress they were going to be under when you 'got on it'. Of course, I am not an engineer, so it's just my opinion. Of course, I've seen rollcages where the drivers side had a pinned section that could be removed so the driver could enter.

 

But then again, it's your car, and your opinion is what matters most. Other than voicing my opinion from my experience, I expect you to look at other sources, and then reach your opinion objectively. Even if we still disagree on an issue, it doesn't mean we are going to be enemies. I hope everything gets squared away for you, and that you enjoy your car.

 

Out of curiosity, as this thread just emerged, were you just made aware of this situation?

 

Thank you.

Im not upset I dont take things too seriously. But, what you said about informing you of the past details that would definetly irk me. Whether it was of a serious issue or not, just the fact that it wasnt plainly dscussed or brought up basically would make me wonder about other possible issues.

 

Glad to hear that you don't take things too seriously, but there are points where it should be. Obviously this would be one of them. But to me it sounds like you should have a problem with the previous owner, and not the shop the previous owner took the car too. Especially if the previous owner requested the aforementioned "operation" to the vehicle, and then neglected to inform you of the procedure.

 

Just food for thought.

Glad to hear that you don't take things too seriously, but there are points where it should be. Obviously this would be one of them. But to me it sounds like you should have a problem with the previous owner, and not the shop the previous owner took the car too. Especially if the previous owner requested the aforementioned "operation" to the vehicle, and then neglected to inform you of the procedure.

 

Just food for thought.

very true

I've been bitting my tougue on this for a couple of years...I had some SHODDY repair work done.

 

I went out of my fuckin mind, but since the car was sold, I let it go.

 

 

As per a request from a LP member, I'm drafting a letter to the engineering department at Lamborghini to see what their opinion is on such repair tactics. I will definately post their reply.

 

I already know what factory would say.They will say to never do it adain.

 

I know of a shop in South Florida that was doing this.

 

So do I. It's called JCM PERFORMANCE in Fort Lauderdale and the guy who does it is named JOHNNY.

So do I. It's called JCM PERFORMANCE in Fort Lauderdale and the guy who does it is named JOHNNY.

 

 

Just for you Howard...

So do I. It's called ... in Fort Lauderdale and the guy who does it is named ....

 

I can't believe you guys are still going on about this! The chassis member I removed was a skinny tube that is basically there to keep the weight of the engine from spreading the two sides of the space frame chassis. It wasn't bolted back in like it was part of a cheap back yard kids' swing-set either. Steel bushings were machined, fitted in precision drilled holes and Heli-arc welded in place in the ends of the tube. Strong, triangulated brackets were neatly fabricated and Heli-arc welded in place. Everything was nicely cleaned up and painted. The bolts were of adequate grade and size for the job and properly torqued. It was a good well thought-out installation.

 

The crossmember under the transmission is removable from the factory. The much larger crossmember that holds up the end of the engine in a Countach is removable. The entire sub-frame that holds the engine and rear suspension in a Ferrari Testarossa is removable. There are plenty more examples.

 

As far as asking the factory about this: Of course they would never endorse ANY modifications to their cars. The factory, on the other hand, has made plenty of design mistakes on their cars and have published service manuals with serious mistakes and misinformation. I have also had to weld tube joints on Diablo chassis that were incompletely welded by the factory. In some cases the weldor only welded two sides of a rectangular (4 sided) tube joint, hardly Kosher.

 

We are creative and have come up with many thoughtful solutions to Lamborghini design short-comings (not just Lamborghini, all manufacturers make design mistakes to some degree). You won't find a better shop in the North East for Lamborghini repair and restoration. If you're tired of paying $120.00/hour dealer or metropolitan independent shop rates, our labor rate ($85 - 90/hour) is an added bonus. We can do the work so it's "stone stock" when we're done or we can make intelligent upgrades that can often save the Lamborghini owner money. For anything other than an oil change, the cost of sending your car to Exoticars USA by enclosed trailer (which we can provide or arrange) is negligible compared to the savings in labor expense compared to dealership service or other independent shops in the area.

 

Hopefully everyone will excuse a little spamming here, but it seems to be in order after being very publicly accused of being some skulky inept 'chop shop'.

 

Wil de Groot

I can't believe you guys are still going on about this! The chassis member I removed was a skinny tube that is basically there to keep the weight of the engine from spreading the two sides of the space frame chassis. It wasn't bolted back in like it was part of a cheap back yard kids' swing-set either. Steel bushings were machined, fitted in precision drilled holes and Heli-arc welded in place in the ends of the tube. Strong, triangulated brackets were neatly fabricated and Heli-arc welded in place. Everything was nicely cleaned up and painted. The bolts were of adequate grade and size for the job and properly torqued. It was a good well thought-out installation.

 

The crossmember under the transmission is removable from the factory. The much larger crossmember that holds up the end of the engine in a Countach is removable. The entire sub-frame that holds the engine and rear suspension in a Ferrari Testarossa is removable. There are plenty more examples.

 

As far as asking the factory about this: Of course they would never endorse ANY modifications to their cars. The factory, on the other hand, has made plenty of design mistakes on their cars and have published service manuals with serious mistakes and misinformation. I have also had to weld tube joints on Diablo chassis that were incompletely welded by the factory. In some cases the weldor only welded two sides of a rectangular (4 sided) tube joint, hardly Kosher.

 

We are creative and have come up with many thoughtful solutions to Lamborghini design short-comings (not just Lamborghini, all manufacturers make design mistakes to some degree). You won't find a better shop in the North East for Lamborghini repair and restoration. If you're tired of paying $120.00/hour dealer or metropolitan independent shop rates, our labor rate ($85 - 90/hour) is an added bonus. We can do the work so it's "stone stock" when we're done or we can make intelligent upgrades that can often save the Lamborghini owner money. For anything other than an oil change, the cost of sending your car to Exoticars USA by enclosed trailer (which we can provide or arrange) is negligible compared to the savings in labor expense compared to dealership service or other independent shops in the area.

 

Hopefully everyone will excuse a little spamming here, but it seems to be in order after being very publicly accused of being some skulky inept 'chop shop'.

 

Wil de Groot

 

I for one would like to see clear pics of Wil's repair. Having owned a Diablo and having been under it several times, I totally believe that there are better ways to service these vehicles with some changes that may or may not affect structural integrity and safety standards.

 

On my 01 Diablo, an AC line blew. Lambo's "brilliant engineering" would've meant cutting the factory sealed undertray and removing the dash to replace the hose. A savvy repair shop found a way to splice and mend the line by simply removing the tire splash guard. Savings: $4000 + New owner was consulted on the repair PRIOR to me selling the car to him.

 

In short, I tend to think that the car owner in this case might be a tad hypersensitive to the thought of "butchering" his car when in fact, a better repair procedure was found through a little intuition.

 

I haven't seen the cross member we're discussing, that's why I think pics might go a long way to telling a more complete story.

 

It also sounds as if there was a miscommunication and if I were Wil, future such repairs using non-factory approved methods would compel me to have this information printed on the repair ticket requiring the owner's signature of consent.

 

That's my two cents, for whatever it's worth.

 

I can't believe you guys are still going on about this! The chassis member I removed was a skinny tube that is basically there to keep the weight of the engine from spreading the two sides of the space frame chassis. It wasn't bolted back in like it was part of a cheap back yard kids' swing-set either. Steel bushings were machined, fitted in precision drilled holes and Heli-arc welded in place in the ends of the tube. Strong, triangulated brackets were neatly fabricated and Heli-arc welded in place. Everything was nicely cleaned up and painted. The bolts were of adequate grade and size for the job and properly torqued. It was a good well thought-out installation.

 

The crossmember under the transmission is removable from the factory. The much larger crossmember that holds up the end of the engine in a Countach is removable. The entire sub-frame that holds the engine and rear suspension in a Ferrari Testarossa is removable. There are plenty more examples.

 

As far as asking the factory about this: Of course they would never endorse ANY modifications to their cars. The factory, on the other hand, has made plenty of design mistakes on their cars and have published service manuals with serious mistakes and misinformation. I have also had to weld tube joints on Diablo chassis that were incompletely welded by the factory. In some cases the weldor only welded two sides of a rectangular (4 sided) tube joint, hardly Kosher.

 

We are creative and have come up with many thoughtful solutions to Lamborghini design short-comings (not just Lamborghini, all manufacturers make design mistakes to some degree). You won't find a better shop in the North East for Lamborghini repair and restoration. If you're tired of paying $120.00/hour dealer or metropolitan independent shop rates, our labor rate ($85 - 90/hour) is an added bonus. We can do the work so it's "stone stock" when we're done or we can make intelligent upgrades that can often save the Lamborghini owner money. For anything other than an oil change, the cost of sending your car to Exoticars USA by enclosed trailer (which we can provide or arrange) is negligible compared to the savings in labor expense compared to dealership service or other independent shops in the area.

 

Hopefully everyone will excuse a little spamming here, but it seems to be in order after being very publicly accused of being some skulky inept 'chop shop'.

 

Wil de Groot

 

 

Wil,

 

I don't think anyone is throwing stones at you any longer.

I've been looking at this crossmember for years wondering.

I keep my cars on lifts in my garage and have always wondered why this wasn't removable. If your steering is bolted in, then surely this can be bolted also. Though I wouldn't let anyone but myself (the best welder/fabricator in the world) make this mod on my car, it can't do any harm if done right... aside from de-valuing the car, and adding a few pounds, there are no consequences.

 

I do have a theory on why this crossmember is there, and not bolted in, and why the engine has to be removed to change the clutch, but I would rather someone else say it.

It also sounds as if there was a miscommunication and if I were Wil, future such repairs using non-factory approved methods would compel me to have this information printed on the repair ticket requiring the owner's signature of consent.

 

That's my two cents, for whatever it's worth.

That would have eliminated all this BULLSHIT of HE SAID....SHE SAID, wouldn't it?