Has Noahs ark been found?

I disagree. My existance is very defined and important. fcuk the stars. They have no more importance than me. My existance = perpetuation of my genes.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

 

 

 

Jeff Skilling's favorite book!

 

 

I don't think we want to go there, but your genes in the end, after hundreds of generations, arrive to what? Ask yourself that, because in year 1AD someone in your family tree, if wondered about it, would come to you for the answer to that question.

because in year 1AD...

 

 

This is not an attack on you, but a HUGE annoyance of mine.

 

Whe people say 1AD or 1910AD, they don't really mean that. They MEAN AD1 or AD1910. Even buildings have it etched in them incorrectly.

 

AD does NOT mean after death. It means Anno Domina (in the year of our lord). It ALWAYS GOES FIRST.

 

If you use CE or BCE (Common Era and Before Common Era) it can go after.

 

1AD (if AD meant after death) would be AD34 (because Jesus allegedly lived for 33 years).

 

Rant over.

Jeff Skilling's favorite book!

 

 

I don't think we want to go there, but your genes in the end, after hundreds of generations, arrive to what? Ask yourself that, because in year 1AD someone in your family tree, if wondered about it, would come to you for the answer to that question.

 

my genes contribute to the most beautiful thing in the known Universe. A blue and green planet in perfect cosmic circumstance is supporting life. Life is more important than anything in the known universe. In a universe of entropy we have the opposite due to energy from the sun.

I'm not sure I agree about one "real" truth in all subjects. I think by its very nature, "real" truth cannot exist when dealing with abstract concepts, because for something to be real truth, it must be proven. One cannot necessarily prove the abstract , therefore no "real" truth exists in that context...it varies by perception and thus is only "real" based on individual perception. Pikemike assumes that he is correct in pointing out that Miami girls are the most beautiful...Allan disagrees. There is not a "real" truth to either argument, only a perception of the truth by each side. And since there is no "real" truth on abstract concepts, one cannot win an argument when arguing about the abstract, if "to win" means uncovering the "real" truth. (anyone buying what I'm selling? )

 

And to Joebiz...fear as it is used in the Bible, I don't think the root of that word as it was translated means "fear" as it is commonly used today...I think the root word had to do with reverence...I'm not 100% certain on that, but I think that's what I remember...and well said on the other stuff!

I'm not sure I agree about one "real" truth in all subjects. I think by its very nature, "real" truth cannot exist when dealing with abstract concepts, because for something to be real truth, it must be proven. One cannot necessarily prove the abstract , therefore no "real" truth exists in that context...it varies by perception and thus is only "real" based on individual perception. Pikemike assumes that he is correct in pointing out that Miami girls are the most beautiful...Allan disagrees. There is not a "real" truth to either argument, only a perception of the truth by each side. And since there is no "real" truth on abstract concepts, one cannot win an argument when arguing about the abstract, if "to win" means uncovering the "real" truth. (anyone buying what I'm selling? )

 

And to Joebiz...fear as it is used in the Bible, I don't think the root of that word as it was translated means "fear" as it is commonly used today...I think the root word had to do with reverence...I'm not 100% certain on that, but I think that's what I remember...and well said on the other stuff!

 

 

There is only one truth; whether we know it or even can know it. It doesn't matter how mundane or important the question, there is only one truth. Trust me on that one.

LOVE Richard Dawkins.

 

 

He was great on Family Feud...

He was great on Family Feud...

 

 

I would say I am mostly with D. Wiggs on belief in formal religion, however I do believe in a formal creator, an "Architect of the Universe" if you will. I think the argument that there is not a grand creator is insane but I also think the argument FOR a grand creator is insane too (because then you can say who created the Creator? and so forth). I think the TRUTH is far more grande and fantastic then we will ever learn in our current existence, I do hope that when we die we find out though, where I can go like, "AHHHH, so THAT's how everything really works!"

 

On the flood issue, from my understanding, the last Ice Age ended around 20,000 years ago. There have been a few "mini-ice ages" in-between, technically we still are in an ice age, but right now in the stage where the ice has been retracted. It is believed that about 20,000 years ago, as the ice began to melt in huge quantities, there was MASSIVE flooding in many areas, and this led people to believe that the entire planet was flooding, which some believe is likely why you find the story of a great flood in so many different cultures all over the world. Some of the seas, for example, if you go under them you find beaches, as they flooded into what they currently are many thousands of years ago.

And to Joebiz...fear as it is used in the Bible, I don't think the root of that word as it was translated means "fear" as it is commonly used today...I think the root word had to do with reverence...I'm not 100% certain on that, but I think that's what I remember...and well said on the other stuff!

 

If I remember from Sunday school, Fear was translated from "extreme awe in reverence" I don't really know what reverence means, it's not a concept I can get my head around. Reverence and fear are something that "religion" probably stole and tweaked for their own nefarious purpose.

 

 

I would say I am moslty with D. Wiggs on belief in formal religion, however I do believe in a formal creator, an "Architect of the Universe" if you will. I think the argument that there is not a grand creator is insane but I also think the argument FOR a grand creator is insane too (because then you can say who created the Creator? and so forth). I think the TRUTH is far more grande and fantastic then we will ever learn in our current existence, I do hope that when we die we find out though, where I can go like, "AHHHH, so THAT's how everything really works!"

 

On the flood issue, from my understanding, the last Ice Age ended around 20,000 years ago. There have been a few "mini-ice ages" in-between, technically we still are in an ice age, but right now in the stage where the ice has been retracted. It is believed that about 20,000 years ago, as the ice began to melt in huge quantities, there was MASSIVE flooding in many areas, and this led people to believe that the entire planet was flooding, which some believe is likely why you find the story of a great flood in so many different cultures all over the world. Some of the seas, for example, if you go under them you find beaches, as they flooded into what they currently are many thousands of years ago.

 

 

It's interesting how you hold a belief you know to be insane! At least you recognize it though!!

I think both the arguments for and against a creator both make sense and do not make sense. Ultimately I think the real truth is neither, that it is something beyond our understanding altogether right now. I think it sounds a bit crazy to say a creator "created" the matter of the universe and wrote the laws of physics, compressed everything in the beginning, then let it all expand as the "Big Bang," and I think it sounds equally crazy to say that in the beginning, everything was compressed and that's that, no one had to create all that matter and write the laws of physics. The supreme Truth I think is something far more fantastic. Just my view though.

 

And speaking of physics: We can understand quantum mechanics and gravity and the electromagnetic field from a quantitative, strictly mathematical point-of-view just fine, but from a qualitative point of view, we have no understanding just WHAT the electromagnetic force is, or WHAT gravity is per se. But there is an ultimate truth, just beyond our understanding right now.

I think both the arguments for and against a creator both make sense and do not make sense. Ultimately I think the real truth is neither, that it is something beyond our understanding altogether right now. I think it sounds a bit crazy to say a creator "created" the matter of the universe and wrote the laws of physics, compressed everything in the beginning, then let it all expand as the "Big Bang," and I think it sounds equally crazy to say that in the beginning, everything was compressed and that's that, no one had to create all that matter and write the laws of physics. The supreme Truth I think is something far more fantastic. Just my view though.

 

And speaking of physics: We can understand quantum mechanics and gravity and the electromagnetic field from a quantitative, strictly mathematical point-of-view just fine, but from a qualitative point of view, we have no understanding just WHAT the electromagnetic force is, or WHAT gravity is per se. But there is an ultimate truth, just beyond our understanding right now.

 

 

I have to go for the evening, I will expound later tomorrow; however, think about this tonight: The explanation is most likely very simple; for any explanation that is hugely grandioso, etc. simply leaves more UNEXPLAINED than explained.

 

there are some very famous and good arguments (starting with Aquinas) about the grand creator and you have already touched on some of the problems with it. More tomorrow!

I have to go for the evening, I will expound later tomorrow; however, think about this tonight: The explanation is most likely very simple; for any explanation that is hugely grandioso, etc. simply leaves more UNEXPLAINED than explained.

 

there are some very famous and good arguments (starting with Aquinas) about the grand creator and you have already touched on some of the problems with it. More tomorrow!

 

intresting to hear read what comes tommorow. I have some gear too. As far as quantum physics I learned alot from my understanding of schrodingers cat which I read in 8 th grade. I hardly understood much at that age but came away with an certain understanding of why.

I have always been your leader.

 

My leader? That will never happen. I am not having a go at you because I quite like you, must stress again NOT as a leader!

 

You come across as a nice guy, quite articulate but I am sorry to say I don't think you are leader material, you would bore your troops to death by over analysing everything

 

What are you going to do once you are done with peeling and overanalysing every layer of the onion ?

 

If I was ever going to come head to head with you in business I would have a field day, you are to hot headed and you always think you are right, it would be like taking candy from a baby.

I don't need a leader but f I was to pick one I would want somebody that's cool, calm and collected.

 

More bad use for you unfortunately most philosophers wear mandals

 

If you going to have a go at me brother please use layman's terms I am sick of using the dictionary to interpret your posts

We might not agree on the "bail out on your mortgage" thing but you always speak with so much wisdom

I also suspected D wants to be "it" when it comes to these discussions hence me willing to suggest his pontification and call him our "leader"

 

Thanks Fortis, its something to do with being middle aged, plus I have a dirty secret, see below.

 

I do specialize in Philosophy of Religion; I plan on teaching it at University some day; hence, why I love to talk about it. I enjoy helping people to either (a) see the error of their ways or ( learn to justify their own beliefs for there is nothing worse than someone who clings to a belief yet cannot justify it in any way. that's just superstition. That, and when you get bright people together, bright questions are raised and it helps me further solidify and better my positions as a philosopher.

 

Lord over my own subforum you say... ..........

 

Believe it or not Wiggs, I ALMOST followed the same career path as you, majored in philosophy, then applied for a scholorship to master the subject at the University of Edinbourgh, which by the grace of god, I missed the cut.

 

Your quest to enlighten the world is a fool's errand, you are chasing windmills..... humans are fundamentally animals, not logic machines, we have endocrine systems spitting out a shitload of hormones, some that cause us to love, fear(regarding religion, fear of death is the biggie), hate, trust, believe and act on instinctial/emotional levels; not on rationality. Thats never gonna change, so religion, superstition, shamonism, veganism, etc will always be around. The best that can be hoped for is a society where people are free to believe what they want, not be forced adhere to religion, veganism, or any other faith based belief system.

 

So live and let live, and provided that no one forces you to believe in their faith...... NEVER knock a person's religion. Respect!

Your quest to enlighten the world is a fool's errand, you are chasing windmills..... humans are fundamentally animals, not logic machines, we have endocrine systems spitting out a shitload of hormones, some that cause us to love, fear(regarding religion, fear of death is the biggie), hate, trust, believe and act on instinctial/emotional levels; not on rationality. Thats never gonna change, so religion, superstition, shamonism, veganism, etc will always be around. The best that can be hoped for is a society where people are free to believe what they want, not be forced adhere to religion, veganism, or any other faith based belief system.

 

So live and let live, and provided that no one forces you to believe in their faith...... NEVER knock a person's religion. Respect!

 

In my 4 years of religiously reading and contributing on LP this is the best post I've red by far

My exact views on the subject, I wish I were able to be as eloquent as you are and get my thoughts on paper; I am going to print this out and save it just in case LP crashes again

 

There is so much wisdom and maturity in this post, on so many levels you are a very accomplished individual Mr.Vroom and my respect for you just went sky high.

 

 

There is only one truth; whether we know it or even can know it. It doesn't matter how mundane or important the question, there is only one truth. Trust me on that one.

 

AND the truth is Miami is #1........................

So live and let live, and provided that no one forces you to believe in their faith...... NEVER knock a person's religion. Respect!

 

Herein lies a problem. Being told that you are the wrong religion or that you'll go to some hell or are a sinner simply for not following someones religion keeps me from this. If people would believe their own fairy tales and then keep them to themselves that'd be fine. Live and let die. When you force my life to be altered by forcing me to celebrate your holidays or being inconvenienced by your holidays then there's a problem.

Your quest to enlighten the world is a fool's errand, you are chasing windmills..... humans are fundamentally animals, not logic machines, we have endocrine systems spitting out a shitload of hormones, some that cause us to love, fear(regarding religion, fear of death is the biggie), hate, trust, believe and act on instinctial/emotional levels; not on rationality. Thats never gonna change, so religion, superstition, shamonism, veganism, etc will always be around. The best that can be hoped for is a society where people are free to believe what they want, not be forced adhere to religion, veganism, or any other faith based belief system.

 

So live and let live, and provided that no one forces you to believe in their faith...... NEVER knock a person's religion. Respect!

 

We have a winner!

 

There is so much wisdom and maturity in this post, on so many levels you are a very accomplished individual Mr.Vroom and my respect for you just went sky high.

 

Again,

Herein lies a problem. Being told that you are the wrong religion or that you'll go to some hell or are a sinner simply for not following someones religion keeps me from this. If people would believe their own fairy tales and then keep them to themselves that'd be fine. Live and let die. When you force my life to be altered by forcing me to celebrate your holidays or being inconvenienced by your holidays then there's a problem.

 

What would you suggest? We get rid of ALL holidays then?! Then even more people complain. It cant be perfect but I dont see how giving you a day off is FORCING you to celebrate the holiday.

What would you suggest? We get rid of ALL holidays then?! Then even more people complain. It cant be perfect but I dont see how giving you a day off is FORCING you to celebrate the holiday.

 

I don't have a solution. The Christmas time holidays are what they are and people have adapted to it. I do have a gripe with Easter.

 

Giving me a day off is basically taking money from me. I'd rather choose when I take a day off since I'm never given a day off. A day off for me is basically being forced to not make any money for that day.

 

So maybe the solution would be to allow a certain amount of holidays for personal use and being to delve them out at you choose.

Herein lies a problem. Being told that you are the wrong religion or that you'll go to some hell or are a sinner simply for not following someones religion keeps me from this. If people would believe their own fairy tales and then keep them to themselves that'd be fine. Live and let die.

 

 

My favorite example is a good friend of mine who is a devout Christian, goes to church all the time, most of his friends are from church, etc.

 

He tells me if you don't "give yourself" to god and give up certain things and whatever, you will not go to heaven. He says you're allowed to give yourself to him and he will accept you whenever you are ready.

 

So I ask him, is a convicted murderer or rapist who gives himself to god above myself or most people who have never done such horrible acts and have not given themselves to god?? And his answer, while not proud of it is:

 

"Yes".

 

My leader? That will never happen. I am not having a go at you because I quite like you, must stress again NOT as a leader!

 

You come across as a nice guy, quite articulate but I am sorry to say I don't think you are leader material, you would bore your troops to death by over analysing everything

 

What are you going to do once you are done with peeling and overanalysing every layer of the onion ?

 

If I was ever going to come head to head with you in business I would have a field day, you are to hot headed and you always think you are right, it would be like taking candy from a baby.

I don't need a leader but f I was to pick one I would want somebody that's cool, calm and collected.

 

More bad use for you unfortunately most philosophers wear mandals

 

If you going to have a go at me brother please use layman's terms I am sick of using the dictionary to interpret your posts

Hopefully this is easy enough to understand! I will preface what I say by stating that I like you, so you should take no offense to what I say.

I have always been an excellent leader because of my ability to analyze and make very quick, rational decisions free from any emotion. People flock to that.

The reason I have all of the things I do is the fact I never lose my cool; and, consequently, the cooler I get, the more aggitated the other person gets and it becomes, as you eloquently put it, like taking candy from a baby.

EVERYONE thinks they are always right; NO ONE holds a view they think is wrong; that would be lunacy!

I appreciate your high opinion of your business accumen; you simply massively underestimate mine.

Also, I have never met or known any philosopher who would be caught dead in mandals, but that's just me!

Your quest to enlighten the world is a fool's errand, you are chasing windmills..... humans are fundamentally animals, not logic machines, we have endocrine systems spitting out a shitload of hormones, some that cause us to love, fear(regarding religion, fear of death is the biggie), hate, trust, believe and act on instinctial/emotional levels; not on rationality. Thats never gonna change, so religion, superstition, shamonism, veganism, etc will always be around. The best that can be hoped for is a society where people are free to believe what they want, not be forced adhere to religion, veganism, or any other faith based belief system.

 

So live and let live, and provided that no one forces you to believe in their faith...... NEVER knock a person's religion. Respect!

In black and white terms, of course trying to enlighten the world is foolish!! You will never convince a meaningful percentage of people let alone everyone! However, if EVERYONE took that approach, humans would never evolve. People have to try. It's the voter's paradox. Any one person has no rational reason for voting (the costs always outweigh the potential benefit); however, if no one voted, we would all be screwed. Knowledge is the only real 'quest' that are species has for ourselves. Propigating the species is for future generations; knowledge is for us. It's why Socrates called it "The Good".

 

Whilst your conclusion (i.e., never knock a person's religion) is good-hearted and well-meaning, your prerequisite can never be met. People are ALWAYS forcing their religion on 'you' because it forms who they are as people and what they believe.

We knock people's opinion on just about EVERYTHING (e.g., food, women, cars, etc.) because they are beliefs; why would religion be different? The problem is that people have built a shield around religious beliefs when they are the ones that need 'knocked' the MOST because of the weight they carry.

 

At Ohio State (and most every university), you are essentially forced to follow everything Christian. How? Because, if you want off for Yom Kippur, you can take off; however, NO ONE else does. You don't get hit with an unexcused abscense, BUT, you are now 5% behind the entire class and now have to work extra hard to make up the work. Do Christians have to do this? Of course not, because the school CLOSES for their holidays. Either you close for EVERYONE'S holidays (and have a lot less school!) or you close for NONE. The simple fact Christmas is a FEDERAL holiday should tell you all you need to know.

 

What would you suggest? We get rid of ALL holidays then?! Then even more people complain. It cant be perfect but I dont see how giving you a day off is FORCING you to celebrate the holiday.

Perfect example. Most businesses in the US are closed (or have very limited hours) on Sunday because it's the sabbath to Christians. Well, if you're a devout jew, then Saturday is the day you can't do anything. This means, you have to do whatever most people would do on the weekend, during the work week because your entire weekend is 'shot'. That is how holidays FORCE religion on other people.

 

My favorite example is a good friend of mine who is a devout Christian, goes to church all the time, most of his friends are from church, etc.

 

He tells me if you don't "give yourself" to god and give up certain things and whatever, you will not go to heaven. He says you're allowed to give yourself to him and he will accept you whenever you are ready.

 

So I ask him, is a convicted murderer or rapist who gives himself to god above myself or most people who have never done such horrible acts and have not given themselves to god?? And his answer, while not proud of it is:

 

"Yes".

 

 

I know! By Christians' own admission, you should just live a life of sin and then repent on your deathbed.

Moving on...

 

 

 

"Lord, I have a problem."

 

"What's the problem, Adam?", God replies.

 

"Lord, I know you created me and have provided for me and surrounded me with this beautiful garden and all of these wonderful animals, but I'm just not happy"

 

"Why is that, Adam?", comes the reply from the heavens.

 

"Lord, I know you created this place for me, with all this lovely food and all of the beautiful animals, but I am lonely."

 

"Well Adam, in that case I have the perfect solution. I shall create a 'woman' for you."

 

"What's a 'woman', Lord?"

 

"This 'woman' will be the most intelligent, sensitive, caring, and beautiful creature I have ever created. She will be so intelligent that she can figure out what you want before you want it. She will be so sensitive and caring that she will know your every mood and how to make you happy. Her beauty will rival that of the heavens and earth. She will unquestioningly care for your every need and desire. She will be the perfect companion for you.", replies the heavenly voice.

 

"Sounds great."

 

"She will be, but this is going to cost you, Adam."

 

"How much will this 'woman' cost me Lord?", Adam replies.

 

"She'll cost you your right arm, your right leg, an eye, an ear, and your left testicle."

 

Adam ponders this for some time, with a look of deep thought and concern on his face. Finally Adam says to God:

 

"Ehhh, what can I get for a rib?""