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" and you are HIGH thinking there was any print of the difference to 100mph being 2 seconds.. "

 

Then I am high Allan.......

 

untitled.JPG

 

Auto Sport DD...

 

2.jpg

 

 

Euro 0-100 differentiations against US no wing;

 

1.4s

1.0s (with wing)

2.0s

1.8s

 

 

This is well off tack now Allan, the argument is not between the two stock cars anyway. Simply that your car would not have been 100hp over and above and/or much faster than a well set up DD QV, and all the derogatory put-down's wont change that.

 

Sorry.

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Allan, do you happen to have the program info for the Electromotive setup you did for your car? I am going to use a TEC 3R on the one I am building now and any info you could give me would be a great help.

I did a a TEC 1 on a Jag years ago, and at one time had everything I did written down, things like TOG/MAP, ign. etc, etc. I cannot find any of that info now, have no idea where I put it. If I could find it, that would give me a good starting point on the Countach setup.

Chadbourn Bolles

 

 

 

 

Mods on my car consisted of taking off the U.S. bumpers ( good 50lb savings), replacing the entire Bosch Cis injection system ( from memory that saved close to 50lbs) with an Electromotive electronic fuel injection , replacing the distributor with distributorless ignition, K=N filters, deleting the cats and a hand fabbed lightweight exhaust.. We estimated the power gain at OVER 100Hp, and it felt it, car was night and day..

 

 

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" and you are HIGH thinking there was any print of the difference to 100mph being 2 seconds.. "

 

Then I am high Allan.......

 

untitled.JPG

 

Auto Sport DD...

 

2.jpg

 

 

Euro 0-100 differentiations against US no wing;

 

1.4s

1.0s (with wing)

2.0s

1.8s

 

 

This is well off tack now Allan, the argument is not between the two stock cars anyway. Simply that your car would not have been 100hp over and above and/or much faster than a well set up DD QV, and all the derogatory put-down's wont change that.

 

Sorry.

 

Going back to youre being high, in your Euro wingless vs U.S winged tirade, using your Sport Motor test as an example . According to you the Euro version is almost 2 seconds faster to 100mph... Yet 0-60 they are seperated by tenths.... by 100mph close to 2 seconds :eusa_think: but in the 1/4 mile ( 400M) they are seperated by a few 1/10s and BOTH hitting 111mph.... So 0-111... they are sperated by 3/10s.. So in your theoretical race example 0-60 the Euro version would be ahead slightly.. by 100mph the Euro version would be miles ahead..... but at 101mph the Euro version hits a HUGE wall, allowing the U.S Version to make up those miles and virtually tie the Euro version to 111 mph... :eusa_think:

 

 

No there are certain facts that remain... The Euro Version is SLIGHTLY quicker. The Euro cars tested are virtually all wingless, U.S cars winged.. But the biggest difference is that the Lambo factory did not have U.S. press cars in those times. The cars tested in the U.S were for the most part privately owned, hence not subject to the beating the Euro cars were.. But most of all, the europeen way of testing at the time was primitive at best (many used stopwatches ie FASTLANE).. And last but not least it is a well known fact that the factory always provided the BEST running car it had , tweaked beyond even Euro retail standard cars for Euro testing..

 

Now go back to researching what happens to cars when they not only lose weight, but add modern fuel injection ,timing technology and free exhausts.... Oh maybe you want to ask Jalpa Mike how much better his car ran than stock just with his miniscule mods..

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Allan, do you happen to have the program info for the Electromotive setup you did for your car? I am going to use a TEC 3R on the one I am building now and any info you could give me would be a great help.

I did a a TEC 1 on a Jag years ago, and at one time had everything I did written down, things like TOG/MAP, ign. etc, etc. I cannot find any of that info now, have no idea where I put it. If I could find it, that would give me a good starting point on the Countach setup.

Chadbourn Bolles

 

 

 

 

Mods on my car consisted of taking off the U.S. bumpers ( good 50lb savings), replacing the entire Bosch Cis injection system ( from memory that saved close to 50lbs) with an Electromotive electronic fuel injection , replacing the distributor with distributorless ignition, K=N filters, deleting the cats and a hand fabbed lightweight exhaust.. We estimated the power gain at OVER 100Hp, and it felt it, car was night and day..

Im sorry Chad, I did that car like 15 years ago and I dont have any of that info... There is a guy who used to post here, LargoHome who did his Ct with Electromotive, and also Dennis has his QV with Electromotive. Maybe you can contact him? I tried Largohome like 6 months ago and never heard back..

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And Stoneyman... Looking past the 0-100 numbers, using the Car and Driver U.S test and the Sport Auto And Sport Motor tests you quoted..

 

0-110 for the U.S cars shows 12.9, the Euro car to 111 shows 13.0

 

0-120 for the U.S car shows 16.6, the Euro car to 124 shows 17.00 ....

 

 

Pretty much identical times for winged vs non winged, heavier vs lighter.... :eusa_think: :eusa_think: :eusa_think:

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Peter Dron Fast Lane test:

 

"The acceleration figures were recorded with the fifth wheel and calibrated electronic recorder which is fully trustable"

 

You are referring to the 70's style kilometre post TOP SPEED timing method (which of course is dubious)....not acceleration figures, and for the record it was not a factory car.

 

 

Once more, the issue is NOT the difference between US and DD cars....but your car (100+hp) and well set-up DD's.

 

As a rule, of course, I totally agree with FI over carbs, it's a no brainer today (except in Nascar !?)....but the early Bosch systems designed off the 5000S (not QV) were primitive at best......that's why the cars to have had the Webber carbs....at that time the masters of engineering. Tricky, yes, but if well set-up....perfect, and with out a doubt...better. :icon_mrgreen:

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Peter Dron Fast Lane test:

 

"The acceleration figures were recorded with the fifth wheel and calibrated electronic recorder which is fully trustable"

 

You are referring to the 70's style kilometre post TOP SPEED timing method (which of course is dubious)....not acceleration figures, and for the record it was not a factory car.

 

 

Once more, the issue is NOT the difference between US and DD cars....but your car (100+hp) and well set-up DD's.

 

As a rule, of course, I totally agree with FI over carbs, it's a no brainer today (except in Nascar !?)....but the early Bosch systems designed off the 5000S (not QV) were primitive at best......that's why the cars to have had the Webber carbs....at that time the masters of engineering. Tricky, yes, but if well set-up....perfect, and with out a doubt...better. :icon_mrgreen:

 

 

LOL... You wanna go against me about Countach facts and figures? :lol2: Im like a walking encyclopedia for the car since I was 13 years old... Ive forgotten more than you know about the car...

 

You CONVENIENTLY forgot to include this part of the article you decided to cut and paste from....

 

"The 190 mph top speed recorded by Fast Lane was very unbelievable. For some reasons, Peter Dron measured it by a controversial method - the Italy's Autostrada highway has a "Kilometer Post" between every kilometer, he travelled at top speed in the Countach's passenger seat, pressed the stop watch in his hand when the car was passing a post, then press again at the next post, and the speed could be calculated by dividing the distance travelled by the time took ! Measured again in the opposite direction and he got the two-way top speed average of 190.1 mph !! Obviously, we cannot trust this human-dependable test method, especially when his data was so much faster than others had ever recorded"

 

As for that Countach also not being from the factory... It wasnt, it belonged to an Ex F1 driver... and if you know the car youd know it was Specially Tuned just for him by the factory... This has been documented on several occasions..

 

The reality is that both cars tuned well are extremely close... In those days the tests where HIGHLY suspect, especially the euro ones.. Euro magazines had far more access to the cars, then did the U.S. . The DD's biggest advantage over a U.S car is more than likely not power, but weight.. I know you love the CT, and so do I , but just like this you have been known to also think that your CT could run with a 993 Turbo to 100mph (not on its best day) Diablos etc... I advise you to dump your carbs, and go EFI... Youll go faster and then know what I am talking about :icon_thumleft:

 

And last but not least...My Ct would destroy a DD Ct :eusa_dance:

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If someone wants to lend me their VBox for a few days, I would be happy to run some times off my car. I won't do standing start runs, but I can do all the roll on stuff anyone could ask for. Might lend some perspective. My car is ultimately somewhere in between Allans car, and a standard USA spec injected QV.

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If someone wants to lend me their VBox for a few days, I would be happy to run some times off my car. I won't do standing start runs, but I can do all the roll on stuff anyone could ask for. Might lend some perspective. My car is ultimately somewhere in between Allans car, and a standard USA spec injected QV.

Pm me your info and ill be glad to send to you..

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I just wanted to thank everyone for posting those magizine articles. I got a big kick out of reading the comments people made about the Countach in the years past.

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A very important aspect mentioned by Allan is that in europe, there was presscars. And as usual at Lamborghini, they was well prepared (who doesnt remember the Miura that started to lift it nose over a crest onto a freeway? Bob Wallace later admitted that that particular car ( a press car) was HIGHLY tuned to impress testers).

 

The carbed cars would probably turn out more power at the top, but overall, the FI system should deliver better results overall and as such give better power longer down in the revs where the power is just as important to deliver good acseleration times. And the FI was probably strangeled at top to comply with US emissions regulation at the time and not working at its best, but at its cleanest. But freeing up the system would and should be easier to do than tuning carbs that allready probably was set as effective as possible to free up some power. Allans car AFTER tuning might not have complied with regulations.. I too think that getting a FI system done right would outperforme a well carbed one. There is a reason for all the injectionsystems on the market today.

 

On the subject of FI versus big Webers: On the 1986 Aston Martin V8 Zagato, they ditched FI in favor of Weber carbs to achive the highest possible number of hp....

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As for that Countach also not being from the factory... It wasnt, it belonged to an Ex F1 driver... and if you know the car youd know it was Specially Tuned just for him by the factory... This has been documented on several occasions..

 

true: that QV carbed is the famous Pierluigi Martini red QV no wing

it had a special engine and is known to be quite a bit faster than regular cars

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true: that QV carbed is the famous Pierluigi Martini red QV no wing

it had a special engine and is known to be quite a bit faster than regular cars

:icon_thumleft: THANK YOU!

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A very important aspect mentioned by Allan is that in europe, there was presscars. And as usual at Lamborghini, they was well prepared (who doesnt remember the Miura that started to lift it nose over a crest onto a freeway? Bob Wallace later admitted that that particular car ( a press car) was HIGHLY tuned to impress testers).

 

The carbed cars would probably turn out more power at the top, but overall, the FI system should deliver better results overall and as such give better power longer down in the revs where the power is just as important to deliver good acseleration times. And the FI was probably strangeled at top to comply with US emissions regulation at the time and not working at its best, but at its cleanest. But freeing up the system would and should be easier to do than tuning carbs that allready probably was set as effective as possible to free up some power. Allans car AFTER tuning might not have complied with regulations.. I too think that getting a FI system done right would outperforme a well carbed one. There is a reason for all the injectionsystems on the market today.

 

On the subject of FI versus big Webers: On the 1986 Aston Martin V8 Zagato, they ditched FI in favor of Weber carbs to achive the highest possible number of hp....

 

I dont know if my car would of passed emissions as we did take off all the catalytic converters.. But the old CIS injection was extremely archaic and inefficient.. Appart from the massive performance gains we got, the car idled better, started better, ran smoother, didnt have to idle at 3k during warmup, had much better gas mileage etc.. Entirely a night and day difference all around..

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Don't forget that the FI cars had also other camshafts and pistons. A Fi Qv can never hold on with a DD, I drove all of them.

 

I too think that getting a FI system done right would outperforme a well carbed one. There is a reason for all the injectionsystems on the market today.
A nowadays injection for sure but never with a contemporary FI like the Bosch, that thing had it's limit like the Weber. A K-Jetronic is a dynosaure of FI systems.

 

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A nowadays injection for sure but never with a contemporary FI like the Bosch, that thing had it's limit like the Weber. A K-Jetronic is a dynosaure of FI systems.

 

Absolutely, the Bosch was crap..

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993 TT and DD CT are virtually identical in performance, whether you like it or not Allan. The only car I have been with regularly for a period of a year or so virtually every weekend, as mentioned before. Agreed, there was no dropping the clutch starts, just from a roll and highways as you would call them. However, collectively maybe 40+ hours of driving side by side is evidence enough for me.

 

Whether you agree or not is irrelevant.....

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I have to migrate towards supporting Allen's argument here. I seem to have gotten myself into somewhat of a similiar argument to this on a Ferrari site. Fuel injection and carburetion can never be compared directly unless the rest of the engines parameters are the same.

 

The Countach FI uses milder cams and some claim lower compression ratios were also used. I have not researched the compression issue at this time, nor seen any documentation supporting that. However, both factors would contribute to lower HP and torque output. FI (420 HP) versuses carbed (455 or 465 HP) stated horspower ratings are only 35 - 45 HP in difference. How much of that difference is due to the camshaft's grind and the compression ratio difference?

 

We all know the Bosch Injection is an old constant flow injection system with limited feedback for mixture control compensation. It has some performance potential if a good technician is tweaking it's hardware and basic adjustments. Published material addressing this is available.

 

Install modern injection hardware along wirh a modern electronic ECM with real time feedback, a tuned exhaust system, and a cd ignition and real horsepower gains for the CT is simply a tune away. Drivability is up, horsepower is up, and adrenaline should have something else up.

 

How many new cars, econo boxes and/or ultimate performance vehicles and all those in between, are offered to us today with those sexy carbs? Since we can't get a new car with carbs, why do the new offerings now have such high HP ratings??

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993 TT and DD CT are virtually identical in performance, whether you like it or not Allan. The only car I have been with regularly for a period of a year or so virtually every weekend, as mentioned before. Agreed, there was no dropping the clutch starts, just from a roll and highways as you would call them. However, collectively maybe 40+ hours of driving side by side is evidence enough for me.

 

Whether you agree or not is irrelevant.....

A 993 TT has recorded 0-60 in the high 3sec range, 0-100 in the 8.8 second range and I hope you dont think a CT could run with one after that..

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Also, you act like no one knows their cars Allan.....I have had my CT for over a decade now......and drive it regularly.

I think you love your car, and are blinded by it, and maybe too many Cannonball Run screenings.. :icon_mrgreen:

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I have to migrate towards supporting Allen's argument here. I seem to have gotten myself into somewhat of a similiar argument to this on a Ferrari site. Fuel injection and carburetion can never be compared directly unless the rest of the engines parameters are the same.

 

The Countach FI uses milder cams and some claim lower compression ratios were also used. I have not researched the compression issue at this time, nor seen any documentation supporting that. However, both factors would contribute to lower HP and torque output. FI (420 HP) versuses carbed (455 or 465 HP) stated horspower ratings are only 35 - 45 HP in difference. How much of that difference is due to the camshaft's grind and the compression ratio difference?

 

We all know the Bosch Injection is an old constant flow injection system with limited feedback for mixture control compensation. It has some performance potential if a good technician is tweaking it's hardware and basic adjustments. Published material addressing this is available.

 

Install modern injection hardware along wirh a modern electronic ECM with real time feedback, a tuned exhaust system, and a cd ignition and real horsepower gains for the CT is simply a tune away. Drivability is up, horsepower is up, and adrenaline should have something else up.

 

How many new cars, econo boxes and/or ultimate performance vehicles and all those in between, are offered to us today with those sexy carbs? Since we can't get a new car with carbs, why do the new offerings now have such high HP ratings??

 

I never dynoed my Countach, but I look at what Lambo did with the Diablo. If the next iteration of lambo did not make the power that Lambo claimed, how did the Countach.. A 91-92 Diablo dynos stock around 385 rwhp.. Thats a car that was rated at 492Hp... Do you think that Lambo got better for later cars? Nope... 98 cars.. bone stock dynoed exactly the same.. What made them FEEL quicker was the shorter gears.. My 98 Diablo SV with full exhaust/headers/filters dynoed 416rwhp on Alexs Dyno.. Diablo 6.0s... Rated at 550hp.. dynoed 430rwhp... and as an eample Keiths JOTA, which according to Lambo was supposed to make 600Hp, made just under 450rwhp..

 

As for the Countach scenario, between euro and U.S., its quite possible that there really was no difference in power. If you look at real performance numbers of what seemed to be off the shelf cars, the difference was miniscule . Euro cars were run with straight pipes, U.S. cars had those shit catalytic converters.. Just taking the cats off the U.S. cars make a huge difference in power.. Now you have the weight issue were the U.S. cars weighed atleast 200lbs more than the Euro... I dont know exactly how much power taking the cats of a Countach was worth, but on a Diablo a good 35 hp TO THE WHEELS.. Id imagine that the CT system was less efficient, and atleast worth the same..

 

As I said before, inmo the Countach is king. Always will be, but Ostoneman you gotta be realistic.. You are the only one who still believes the 200mph claims.. :icon_mrgreen:

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NOPE.....

 

CT is slow(ish) after 130ish....never argued.

 

As for 993tt...false argument as the figures mentioned are max rev's, second gear dropping the clutch. turbos sending you into the horizon. The real figures were around 10s or a shade under with a perfect getaway.....

 

Normal driving, from a roll of say 20mph until 100mph or so...side by side and you will be surprised Allan...fact.

 

Lastly, have you heard some of the silly times achieved by stock 4 speed 930's to 60 by max revs and dropping the clutch.....

 

You cant touch turbo cars if this is how they are driven...but this isnt how they are driven.

 

 

And yes, I love may car.....with all its faults, and I dont claim it's capable of standing up to modern cars, it isnt, but it's still quick (for what it is) within its sweetspot...which is from a roll until 110 or so...

 

 

And as for the original discussion....if Valentino categorically states the FI cars were way off the euro cars, or 'not as they were designed to be it was such a shame' to be more acurate...then I go with him !!

 

 

And yes.....You be you and i'll be me, its just a matter of style..... :icon_mrgreen:

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