Rhershey

I should have looked at this car in person or had a PPi done. The things that Tony should have said about this car he didn't. In all of the ads that I have that he advertised this car for sale it never said that this car needs a complete restoration. This car ran so bad coming off the hauler that it almost had to be pushed off of it.

Tony can twist things around anyway that he wants to in order to caver his ass.

The fact remains he grossly misrepresented this car to me. I am not in anyway saying that I am not at fault for not looking at this car. You guys have only looked a few real pictures of the car that I have posted. You should see it in person. This is not a matter of opinion of the condition of the car it is real bad.

 

 

so how was it in my video it was driving fine...?

And to top it all off you are trying to make Tony look like an asshole.. I know your type Rhershey...Everyone always jumps on the wagon of a buyer.

98% of my comments have been supportive of Russell's case, but it looks like I should remind you guys that I don't know Russell, never met him, never saw the car, and was never contacted by him or anyone else to back his case. I had a brief but bad experience with Tony and I know others who came away miffed as well, and I know that it only takes two data points to constitute a trend. This case is just another data point on top of the points I already have. Yet Tony's reputation is still very much in his own hands. Maybe Tony is completely innocent and unknowing of how he is relating to customers, who knows. Maybe he's a crook, who knows.

 

I'm starting to think this should be water under the bridge. The arguments are all established -- noted. If Tony wants to keep moving forward, it would behoove him to focus on buying it back pronto since this is a different animal and a different market; i.e. not a Honda, let's think big picture. 'A few good thoughts in this thread as to how to go about that as fairly as possible. Would that set a precedent that Tony will take back any car he sells in the future and ruin his business? I doubt it, and there's nothing to say that this wouldn't blow over after all parties went their separate ways (as well as nothing I know of legally to require him to do so). As a salesman, Tony rolls the dice on making customers happy anyway, but the probabilities are good enough to work with since people buying Countachs genuinely want them rather than see them returned to a seller. For Tony, it's just a matter of keeping business flowing.

Seller has zero obligation to buy it back especially after this thread. This transaction was doomed from the beginning and there’s no way to make both parties whole. If the buyer had bought it to keep and to correct it back to what it should be, maybe it would have worked out better. The buyer came in with the intentions of flipping it to make a quick buck and he tried to be cheap about it by not paying for a ppi. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn’t. Let’s say I bought a house to flip and passed on paying for a home inspection and in this case, not even bothering to look at the house. If the house turned out to have a bad foundation, I would not expect any sympathy nor would I go on the internet whining for some.

Someone above said price doesn't always represent condition. He was looking for a bargain.. If price doesn't represent condition, what does it represent???? Miles and condition.. That is everything price represents..

 

I myself have bought a car, had problems with it right away, and paid for the issues myself.. Why? because I knew the price I paid was a reflection of the risk I was willing to take..

 

If you went 3 weeks and then your car had an issue you expected someone to help out? Look things can go bad overnight on anything.. These are mechanical and electrical peices of equipment..

 

My front diff started howling the third time I drove it.. Even though the second I purchased the car I took it straight to Steve Harris Imports and had all the fluids flushed and changed.. I accepted the issue.. Maybe the previous owner new it was going out.. Maybe he didn't..., but I knew what I paid for the car and paying that price I had to accept some possible liabilities..

 

I agree.. the seller should have probably been more clear, but there is an ass for every seat.. Any what I mean by that is 1 mans trash is another mans treasure.. this post could have just as easily went the other way..He could have been the guy that was tickled pink for buying the turd for $83000... I have guys that beg for the turds, and I have guys that pick them appart and want me to fix everything.. I tell those guys the Used Truck factory quit making perfect trucks you sound like you need to buy new..This is a difficult situation to be in for both parties.. Rhershey straight up said he was wanting a car he could do the work on himself.. He new he was buying a work in progress..

Someone above said price doesn't always represent condition. He was looking for a bargain.. If price doesn't represent condition, what does it represent???? Miles and condition.. That is everything price represents..

The price represents solely what the seller is willing trade ownership for and everything else is an extension of that (be it a poorly- or well-informed notion on either party's end).

Condition does not always equal price, price is influenced by a multitude of factors, it represents perceived, required or desired value by a vendor influenced by his or her position and expenditure to bring said product to market, price is further subjected to market acceptance based on another host of factors, rarity, exclusivity, desirability, emotion, pride etc etc those are some of the many many factors which determine price, things/items which aren't sold based on their condition still carry a price factor, how would you determine price in this situation, rhetorical question because I am done with this

 

 

My point was, a description should be true regardless of the price that is being asked. It shouldn't be....well I could ask $90k for this car so I'll say this in the description OR I'll sell it for $80k and since I, as the seller, think the buyer is getting a good deal I'll just omit some of this info and defects.

Seller has zero obligation to buy it back especially after this thread. This transaction was doomed from the beginning and there's no way to make both parties whole...Let's say I bought a house to flip and passed on paying for a home inspection and in this case, not even bothering to look at the house. If the house turned out to have a bad foundation, I would not expect any sympathy nor would I go on the internet whining for some.

 

Two points.

1. Like I posted before, where, if anywhere, is the distinction between as-is and significantly not-as-described? My example was, you buy a car online without seeing it in person. The seller says it's red. The car is delivered and it's green. Is it your fault that you didn't see it in person to make sure the seller was telling the truth about something as basic as the color? Just like a seller shouldn't have to hand-hold a buyer, a buyer should expect some degree of reasonable-ness from a seller. Granted I don't know how to quantify this distinction or draw this line of what is reasonable, but that's the challenge of law.

 

2. I don't think anyone here has called it an obligation for the seller to buy it back. It just might be a good idea. Laws have a way of obstructing effective decisions.

Between this thread and the wheels thread, I would personally think long and hard before buying something from Megachad as well...

Two points.

1. Like I posted before, where, if anywhere, is the distinction between as-is and significantly not-as-described? My example was, you buy a car online without seeing it in person. The seller says it's red. The car is delivered and it's green. Is it your fault that you didn't see it in person to make sure the seller was telling the truth about something as basic as the color? Just like a seller shouldn't have to hand-hold a buyer, a buyer should expect some degree of reasonable-ness from a seller. Granted I don't know how to quantify this distinction or draw this line of what is reasonable, but that's the challenge of law.

 

2. I don't think anyone here has called it an obligation for the seller to buy it back. It just might be a good idea. Laws have a way of getting in the way of effective decisions.

 

You guys are correct, the car was not represented quite the way it should be, but seriously, it wasn't represented as red and came green..the pictures clearly showed how big of a piece of shit the car was.. Has anyone ever bought something that looked like complete shit on the outside, looked like complete shit on the inside, and thought, hmmmm i bet it runs fantastic..

Between this thread and the wheels thread, I would personally think long and hard before buying something from Megachad as well...

The difference is, I call a turd a turd.. I sell them as turds.. I have learned to sell shit boxes that way to keep my integrity..I tell guys not to buy the shit box if they expect anything better than a problem waiting to happend.. I have agreed it should have been represented better, what I am trying to point out is that rhershey blinded himself. The seller can't be held 100% liable for stupidity.

The difference is, I call a turd a turd.. I sell them as turds.. I have learned to sell shit boxes that way to keep my integrity..I tell guys not to buy the shit box if they expect anything better than a problem waiting to happend.. I have agreed it should have been represented better, what I am trying to point out is that rhershey blinded himself. The seller can't be held 100% liable for stupidity.

 

I can definitely agree with that

The difference is, I call a turd a turd.. I sell them as turds.. I have learned to sell shit boxes that way to keep my integrity..I tell guys not to buy the shit box if they expect anything better than a problem waiting to happend.. I have agreed it should have been represented better, what I am trying to point out is that rhershey blinded himself. The seller can't be held 100% liable for stupidity.

If you sell a shit box as a shit box then you are OK. To sell something by not telling the truth about it and using the buyer beware attitude that is wrong. I was a complete fool for just going on what he said about the car, that does not give him a right to do what he did. He is 100% liable for the way he talked about the car it was in front of him to look at. I bought the car from his pictures and his word on the condition( stupidity on my end).

If you sell a shit box as a shit box then you are OK. To sell something by not telling the truth about it and using the buyer beware attitude that is wrong. I was a complete fool for just going on what he said about the car, that does not give him a right to do what he did. He is 100% liable for the way he talked about the car it was in front of him to look at. I bought the car from his pictures and his word on the condition( stupidity on my end).

Why don't you express 1 or 2 exact things that you feel were mis represented. If I was Tony I would feel you are being completely un reasonable asking to just buy the car back..

...the pictures clearly showed how big of a piece of shit the car was...

Now you're talkin' about how to draw that line, which is pretty tough to call. I might say yeah it's significant or at least worth revisiting, if the seller said it runs well/passed a full compression test/etc. and it "barely makes it off the truck" upon arrival, we might have a matter of contention there, but I'm not sure the "reasonable man" can make an assumption or write a law on the interior's condition being reflective of the engine's condition for example.

 

Has anyone ever bought something that looked like complete shit on the outside, looked like complete shit on the inside, and thought, hmmmm i bet it runs fantastic..

haha, not to be too argumentative, but yes, I have over the years.

Why don't you express 1 or 2 exact things that you feel were mis represented.

He dubbed the sound on the video of the car, to make it sound like it ran well. That is a big one.

If I was Tony I would feel you are being completely un reasonable asking to just buy the car back..

Even if Russell was the worst customer in the world and Tony was the most honest seller in the world, it's up to Tony to put out fires relating to his business if he expects to continue doing business, his fault or not. Those posts above about dealing at a retail level with customers are quite relevant. At some point, assuming Tony is an upstanding dude, he's got to seriously consider taking it back for long-term gains rather than winning battles today -- even with the risk that Tony thinks Russell is batshit crazy and will stuff it full of mashed potatoes. Or, both parties might be pleasantly surprised with each other, who knows.

He dubbed the sound on the video of the car, to make it sound like it ran well. That is a big one.

yes, now that if fucked up if he really did that.

Russell,

 

Here is the last Ebay ad:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/5000sFI-/12...forcev4exp=true

 

From the description:

 

"Showroom paint...

 

Always in perfect condition...

 

No leaks...

 

No smoke...

 

Runs and drives excellent...

 

Starts right up...

 

Fitted with very rare factory polished wheels and finished in a beautiful Merlot rosso over duel blk/red interior with just 36,954 one owner kilometers(22,962miles). Clean lines with no rear spoiler or after market sideskirts. Clean Carfax never in accident or damaged. Always garaged & serviced with a full documented history throughout its lifetime

"

 

 

 

Now, how the hell does this sound like the car that you ended up with? Is there anything there that says that this car is a rolling shitbox that needs a total restoration? Somehow the words showroom, excellent and perfect are not synonymous with the hunk of shit that you actually ended up with. And as far as the "never damaged" part goes, the restoration that car received caused far more damage than any accident could of.

 

How about this...

Two points.

1. Like I posted before, where, if anywhere, is the distinction between as-is and significantly not-as-described? My example was, you buy a car online without seeing it in person. The seller says it's red. The car is delivered and it's green. Is it your fault that you didn't see it in person to make sure the seller was telling the truth about something as basic as the color? Just like a seller shouldn't have to hand-hold a buyer, a buyer should expect some degree of reasonable-ness from a seller. Granted I don't know how to quantify this distinction or draw this line of what is reasonable, but that's the challenge of law.

 

There is no line to be draw. This is very simple black and white. Facts should be represented as such and the seller should not embellish: year, model, make, # cylinders, color, service records, etc. If any of these are misrepresented, the buyer can easily win in a court of law. Everything else is opinion (runs great, smooth, looks perfect, etc).

 

Maybe you can let the car run awhile and see if the smoking will clear out. I know of someone else that bought a car that the P.O. ran with the wrong firing order for quite some time. After it was fixed, it smoked quite a bit but eventually cleared out on its own.

 

Any chance you did a compression test on those suspect cylinders? One item that my friend pointed out when he first viewed the video of this car, was that when it started up, it didn't have that smooth "whirrrrrr" when normally cranking a V12. He was thinking that it might have been a sign of a bad cylinder or two causing uneven cranking. However, that part in the video was quick, and he thought maybe he was just being a bit paranoid.

 

Check it out at 0:19:

 

Car running without keys in the ignition...

Yes, it was a gross missrepresentation on the sellers end.. this goes to notice for buyers.. If you see a car that is plastered with mothers or mequiars detailer, but there are spots that still have dirt and grime on them, realize that dirt and grime probably won't come off.. the shifter knob was a good indicator of the rest of the interior condition. those seats are not original so that is another good indicator. they almost look vinyl.

 

If you see a video where it sounds like the car is running and the noise is the same from all angles, realize it is not the actual car running..

 

Tony, it's a shame bud...I tried sticking up for sellers, I can almost stick up for the photos because we all need to make equipment look as good as possible to get someone interested, but I can't stick up for the video and saying it runs great.. That is too bad.. I won't buy anything from you, I know that.

 

 

There is no line to be draw. This is very simple black and white... Everything else is opinion (runs great, smooth, looks perfect, etc).

I'm not so easily convinced. Someone trusts me to make big decisions with limited information that arrives in my lap through a fog, and I almost never encounter anything that is actually black & white once I start digging in...no matter how much we want simple absolutes for sanity. For every attorney that says it's simple will be another one saying it's not. I at least know that to be fairly consistent.

 

The problem with the video is that any reasonable person can watch it and still not pick up on these little clues that something is not quite right.

I really tried to make a deal with Tony including taking a hit on this car. I was willing to loose some money on the deal and call it a hard lesson. I got feed more lines of bs then you can imagine. You can ask Roy or Allan they will tell you that.

Both sides need to take some responsibility. Seller for misrepresentation on a video amongst others (however I doubt the video was the tipping point for the buyer deciding to buy), and the buyer for not doing his homework. Other community sites had talked about this car extensively in the past. The most memorable thread asked why there wasn’t an engine bay photo in the original ebay ad for this “special” motor. I look at this transaction and compare it to an out of state auctioned house flip gone wrong. It appears that it was bought to make a quick buck and flip, buyer took a gamble and lost. Time to accept some responsibility and move on.