Potential coup in Turkey underway.

Ah, binary thinking. The clear solution to geopolitical conflict.

It has caused ALOT of the radicalization in the islamic world you are seeing today.

 

Let me return your question then.

So you are saying the those interventions have caused NO Problems what´s so ever?

The US using alqiada against the russians has caused no problems?

Destabilizing local governments has caused no problems?

 

Enlighten me, I have nothing against learning something new, but it certainly has left that part of the world in a much worse state.

Don´t get me wrong, I am not strictly against interventions, but It could have been done so much better.

 

Hindsight is 20/20. Not saying we did it right or did it wrong, but my question for you is based on the information available at the time, what would you have done in that situation? Don't take this question as an attack; your response is fairly open-ended so I am curious as to how you believe the situation could/should have been handled. Please keep in mind that we can only see as far as the choices ahead of us, so giving the information and situation, at what origin point would you have done things differently?

 

Ah, binary thinking. The clear solution to geopolitical conflict.

 

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I'd pose the same question to you as well. What proposed solutions do you have for these situations?

Hindsight is 20/20. Not saying we did it right or did it wrong, but my question for you is based on the information available at the time, what would you have done in that situation? Don't take this question as an attack; your response is fairly open-ended so I am curious as to how you believe the situation could/should have been handled. Please keep in mind that we can only see as far as the choices ahead of us, so giving the information and situation, at what origin point would you have done things differently?

I don´t have the information that the offcials had.

 

My approach is more general and broad: Bombing people will create more problems than it solves.

 

If you really want to change regimes, societies, cultures you can only do it economically.

Show them why it is in their own self interest to be part of your agenda.

Fear and violence are only temporary solutions. Humans generally don´t bow to fear for the rest of their lives. They form resistance in one way or another(terrorism, suicide bombing and so on)

 

So in my mind, I have to assume that the officials were either ignorant or had other ulterior motives(profit, cultural/religious oppression).

I guess it is/was a combination of both.

 

However when joe shmuck(as we all are in here, so no offense meant to anybody) talks about bombing this and nuking that I can´t leave it uncommented because it is a destructive way of thinking. Desructive to mankind as a whole.

It has caused ALOT of the radicalization in the islamic world you are seeing today.

 

Let me return your question then.

So you are saying the those interventions have caused NO Problems what´s so ever?

The US using alqiada against the russians has caused no problems?

Destabilizing local governments has caused no problems?

 

Enlighten me, I have nothing against learning something new, but it certainly has left that part of the world in a much worse state.

Don´t get me wrong, I am not strictly against interventions, but It could have been done so much better.

 

I never made a statement about western intervention being good, I simply asked you a question which you mostly ignored other than to restate your point that "It has caused ALOT of the radicalization in the islamic world you are seeing today." My point was things like honor killings, stoning homosexuals to death, violently oppressing women, etc were around long before the west came knocking. Those are a just a couple of the serious issues facing that region, all based on a certain religion and not western influence.

 

In a perfect world, I would agree with Fortis that we should all just take care of our own and say "f&ck off" to the rest of the world, "your problems aren't my concern." If the Taliban or ISIS or whoever continues killing people in the ME for whatever twisted reason they conjure up, it's sad but it doesn't affect me personally on a deep level because my country has enough issues at home. When those radical bastards start coming to my country and killing innocents, you better believe I expect my country to get involved, right or wrong.

Islam has always been radical. For 1400 years Muslims have enslaved africans and europeans, RAPED and traded non-muslim women, murdered and pillaged those unbelievers who decided to resist, and extorted nonmuslims out of wealth and goods so their life and property would be spared. Their savagery spread across the middle east, north africa, spain, asia minor, india, and china. Learn about who this man Muhammad was FROM PRIMARY SOURCES and everything will be as clear as what the sun shines on.

The world is better off with America in a position of strength, something that erkel in the whitehouse doesn't believe in. Islam has and always will be a supremacist, imperialistic religion with the desire of world conquest. Their god promises it in the book they believe to be his verbatim words and Muslims have a track record of it. There is no time to pussyfoot around Islam. Its only strength they respond to and its only strength that shall be given to them. If any Muslim tries to bring that caliphate crap to the west, there will be a bullet to his head and to every bleeding heart lefty that apologizes for and defends this cult. A cult is exactly what this is. An ultimatum needs to be made to the Muslim community; either you're with us or you're not. No middle ground. No compromise. The world is sick of hearing about Islam's "contribution to peace" every fcuking day and if Muslims think that's too "islamophobic" to bring up, they can fcuk off and live in a country of their own.

Sounds all good, but you realise that all this hate just creates more hate(yeah, sounds silly doesn´t it)?

You do realise that the reason why islam has been so radicalized in the past decades(and no, before it was WAY less) is BECAUSE of all the intervention of the west and not despite?

Have you ever been to any of the middle eastern countries before alle the wars began(starting with the golf war).

 

 

But weve tried to fight it one skirmish at a time, instead of seriously fighting it... Which worked pretty good on the Nazis.

Islam has always been radical. For 1400 years Muslims have enslaved africans and europeans, RAPED and traded non-muslim women, murdered and pillaged those unbelievers who decided to resist, and extorted nonmuslims out of wealth and goods so their life and property would be spared. Their savagery spread across the middle east, north africa, spain, asia minor, india, and china. Learn about who this man Muhammad was FROM PRIMARY SOURCES and everything will be as clear as what the sun shines on.

 

You're describing virtually most cultures in human history Vikings, the Mongol Khans, and the Europeans have all done the exact same thing. My point being that here's the underlying danger in that way of thinking...It's very easy to single out a group, religion, ideology etc as being this extreme evil and repressive force...but you go back 1400 years to the present and Christians, socialists, (insert group here), have all done the same thing. There's no guarantee either that we won't shift back into doing those same things. In the 1930's in the US we had the eugenics laws passed in which we segregated and sterilized thousands of "undesirable people not fit to reproduce."

 

I'm not defending Islam as to not appear "islamaphobic" (which by the way what PC dickwad came up will of these BS phobias any way?), I just wish to illustrate that the "savagery" and "repressiveness," the main reasons people are citing we should wipe out an entire religion, are traits that are not unique to them and that we share. Do I think radical islam needs to be destroyed? Absolutely. Radicalized anything should be eliminated. But I also don't want to see our mentality shift to becoming more like a radicalized one in the process in order to do so.

 

Sadly, that may be the only answer at this point. In any case, there has been some excellent discussion here about these issues. It's always a privilege to see such different ideas and opinions all developing in a place. To me that is what freedom and liberty are about, and that's why I fear the western world is losing bit by bit as fear takes hold.

Differences of opinion.

 

 

Differences of opinion.

 

 

 

You have to keep something in mind... Most westerners have never HEARD of Ataturk, Let alone understand that Turkey, despite being predominantly muslim, has been a secular democracy for damned near 100 years now... Its still not where Id like to get locked up for smuggling hash (hows that for a midnight express reference?) but (until now at least) its not the typical theocratic shit-hole that most westerners think of when they start thinking about muslim dominated countries. If older people remember it at all, they remember it as a pawn in the cuban missle crisis... And younger people unfortunately just think, "I want a sammy".

 

Its geopolitical importance has been lost on a dumbed down society , but its a major fcuking cog in NATO. If we lose it, and I think thats almost a certainty now, the pieces may be falling into place for WW3.

You have to keep something in mind... Most westerners have never HEARD of Ataturk, Let alone understand that Turkey, despite being predominantly muslim, has been a secular democracy for damned near 100 years now... Its still not where Id like to get locked up for smuggling hash (hows that for a midnight express reference?) but (until now at least) its not the typical theocratic shit-hole that most westerners think of when they start thinking about muslim dominated countries. If older people remember it at all, they remember it as a pawn in the cuban missle crisis... And younger people unfortunately just think, "I want a sammy".

 

Its geopolitical importance has been lost on a dumbed down society , but its a major fcuking cog in NATO. If we lose it, and I think thats almost a certainty now, the pieces may be falling into place for WW3.

 

And to add to that...for our Armenian friends Turkey is the perpetrator of genocide...so it seems that they aren't so noble after all.

 

My guess is that WW3 is going to happen when the EU falls to pieces and Germany is left holding the bill. They will come to collect and there will be hell to pay.

You're describing virtually most cultures in human history Vikings, the Mongol Khans, and the Europeans have all done the exact same thing. My point being that here's the underlying danger in that way of thinking...It's very easy to single out a group, religion, ideology etc as being this extreme evil and repressive force...but you go back 1400 years to the present and Christians, socialists, (insert group here), have all done the same thing. There's no guarantee either that we won't shift back into doing those same things. In the 1930's in the US we had the eugenics laws passed in which we segregated and sterilized thousands of "undesirable people not fit to reproduce."

 

I'm not defending Islam as to not appear "islamaphobic" (which by the way what PC dickwad came up will of these BS phobias any way?), I just wish to illustrate that the "savagery" and "repressiveness," the main reasons people are citing we should wipe out an entire religion, are traits that are not unique to them and that we share. Do I think radical islam needs to be destroyed? Absolutely. Radicalized anything should be eliminated. But I also don't want to see our mentality shift to becoming more like a radicalized one in the process in order to do so.

 

Sadly, that may be the only answer at this point. In any case, there has been some excellent discussion here about these issues. It's always a privilege to see such different ideas and opinions all developing in a place. To me that is what freedom and liberty are about, and that's why I fear the western world is losing bit by bit as fear takes hold.

 

You bring something up that happened before beginning of civilization, it has no relevance now, thse savages have the same archaic mentality and way of thinking now, their believes do not fit those of the modern world which is fine providing you aren't bringing your crap in my own house, do it at your house, if you come in my house do as I say otherwise you are out.

 

There are things we can accept but there are things which aren't acceptable, things civilized beings shouldn't do, such as throwing acid in the eyes of your 15 year old girl for looking at a young boy who rode past on his bike, I can keep going if you want me.

 

We do not need to accept barbaric behavior from anyone. Organized religion is the root of all evil in this world, it preys on the weak and uneducated by instilling fear in their souls so it can control them.

 

Believe in whatever you want to believe, practice whatever you want to practice, as long as you physically don't harm anyone else, as long as you aren't forcefully trying to recruit others to your faith, build whatever places of worship you want to, I do not have any issues with you and anyone, practice peace, love and tolerance, it's that damn easy.

 

On that note Happy f*cking festivus to everybody! I am done with this crap! Need to concentrate on the new Huracan SL

You bring something up that happened before beginning of civilization, it has no relevance now, thse savages have the same archaic mentality and way of thinking now, their believes do not fit those of the modern world which is fine providing you aren't bringing your crap in my own house, do it at your house, if you come in my house do as I say otherwise you are out.

 

There are things we can accept but there are things which aren't acceptable, things civilized beings shouldn't do, such as throwing acid in the eyes of your 15 year old girl for looking at a young boy who rode past on his bike, I can keep going if you want me.

 

We do not need to accept barbaric behavior from anyone. Organized religion is the root of all evil in this world, it preys on the weak and uneducated by instilling fear in their souls so it can control them.

 

Believe in whatever you want to believe, practice whatever you want to practice, as long as you physically don't harm anyone else, as long as you aren't forcefully trying to recruit others to your faith, build whatever places of worship you want to, I do not have any issues with you and anyone, practice peace, love and tolerance, it's that damn easy.

 

On that note Happy f*cking festivus to everybody! I am done with this crap! Need to concentrate on the new Huracan SL

 

As per usual excellent post sir! I do agree with 95% of what you've said, I am all for "do what you want to do in your own house, as soon as you start f*ckin with my house there will be grave consequences."

 

The only statement I disagree with is that religion is the root of all evil...I'd say people are at that root. Any idea can be used for fear, control and for praying on the weak and uneducated. The whole cold war was fought under the guise of Capitalism vs Communism and there are many other examples in human history of it. At it's core religion is communal spirituality, which can be a great thing. But in the hands of bad people it does horrible things. Religion is an easy target, but it's far from the only idea people have used to kill each other. I myself am not a fan or part of any organized religion but am deeply spiritual, and I can see the great and amazing things religion can bring.

 

So about that Hurcan SL and Aventador SV and facelift...

Clearly, slaughtering, raping, pillaging, enslaving, limiting the rights of people, and subjugating them to lower classes of society are evil. If a religion pushes that towards people because they are not part of the tribe or belief system, that religion is absolutely evil. Muhammad did all of the above. He was absolutely evil. Islam is evil. Its time people admit it, confront it, and finally destroy it. Its a moral imperative for the survival of western civilization.

Turkey has our nukes? smh

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/19/politics/us-...coup/index.html

Turkey has our nukes? smh

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/19/politics/us-...coup/index.html

 

Remember I mentioned the cuban missile crisis?

Sounds all good, but you realise that all this hate just creates more hate(yeah, sounds silly doesn´t it)?

You do realise that the reason why islam has been so radicalized in the past decades(and no, before it was WAY less) is BECAUSE of all the intervention of the west and not despite?

 

Hate towards radical Muslims I do not believe can create more hate because they already hate us at an extreme degree. They want to slaughter and kill people for not believing in them, so if you then fight back at them, they want to slaughter and kill you. So what's the difference?

You're describing virtually most cultures in human history Vikings, the Mongol Khans, and the Europeans have all done the exact same thing. My point being that here's the underlying danger in that way of thinking...It's very easy to single out a group, religion, ideology etc as being this extreme evil and repressive force...but you go back 1400 years to the present and Christians, socialists, (insert group here), have all done the same thing. There's no guarantee either that we won't shift back into doing those same things. In the 1930's in the US we had the eugenics laws passed in which we segregated and sterilized thousands of "undesirable people not fit to reproduce."

 

I'm not defending Islam as to not appear "islamaphobic" (which by the way what PC dickwad came up will of these BS phobias any way?), I just wish to illustrate that the "savagery" and "repressiveness," the main reasons people are citing we should wipe out an entire religion, are traits that are not unique to them and that we share. Do I think radical islam needs to be destroyed? Absolutely. Radicalized anything should be eliminated. But I also don't want to see our mentality shift to becoming more like a radicalized one in the process in order to do so.

 

Sadly, that may be the only answer at this point. In any case, there has been some excellent discussion here about these issues. It's always a privilege to see such different ideas and opinions all developing in a place. To me that is what freedom and liberty are about, and that's why I fear the western world is losing bit by bit as fear takes hold.

 

Yeah, but the problem is that too much of Islam is still like this, whereas the Mongols, Vikings, and Europeans have moved beyond that.

 

The problem IMO with the whole, "We should just defend our borders" view is that the world is way more complex than that. The U.S. underwrites much of global security. Our involvement in the world essentially IS defending our borders. Defending the borders doesn't just mean taking a hands-off view from global affairs and just being prepared in case a country tries to invade. It means taking an active role throughout the world to prevent such threats from arising in the first place.

One of the most dangerous methods of thinking IMO is this belief that major wars are a thing of the past, that a war akin to a World War I or a World War II couldn't happen again. Hopefully not, but major wars tend to be like major financial crises, in that only after the war happens does it appear obvious in hindsight that the pieces were falling into place.

Clearly, slaughtering, raping, pillaging, enslaving, limiting the rights of people, and subjugating them to lower classes of society are evil. If a religion pushes that towards people because they are not part of the tribe or belief system, that religion is absolutely evil. Muhammad did all of the above. He was absolutely evil. Islam is evil. Its time people admit it, confront it, and finally destroy it. Its a moral imperative for the survival of western civilization.

How do we accomplish this?

How do we accomplish this?

 

"We" can't.

 

Only Muslims can.

 

Muslims need to openly, vocally, and violently reject their radical cousins. And it cant be the couched way we've seen til now with the "religion of peace" "theyre not real muslims" platitudes. Or the halfassed, couched, "terrorism is bad.... BUT..." stuff... When asked inn a survey, "should apostasy be punished by death?"; "is terrorism justified in defending Islam?"; "should homosexuals and adulterers be executed?" etc, the answer has to be "fcuking, of course not!!!" And they need to BELIEVE it.

 

And until the % that answers that way gets to 95+% (instead of the 60,50, or in some countries 10% that answer that way now), non muslims are going to treat muslims, no matter how westernized and peaceful in their own lives, with suspicion and contempt....

 

You'll see I didn't say "fear". Because I think theres a Machiavellian current in Muslim culture that views being feared as a strength. And then labels any action on that fear as "Islamophobia" as a political pugil to advance their agenda. Its not going to take much more to reach a tipping point in the west for "fear" to be replaced with wrath. Especially with attacks in places like germany or france. Listen... Ive spent quite a bit of time in both countries as an INSIDER.... And I can tell you, for all their outwardly "cumbyah" pc bullshit, REAL, HARDCORE racism is never very far below the surface there, in a way it DOES NOT EXIST in the U.S. Their government may be pussies, but the PEOPLE are always just one good excuse away from firing up the boxcars.

A religions barbaric practices of the past (some a 1000 years older or more) that they have moved on from should never be used as rationalization for practices of another religion that is currently embracing those practices

A religions barbaric practices of the past (some a 1000 years older or more) that they have moved on from should never be used as rationalization for practices of another religion that is currently embracing those practices

 

 

Agreed... The "Christians killed far more in the inquisition" line is as intellectually dishonest as it is false. (and it IS false). The fact that one has to defend one's modern day practices against people who died and rotted away 900 years ago is particularly pathetic.

I saw articles yesterday that Erdogan has widened his purge of state officials to the education system as well. I haven't seen any post on it so I'll take from the BBC article of the stats they give:

 

15,000+ education staff suspended

- 1,500 university deans have also been ordered to resign

- Licenses of 21,000 teachers working at private institutions revoked

 

[so far elsewhere]

6,000 military personnel have been arrested, with more than two dozen generals awaiting trial

9,000 police officers sacked

3,000 judges suspended

1,500 employees of Turkey's finance ministry have been dismissed

492 have been fired from the Religious Affairs Directorate

 

Turkey's media regulation body on Tuesday also revoked the licenses of 24 radio and TV channels

The country's Religious Affairs Directorate has banned religious funerals for supporters of the attempted coup

 

Is this normal after failed coup attempts? This seems very much over-reaching, somewhat worrying, and further points to a systematic change for the entire country.