The Benz Driver who killed the guy in Scottsdale

Dear God...

 

 

Down Sunset BLVD...

This is horrible, and I ONLY feel sorry for the man who lost his life, and the loved ones of those who will suffer their crimes.

 

1. A quick questions to ask. It was said on here by our resident know the law man that both parties who were involved were resposible for what happened, and I understand that, but what if one was not really racing? What if 1 MB was racing past a Lambo, trying to antagonize him, and the Lambo was doing nothing when the MB crashed? With everyone assuming the Lambo was racing, just because its a Lambo, how would you fight that? How do the innocent stop from being guilty?

 

2. One of the greatest things I have ever heard, which came from a street racing friend of mines father, pointed out to something many upon many exotic car owners fiend upon. Even in my BMW or my Escalade, which I do my damdest to get a smile in, rings true to life:

 

"When your going fast, no one ever gets a chance to see who you are. Take it slow and let them all see the look on your face when you drive by"

 

RIP to the man who was lost today.

Killed? Wasn't it an accident...?

Killed? Wasn't it an accident...?

 

Have you heard of a word I haven't......if someone dies because of your action/s whether accident or on purpose I believe you "killed" the person no?

 

How do we all suffer? I dont street race... I may speed a little from time to time but never excessively or recklessly... Hell, I havent even been pulled over in a decade.

 

 

I feel the local authorities are sick and tired with it and very soon will be releasing steam when it comes to local exotic cars activities.

 

Joe,

Bluemax is not and has never been a member of the SECC.

Reeading the MBworld thread makes me sick to my stomach.

May the driver of the Camaro rest in peace and may they throw the book at both of the idiots racing on Scottsdale road.

Joe,

Bluemax is not and has never been a member of the SECC.

Reeading the MBworld thread makes me sick to my stomach.

May the driver of the Camaro rest in peace and may they throw the book at both of the idiots racing on Scottsdale road.

 

I agree............as i said before, all the more reason to take this stuff to track and have fun in a safe environment. I really appreciate the efforts of Luis and Joe for getting these events together for us so don't have to end up in situations like this. I can tell you this thhough. The police are on instant pull over mode. I got pulled over the other night by my office just because I was driving the lambo. The fcuking cop didn't even know the real speed limit where he pulled me over and let me go. He thought I was doing 60 in a 45 and it was a 55 MPH zone. Trust me, after rob's video and now this. Its bad news all around. All that cop was thinking was lambo and I'm going to pull him over for something.

 

This is horrible, and I ONLY feel sorry for the man who lost his life, and the loved ones of those who will suffer their crimes.

 

1. A quick questions to ask. It was said on here by our resident know the law man that both parties who were involved were resposible for what happened, and I understand that, but what if one was not really racing? What if 1 MB was racing past a Lambo, trying to antagonize him, and the Lambo was doing nothing when the MB crashed? With everyone assuming the Lambo was racing, just because its a Lambo, how would you fight that? How do the innocent stop from being guilty?

Youre asking a FACTUAL question... I cant answer those... Those are for Jurys... I can only tell you: given a concrete set of facts (he was racing OR he wasn't racing) what the law attaches to those actions.

 

If a guy flies past me and crashes into somebody, and Im just loping along doing the speed limit, does not a race make. Hopefully I will have witnesses who will attest to that. There has to be a meeting of the minds... Generally that can be inferred when the SECOND car starts driving fast/recklessly. Can you dream up a nightmare scenario whereby an innocent person gets accused and cant prove his innocence? Of Course... In the end, the state has to prove their case, and I would imagine, unless witnesses LIE, there would be no EVIDENCE that I was involved in a race if I weren't.

Killed? Wasn't it an accident...?

 

An "accident" is when youre driving along safely, and your tie-rod breaks and you get sent flying out of control into another car. Or youre driving along and suddenly have a massive heart attack, lose control and crash into somebody...

Something which happens through no fault of the people involved....

 

This was not an "accident". This was two cars knowingly and intentionally breaking the law, and achieving the foreseeable outcome of breaking that law: Crashing and hurting somebody.

Street racing vids, bragging threads about "kills", videos of dangerous driving are plastered over EVERY car forum.......Maybe its time for the management of ALL car boards to have a "sit down" and establish some guidelines on what kind of material is acceptable. A little self censorship might be good for the cause..... of continuing to be able to have fun with our cars, without the authorities bearing down on us. Also, when the leadership sets a good example, most of the members will follow.... and a few lives get saved over the long run.

 

Since, racing vids, and such are popular, and the board might become a little duller....so we could offset the new policies with a liberalization on the NWS front.... FREE Lambo girl of month pics for example!

 

 

 

 

An "accident" is when youre driving along safely, and your tie-rod breaks and you get sent flying out of control into another car. Or youre driving along and suddenly have a massive heart attack, lose control and crash into somebody...

Something which happens through no fault of the people involved....

 

This was not an "accident". This was two cars knowingly and intentionally breaking the law, and achieving the foreseeable outcome of breaking that law: Crashing and hurting somebody.

 

Not to take away from the death that occured but from what I understand he was making a left turn in front of them. The right of way was to the drivers that were racing. I know this still does not make it ok but from your stand point how would that factor into the situation ? I'm sure the defending attorney's are going to bring this up. 70 in a 45 is obviously fast, but if there was no street racing going on and it was just one car driving and the man who made a turn in front of them got killed, would there still be a 2nd degree murder charge put against them ?

 

Not to take away from the death that occured but from what I understand he was making a left turn in front of them. The right of way was to the drivers that were racing. I know this still does not make it ok but from your stand point how would that factor into the situation ? I'm sure the defending attorney's are going to bring this up. 70 in a 45 is obviously fast, but if there was no street racing going on and it was just one car driving and the man who made a turn in front of them got killed, would there still be a 2nd degree murder charge put against them ?

 

 

It wouldnt...

 

I walk into a bank, wave a gun around (its not even a real gun) and the old man next to me panics, slips, falls and cracks his skull on the floor... Its murder. I didnt push him, I didnt THINK hed do that, but Im responsible.

 

 

The possible negligence of the other driver does nothing to cut off the liability of the criminally reckless racers. The question has to be asked, if they were going at or around the speed limit, would his turn have been safe? The answer given they hit him (meaning if they were going slowly he would have safely cleared the intersection) is probably YES.

 

One of the problems is, when youre racing, and doing twice the speed limit, OTHER DRIVERS 1. Dont know youre going THAT FAST- ( Its hard to judge speed at distance especially when the object is coming at you...) ; 2. may not have a chance to even see you before its too late. THATS WHY racing on streets is against the law.

 

Civilly it may REDUCE a judgment (I dont know AZ law on this- it may not) but given the criminal actions of the defendants, not by much.

 

 

Wow! Happy freakin' New Year!

 

What a horrific tragedy for the families.

 

I can only think of my kids in the other room and how this scenerio would impact them.

 

God bless everyone,

 

Dave

FREE Lambo girl of month pics for example!

Mr Vroom, you are on to something.

 

I too have noticed a rise of undercover poice on patrol in our area.

 

If you all want to see how some on the MB board take their street racing, check out

this guy

 

 

Street racing vids, bragging threads about "kills", videos of dangerous driving are plastered over EVERY car forum.......Maybe its time for the management of ALL car boards to have a "sit down" and establish some guidelines on what kind of material is acceptable. A little self censorship might be good for the cause..... of continuing to be able to have fun with our cars, without the authorities bearing down on us. Also, when the leadership sets a good example, most of the members will follow.... and a few lives get saved over the long run.

 

Since, racing vids, and such are popular, and the board might become a little duller....so we could offset the new policies with a liberalization on the NWS front.... FREE Lambo girl of month pics for example!

 

 

Bernard, I think it's an overreaction to a single incident. Drunk driving, smoking, drugs, heart disease, cancer, etc.....all kill far more people everyday than street racing. You can't stop people from smoking, drinking, doping, eating fast food, etc.....and you can't stop them from street racing. I really don't see how pretending it doesn't exist by not allowing video or discussion of it accomplishes anything. Bottom line, I want to hear about races and I'd like to see videos of them. The boards are a forum for membership to discuss the things that interest them and the more hit traffic, the more money for the owners in sponsorships, etc......McDonald's isn't going to stop selling those artery choking french fries just because death can occur from eating them, and they aren't going to stop advertising them to your kids or stop building kiddie playgrounds to get them in to start consuming them as early as possible. I am of the opinion that when something like this happens, it just gives us ALL cause to be a bit more careful and responsible in regards to picking our battles, so in that regard the discussion and videos are a POWERFUL positive tool, but to eliminate discussion and video of such things simply will make one thing happen......members will go somewhere else to see what they want to see and discuss what they want to discuss.

 

BTW, murder will never stick. It implies intent to kill. No such intention was present here. It's a trumped up charge by the DA that he knows will never stick to sensationalize the situation and put the fear of God into anyone reading about it that might think about street racing. My bet is that there is no way they can prove they were racing, the rate of speed in nonindicitive of a race and they will get charged with vehicular manslaughter which can be charged as a misdemeanor or a felony. My money in on the felony charge, but realistically this isn't something that's going to put him away for more than a year or two, MAX. A good lawyer will pick it apart.

Bernard, I think it's an overreaction to a single incident. Drunk driving, smoking, drugs, heart disease, cancer, etc.....all kill far more people everyday than street racing. You can't stop people from smoking, drinking, doping, eating fast food, etc.....and you can't stop them from street racing. I really don't see how pretending it doesn't exist by not allowing video or discussion of it accomplishes anything. Bottom line, I want to hear about races and I'd like to see videos of them. The boards are a forum for membership to discuss the things that interest them and the more hit traffic, the more money for the owners in sponsorships, etc......McDonald's isn't going to stop selling those artery choking french fries just because death can occur from eating them, and they aren't going to stop advertising them to your kids or stop building kiddie playgrounds to get them in to start consuming them as early as possible. I am of the opinion that when something like this happens, it just gives us ALL cause to be a bit more careful and responsible in regards to picking our battles, so in that regard the discussion and videos are a POWERFUL positive tool, but to eliminate discussion and video of such things simply will make one thing happen......members will go somewhere else to see what they want to see and discuss what they want to discuss.

 

BTW, murder will never stick. It implies intent to kill. No such intention was present here. It's a trumped up charge by the DA that he knows will never stick to sensationalize the situation and put the fear of God into anyone reading about it that might think about street racing. My bet is that there is no way they can prove they were racing, the rate of speed in nonindicitive of a race and they will get charged with vehicular manslaughter which can be charged as a misdemeanor or a felony. My money in on the felony charge, but realistically this isn't something that's going to put him away for more than a year or two, MAX. A good lawyer will pick it apart.

Are you serious?

Are you serious?

 

 

I'm absolutely serious. Creating and developing internet forums and businesses is what one of my businesses IS. When you start telling people what they can and cannot discuss and start trying to remove the vein of the culture from the forum, you will kill it. I've seen it happen over and over again. Once you start dictating to grown men what they can and cannot discuss, you are in trouble. Now if something is GROSSLY irresponsible or reckless, obviously you need to use common sense discretion, but to put a blanket ban on something that IS the culture of fast automobiles is committing forum suicide. Bottom line, tragedy happens, but street racing is the fabric of the culture of fast and modified automobiles. Should they pull every copy the Fast and the Furious and destroy them all because someone was killed during a street race? Tragedy tends to create overreaction by everyone. Take a deep breath, wait 2 weeks to react, and generally the correct decisions are made.

Bernard, I think it's an overreaction to a single incident. Drunk driving, smoking, drugs, heart disease, cancer, etc.....all kill far more people everyday than street racing. You can't stop people from smoking, drinking, doping, eating fast food, etc.....and you can't stop them from street racing. I really don't see how pretending it doesn't exist by not allowing video or discussion of it accomplishes anything. Bottom line, I want to hear about races and I'd like to see videos of them. The boards are a forum for membership to discuss the things that interest them and the more hit traffic, the more money for the owners in sponsorships, etc......McDonald's isn't going to stop selling those artery choking french fries just because death can occur from eating them, and they aren't going to stop advertising them to your kids or stop building kiddie playgrounds to get them in to start consuming them as early as possible. I am of the opinion that when something like this happens, it just gives us ALL cause to be a bit more careful and responsible in regards to picking our battles, so in that regard the discussion and videos are a POWERFUL positive tool, but to eliminate discussion and video of such things simply will make one thing happen......members will go somewhere else to see what they want to see and discuss what they want to discuss.

 

BTW, murder will never stick. It implies intent to kill. No such intention was present here. It's a trumped up charge by the DA that he knows will never stick to sensationalize the situation and put the fear of God into anyone reading about it that might think about street racing. My bet is that there is no way they can prove they were racing, the rate of speed in nonindicitive of a race and they will get charged with vehicular manslaughter which can be charged as a misdemeanor or a felony. My money in on the felony charge, but realistically this isn't something that's going to put him away for more than a year or two, MAX. A good lawyer will pick it apart.

 

Todd, you are preaching to the choir.... we all like racing vids. I am only advocating a little self censorship not a ban. Surely, a vid like this needs to be condemmend, these guys are racing in heavy traffic, passing on the left and the right at 140mph!

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-9BHqgyZjUY&feature=related

 

When that vid was posted on the M5board, no one criticized it, even the mods were praising it. If you do a search here, you will find guys in Lambos doing the same....

 

 

 

Todd, you are preaching to the choir.... we all like racing vids. I am only advocating a little self censorship not a ban. Surely, a vid like this needs to be condemmend, these guys are racing in heavy traffic, passing on the left and the right at 140mph!

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-9BHqgyZjUY&feature=related

 

When that vid was posted on the M5board, no one criticized it, even the mods were praising it. If you do a search here, you will find guys in Lambos doing the same....

 

 

Absolutely agree. Races in heavy traffic are not only stupid they are reckless and I would be ALL FOR not having such a thing on any reasonable forum site. The thing is, you either have to allow them ALL or heavily monitor those. Internet law says that when you begin the process of moderation of such things, you will be held to the standard of removing harmful content. If they are never moderated then there is no liability. The forums who let ANYTHING go are actually in far less of a liability situation than the forums that try to monitor them. From a business perspective you are almost better off to just let everything fly.

 

 

BTW, murder will never stick.

 

2nd degree sure as hell will.

 

One incident? Shit like this happens on a weekly basis across the country.

 

When you start telling people what they can and cannot discuss and start trying to remove the vein of the culture from the forum, you will kill it.

 

Forums aren't telling people what not to discuss for the members own good, they're doing it for the OWNERS own good.

 

Ve++eforums and cz28.com, for example, have removed street kill stories sections long ago for the sake of LIABILITY, not trying to prevent its members from doing it.

 

2nd degree sure as hell will.

 

One incident? Shit like this happens on a weekly basis across the country.

Forums aren't telling people what not to discuss for the members own good, they're doing it for the OWNERS own good.

 

Ve++eforums and cz28.com, for example, have removed street kill stories sections long ago for the sake of LIABILITY, not trying to prevent its members from doing it.

by putting a "KILL" section, you encourage and endorse the activity.

 

Absolutely agree. Races in heavy traffic are not only stupid they are reckless and I would be ALL FOR not having such a thing on any reasonable forum site. The thing is, you either have to allow them ALL or heavily monitor those. Internet law says that when you begin the process of moderation of such things, you will be held to the standard of removing harmful content. If they are never moderated then there is no liability. The forums who let ANYTHING go are actually in far less of a liability situation than the forums that try to monitor them. From a business perspective you are almost better off to just let everything fly.

 

I think you worry too much about liability and not enough about your own privledge to drive your G. When the collective stupidity of exotic/fast car owners rises to a level where the general public feels threatened..... your privledges will be severly curtailed.

Killed? Wasn't it an accident...?

More like an assassination; a lot of people are guilty of doing inappropriate things but it sounds more like these guys are legally stupid - they might as well have been speeding in a school zone!

 

I understand where Alan is coming from....when you witness such a tragedy it leaves a lifetime impression in your heart and soul. Whether you like it or not, sadly, you become a part of it.

The forums who let ANYTHING go

 

which forums are these?

 

The closest thing I know of on a medium to large size that unmoderated, in 4chan. Even that has moderators to remove some illegal stuff.

 

 

There are certainly no enthusiast type forums that are unmoderated.

...when you witness such a tragedy it leaves a lifetime impression in your heart and sole.

 

 

Damn thats deep, an impression so great it affects your shoes?!