The Benz Driver who killed the guy in Scottsdale

Damn thats deep, an impression so great it affects your shoes?!

LOL .... thanks dude! "soul"

I dont think Id go that far, give me a few days and Ill go back to being the unsympathetic prick I normally am.

BTW, murder will never stick. It implies intent to kill. No such intention was present here. It's a trumped up charge by the DA that he knows will never stick to sensationalize the situation and put the fear of God into anyone reading about it that might think about street racing. My bet is that there is no way they can prove they were racing, the rate of speed in nonindicitive of a race and they will get charged with vehicular manslaughter which can be charged as a misdemeanor or a felony. My money in on the felony charge, but realistically this isn't something that's going to put him away for more than a year or two, MAX. A good lawyer will pick it apart.

 

Blacks Law Dictionary:

 

Second Degree Murder: 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.

 

It will stick.

 

 

I'm absolutely serious. Creating and developing internet forums and businesses is what one of my businesses IS. When you start telling people what they can and cannot discuss and start trying to remove the vein of the culture from the forum, you will kill it. I've seen it happen over and over again. Once you start dictating to grown men what they can and cannot discuss, you are in trouble. Now if something is GROSSLY irresponsible or reckless, obviously you need to use common sense discretion, but to put a blanket ban on something that IS the culture of fast automobiles is committing forum suicide. Bottom line, tragedy happens, but street racing is the fabric of the culture of fast and modified automobiles. Should they pull every copy the Fast and the Furious and destroy them all because someone was killed during a street race? Tragedy tends to create overreaction by everyone. Take a deep breath, wait 2 weeks to react, and generally the correct decisions are made.

 

 

Weve never had it here, and we're doing just fine... Thanks for the input.

Not much to say that hasnt been already - except I would like to extend my condolences to all that have lost over this, and the list is very long, and will grow.

The thing is, you either have to allow them ALL or heavily monitor those. Internet law says that when you begin the process of moderation of such things, you will be held to the standard of removing harmful content. If they are never moderated then there is no liability. The forums who let ANYTHING go are actually in far less of a liability situation than the forums that try to monitor them. From a business perspective you are almost better off to just let everything fly.

Do you want to post a citation for this, because its pure hogwash.

 

LP is not responsible for the independent posts of our members, regardless of whether we allow some, allow none, etc. This has been adjudicated with regards to slander/libel and it would follow that it would extend to other civil wrongdoing.

 

But if we take steps to ENCOURAGE unlawful behavior, we're right back in the liability loop. Weve chosen to actively DISCOURAGE it, both on the site and on our member runs.

I think you worry too much about liability and not enough about your own privledge to drive your G. When the collective stupidity of exotic/fast car owners rises to a level where the general public feels threatened..... your privledges will be severly curtailed.

 

I suppose I come at it from the perspective of advising people who to run profitable internet forums. I am of the opinion that the media overblows EVERYTHING simply to illicit public reaction and sensationalize. My father was big into street racing and so were many of my friends father's, many of whom are still very much into fast cars and mostly muscle cars. To a man they say that it's MUCH less common these days than it used to be back when they were doing it. The cops pretty much looked the other way 30 years ago in many areas. The issue comes in when these morons race on public roads through traffic and brag about it and tape it. It creates an illusion of a rampant and more widespread issue than it really is. It has always happened, will always happen, and in reality is FAR less prevalent today than it was 30 years ago where it basically WAS what you did on Friday and Saturday nights. Unfortunately these days, with so much more traffic, there are idiots who simply don't choose the right time and place and get carried away. That's when things like this happen.

 

 

Blacks Law Dictionary:

 

Second Degree Murder: 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.

 

It will stick.

 

You are assuming they can PROVE that these two were racing. I'd say that is very much an uncertainty, especially at only 70mph. I'd be surprised.

Weve never had it here, and we're doing just fine... Thanks for the input.

 

I would say modified exotics are becoming more and more prevalent and I don't see how that's a point to be argued. As for traffic on the board, you could certainly generate much more traffic under the right circumstances. We have forum sites that generate top 3000 on the internet hit levels with thousands of posts and over 100,000 individual visitors per day. I'm certainly not telling you how to run things, but "just fine" is a matter of perception. You can always do better. I'm done with this topic as obviously you are taking my commentary personally in some way, which was not my intention. It's your house and your rules. Do as you see fit.

I suppose I come at it from the perspective of advising people who to run profitable internet forums. I am of the opinion that the media overblows EVERYTHING simply to illicit public reaction and sensationalize. My father was big into street racing and so were many of my friends father's, many of whom are still very much into fast cars and mostly muscle cars. To a man they say that it's MUCH less common these days than it used to be back when they were doing it. The cops pretty much looked the other way 30 years ago in many areas. The issue comes in when these morons race on public roads through traffic and brag about it and tape it. It creates an illusion of a rampant and more widespread issue than it really is. It has always happened, will always happen, and in reality is FAR less prevalent today than it was 30 years ago where it basically WAS what you did on Friday and Saturday nights. Unfortunately these days, with so much more traffic, there are idiots who simply don't choose the right time and place and get carried away. That's when things like this happen.

You are assuming they can PROVE that these two were racing. I'd say that is very much an uncertainty, especially at only 70mph. I'd be surprised.

 

1. 70 MPH is going to be the LOW estimate for that crash....

 

2. 70 in a 45 is PRIMAE FACIE RECKLESS DRIVING IN EVERY JURISDICTION I KNOW OF.

 

3. A death occurring from RECKLESS (see how that word keeps coming up?) behavior is MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

 

 

 

This is not a negligent homicide... Where somebody is driving negligently, inattentively, or a little too fast for safety... If they were going 55 or maybe even 60, that would be Vehicular Manslaughter. They were going at least 25 MPH OVER the speed limit... That is RECKLESS DRIVING, and that raises the standard to murder.

 

Now.. I suggest you ask for your money back on the correspondence law school you got your JD from, because it isnt working for you.

Damn thats deep, an impression so great it affects your shoes?!

 

LOL!!

1. 70 MPH is going to be the LOW estimate for that crash....

 

2. 70 in a 45 is PRIMAE FACIE RECKLESS DRIVING IN EVERY JURISDICTION I KNOW OF.

 

3. A death occurring from RECKLESS (see how that word keeps coming up?) behavior is MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

This is not a negligent homicide.... That would be Vehicular Manslaughter. This is RECKLESS DRIVING and that raises the standeard to murder.

 

Now.. I suggest you ask for your money back on the correspondence law school you got your JD from, because it isnt working for you.

 

You can personally attack me if you like. Frankly, I'm not going to participate in personal attacks.

1. 70 MPH is going to be the LOW estimate for that crash....

 

2. 70 in a 45 is PRIMAE FACIE RECKLESS DRIVING IN EVERY JURISDICTION I KNOW OF.

 

3. A death occurring from RECKLESS (see how that word keeps coming up?) behavior is MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

This is not a negligent homicide... Where somebody is driving negligently, inattentively, or a little too fast for safety... If they were going 55 or maybe even 60, that would be Vehicular Manslaughter. They were going at least 25 MPH OVER the speed limit... That is RECKLESS DRIVING, and that raises the standard to murder.

 

Now.. I suggest you ask for your money back on the correspondence law school you got your JD from, because it isn't working for you.

 

 

You make some very good legal arguments, AS ALWAYS.. but.. I will side with VegasSE on this matter. There is no way in my opinion that Murder 2 will stick to Bluemax.

 

I am no lawyer but I think that Second degree murder charges reserved for people who were holding weapons in their hands, those of the kind that intend to kill like firearms, knifes, baseball bats, fists etc... As bad as this situation might look to the public, it will be shown in a much different light in the court room.

Two guys speeding down the street, car pulls up in front of them, they both hit that car, guy dies... doesn't sound like a murder to me and it won't sound like it to the jury either.

 

Another point I want to make is that if the lawyers will prove that the camero made a reckless left turn (which unfortunately they will MOST LIKELY be able to prove) then whose to say the guy wouldn't be dead even if they where traveling 20 mph less... the speed might have had a marginal contribution to the tragic end result...

 

Just being the devil's advocate here, of course I realize exactly what really went down on Scottsdale Road on Friday afternoon. The guy was an ass who killed an innocent old dude and he deserves anything that will come his way.

I am no lawyer but I think that Second degree murder charges reserved for people who were holding weapons in their hands, those of the kind that intend to kill like firearms, knifes, baseball bats, fists etc...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a car considered a lethal weapon in the US?

You make some very good legal arguments, AS ALWAYS.. but.. I will side with VegasSE on this matter. There is no way in my opinion that Murder 2 will stick to Bluemax.

 

I am no lawyer but I think that Second degree murder charges reserved for people who were holding weapons in their hands, those of the kind that intend to kill like firearms, knifes, baseball bats, fists etc... As bad as this situation might look to the public, it will be shown in a much different light in the court room.

Two guys speeding down the street, car pulls up in front of them, they both hit that car, guy dies... doesn't sound like a murder to me and it won't sound like it to the jury either.

 

Another point I want to make is that if the lawyers will prove that the camero made a reckless left turn (which unfortunately they will MOST LIKELY be able to prove) then whose to say the guy wouldn't be dead even if they where traveling 20 mph less... the speed might have had a marginal contribution to the tragic end result...

 

Just being the devil's advocate here, of course I realize exactly what really went down on Scottsdale Road on Friday afternoon. The guy was an ass who killed an innocent old dude and he deserves anything that will come his way.

 

I'm with rakjoe on this as well. I don't think murder is going to stick. Manslaughter, yes, but not murder. I'd bet that the charges don't even make it to court and if they do it will get pleaded down. What rakjoe is saying was exactly my point in my earlier post. If the two of them were just driving and were going no faster than 65 or 70 woudl he have died for making a turn when they had the right of way ?? Wreckless driving or I should say criminal speed in AZ is 30 MPH over the speed limit in a commercial area and 25 MPH is a residential area. From what I gather it was a commercial area (scottsdale road) so thier speed IF proved to be 70 MPH would be a civil speeding. Wreckless driving and street racing are seperate charges that obviously can be added which would constitiue the manslaughter charge but not murder.

 

You are assuming they can PROVE that these two were racing. I'd say that is very much an uncertainty, especially at only 70mph. I'd be surprised.

 

 

Since when does speed have anything to do with the fact that you were racing?

Since when does speed have anything to do with the fact that you were racing?

 

It doesn't, you brought up a good point which is why I mentioned they would throw in wreckless driving or street racing which are criminal charges but then again they would have to prove that they were racing. From what the news reporter said there were several witnesses so its going to be up to them really on how that turns out since there was no cops that witnessed it.

 

Either way if it was me I would be mortified that I played a part in someone dying but obviously I'm going to get the best attorney I can to help myself out in any way possible.

 

Does anybody know if the Benz should have had an EDR(event data recorder) on board? I am almost certain the Mustang comes with one from the factory. As I understand it, an EDR records about 10 seconds of data prior to a crash. Manufacturers install these devices to provide crash analysis to improve safety. I have also heard cases where the EDR is used to convict a person, especially in the event of a fatality.

 

My guess is that if such information becomes available, it will be very clear the cars were traveling faster than 70mph. The Camaro was literally destroyed beyond recognition, so bad that members of the AZ Camaro/Firebird club early on had trouble figuring out what year Camaro it was... with guesses ranging from early 1970s to late 80s.

Nearly all street races that end in a death are charged as second degree murder. Whether it sticks or not is up to the prosecution, defense and jury.

 

 

I'd say Blueballs chances of escaping 2nd aren't very good, given the circumstances.

Over six years ago in NY: link

 

 

The POS driver who hit a fence and a parked empty school bus was sentenced to five to 15 years in prison.

Does anybody know if the Benz should have had an EDR(event data recorder) on board? I am almost certain the Mustang comes with one from the factory. As I understand it, an EDR records about 10 seconds of data prior to a crash. Manufacturers install these devices to provide crash analysis to improve safety. I have also heard cases where the EDR is used to convict a person, especially in the event of a fatality.

 

My guess is that if such information becomes available, it will be very clear the cars were traveling faster than 70mph. The Camaro was literally destroyed beyond recognition, so bad that members of the AZ Camaro/Firebird club early on had trouble figuring out what year Camaro it was... with guesses ranging from early 1970s to late 80s.

 

 

You've raised a very good point.

 

While the concept of "big brother" looking over our shoulder is unappealing to say the least, it is a fact of life. The evidence this black box will provide could be difficult to disprove.

( It may also determine innocence, although based on the limited amount of information available, it seems unlikely)

 

 

You make some very good legal arguments, AS ALWAYS.. but.. I will side with VegasSE on this matter. There is no way in my opinion that Murder 2 will stick to Bluemax.

 

I am no lawyer but I think that Second degree murder charges reserved for people who were holding weapons in their hands, those of the kind that intend to kill like firearms, knifes, baseball bats, fists etc... As bad as this situation might look to the public, it will be shown in a much different light in the court room.

Two guys speeding down the street, car pulls up in front of them, they both hit that car, guy dies... doesn't sound like a murder to me and it won't sound like it to the jury either.

 

Another point I want to make is that if the lawyers will prove that the camero made a reckless left turn (which unfortunately they will MOST LIKELY be able to prove) then whose to say the guy wouldn't be dead even if they where traveling 20 mph less... the speed might have had a marginal contribution to the tragic end result...

 

Just being the devil's advocate here, of course I realize exactly what really went down on Scottsdale Road on Friday afternoon. The guy was an ass who killed an innocent old dude and he deserves anything that will come his way.

 

Sorry Joe... People get charged with, and convicted of, murder every day for Fatal DUIs... Some have even been charged with FIRST degree murder for DUI in extreme cases.

 

Its less common with "street Racing" only because its a newer phenomenon, and is only now becomming a prosecutorial priority. But it may not even matter... Many states (California included- Not sure about Arizona but I wouldnt be surprised) have adopted special "street racing" laws that carry HARSH (murder-like) penalties for injuries/deaths resulting from illegal speed contests.

 

And given a choice, Id rather take my chances with a guy who's blowing a .08 and driving as carefully as he can, than two totally sober assholes going 70+ in a 45.

 

The second problem is youre mixing your legal terms... AT WORST the camaro's turn was NEGLIGENT (a lower standard of culpability) to the racers RECKLESSNESS.

 

Here are some examples...

 

Example 1- I get in my car knowing the tires are a bit bald... I have no intention of hurting anybody, I just cant afford new tires... And the chances anything bad will happen are somewhat slim. I take my chances and one blows out and I crash- Thats Negligence homicide/manslaughter. I didnt maintain my car in a way I should have... I FAILED to act as a reasonable person and my failure resulted in somebody's death. Its bad, but not as egregious as murder.

 

 

Example 2- I build a meth-lab in my apartment in a building I share with other tenants. What Im doing is illegal, and the chemicals are highly explosive and very well COULD explode, but I simply dont give a crap because I enjoy what Im doing. I dont WANT it to explode... I DONT WANT IT TO HURT ANYBODY... But I really like meth. My lab blows up killing my next door neighbor. That is recklessness. I took affirmative ACTIONS which put others at risk, KNOWING I was putting others at risk, and DIDNT CARE. Thats 2nd degree murder.

Have you heard of a word I haven't......if someone dies because of your action/s whether accident or on purpose I believe you "killed" the person no?

Oh yes, you are right. I didn't think that far, just got the impression that it meant "murdered". My bad

Not sure where your comments are going VegasSE, to me they seem a little misplaced.

 

Everyone involved will be forever scarred by those events. Even the innocent relatives.....I for one would never want to put my family through such pain and embarassment. I'm sure if it were your loved one in that car your attitude would be wholey different.

 

Bluemax is 40+ yrs old he should have known better much better. No excuse....I believe and hope he should get the book thrown at him.

 

Yes the media tend to sensationalise things but that doesn't detract from the fact that what he did was morally wrong and illegal with devasting impact.

 

Reading this has DEFINATELY made me think twice about how I should drive especially in built up areas.

 

Think on this forum we should all be adult enough to be responsibile and attempt to discourage "stupid" posts of dangerous racing whether incident happens or not, everyone enjoys racing to a degree nothing wrong with that but their is a need to be responsible especially when other lives could be at risk.

 

 

You are assuming they can PROVE that these two were racing.

 

 

Won't be hard at all. Between an accident reconstruction, and one of the drivers (or the female passenger) spilling the beans, they have all the proof they need. I guarantee one of the three has already admitted they were racing.

 

 

 

Does anybody know if the Benz should have had an EDR(event data recorder) on board? I am almost certain the Mustang comes with one from the factory. As I understand it, an EDR records about 10 seconds of data prior to a crash. Manufacturers install these devices to provide crash analysis to improve safety. I have also heard cases where the EDR is used to convict a person, especially in the event of a fatality.

 

My guess is that if such information becomes available, it will be very clear the cars were traveling faster than 70mph. The Camaro was literally destroyed beyond recognition, so bad that members of the AZ Camaro/Firebird club early on had trouble figuring out what year Camaro it was... with guesses ranging from early 1970s to late 80s.

When I saw the car it was mangled beyond recognition. I thought it was an old jaguar. Inmo, to mangle a car that badly, they would have had to have been going a good deal faster than 70mph, BUT then again, if you look at the damage to the Benz its really not that bad, so its very hard to gauge the speeds they were going. Maybe it was the Mustang which caused the majority of the damage. The Benz could have clipped the side of the car and the mustang gone head on into the camaro and then flipped into the ditch.