Are after market wheels the cause of accidents in Murcs?

HREs in factory spec size.

 

Edit: HRE monobloks in factory spec size

Maybe they looked a bit better before the crash...

 

Those wheels are hideous

were you thinking of changing the SV rims?

 

Absolutely not. I know what Lamborghini went through to get them right. Besides, I love the stock rims.

As I recall he had just bought the car hours earlier..... I cant remember if he had them put those rims on or if they came with them????

 

However.... One of his arguments is that he is "an experienced driver". He may have been driving CARS a long time, but thats not the same as "Experience". TO ME "experience" mean a long period of seat time in a particular car over a period of time, in various road and weather conditions and levels of speed....

 

In terms of high performance cars, saying "Ive driven the 2007 Murcielago before" is meaningless.... How long have you driven THAT 2007 Murcielago? Because at the performance levels he was pushing it to, each one will behave slightly different. He had that car for a few hours and was already cranking it up to top speeds.... DUMB. Drive it for a few WEEK OR MONTHS..... LEARN the car..... Dont just strap yourself in and step on the fcuking thing and expect the car to make up for your lack of knowledge of what to expect.

 

As far as Aftermarket wheels.... Ive owned a lot of cars over the last 20 someodd years.... And every owners manual Ive ever seen has had some version of the legal disclaimer "adding parts not approved by the manufacturer" or specifically "changing the wheel specifications from those that came equipped with the car" can void the Manufacturer warranty ( or result in injury/death etc).

 

Extremely well said. I put 10,000 miles on my LP640 and the SV is like starting from the very beginning. EVERYTHING is different.

HREs in factory spec size.

 

Edit: HRE monobloks in factory spec size

 

That wouldn't matter. I drive my car fast at times and my life has to depend on them. I know how Lamborghini tests their wheels. I'm not so confident about anyone else because there isn't enough margin and volume to offset the expense of similar testing.

I keep stock rims on sport cars. Don't mind running aftermarket on DD's that's not meant for 200mph+.

 

Edit: If I don't plan on going above 150mph in the vehicle I don't mind aftermarket. Any vehicle I plan on going faster than 150mph I leave stock rims.

 

 

That's a smart aproach and I will also ad that on cars that go over 150 mph I will not patch a flat tire but rather replace it with new..

Maybe they looked a bit better before the crash...

 

No, no they didn't. God those things look awful, poor Murci.

I dont think aftermarket wheels are a significant cause in any accidents. When Lambo did testing with wheels, they would have done different combinations of sizes during testing. The tranny and other power transfer components have to have a factor of safety to allow for different weights and sizes to some extent. Granted this may effect performance to some degree but if there was that small of an acceptable range of wheel weights and sizes, they would have issued some kind of warning knowing the level of aftermarket modifications in the car industry these days.

 

BUT i do agree with the above post that at excessive speeds or racing, I would stick with the stockers

In terms of high performance cars, saying "Ive driven the 2007 Murcielago before" is meaningless.... How long have you driven THAT 2007 Murcielago? Because at the performance levels he was pushing it to, each one will behave slightly different. He had that car for a few hours and was already cranking it up to top speeds.... DUMB. Drive it for a few WEEK OR MONTHS..... LEARN the car..... Dont just strap yourself in and step on the fcuking thing and expect the car to make up for your lack of knowledge of what to expect.

 

I meant you "WOULD NOT" pull your wallet out. sorry I made a mistake and than I couldn't edit my post!

 

I agree 100% with your comment, every time I got something different I was very cautious and I gave myself enough time to learn its quirks, you have to be mad to jump in a car first time in your life and take it to top speed, I feel sorry for what's happened to him but I think he had a huge influence over it.

And those wheels even when new and shiny

I just got an e-mail from someone very knowledgeable regarding wheels and saw the thread and said that any difference in wheel size outside of spec between front and rear will cause the viscous coupling to heat to the point where the fluid loses its chemical properties, causing additional complications and failure.

 

I think you ment tire size, the car doesn't care if you have 17" or 26" wheels. As long as the front and rear are within {(1%) speculation found to work in other AWD cars} of the factory ratio. I.E. 335/30ZR18 26.1" 245/35R18 24.5" front and rear factory tire diameters have a 6.13% diff. I would image the factory took this and modified the V/C for this percent variation from a standared 50/50 seen in many AWD cars. As long as your aftermarket tire diameter is within {(+/-1%) of a 6.13% ratio} you should be good. But changing fatory tire sizes on AWD car is never advised, and done at ones own risk.

 

Maybe the addition of oil coolers for diff and/or VT's should be considered when changing from OEM wheels.

 

That woundn't help.

 

That wouldn't matter. I drive my car fast at times and my life has to depend on them. I know how Lamborghini tests their wheels. I'm not so confident about anyone else because there isn't enough margin and volume to offset the expense of similar testing.

 

Many companys do BBS, Rays wheels, OZ. U.S. wheel companys dont have to test their wheels, or pass any sort of inspection.

I think the wheel argument is pretty lame even though most aftermarket wheels are terrible.The biggest single issue regarding accidents with exotics is driver error. Most of todays cars are too much car for the average driver even with ABS,ESP etc etc. You go too fast for a specific road condition no electronic aid is going to save you.

Problem is most guys have an ego so huge that when they screw up it cannot possibly be their fault. Not to say there are no isolated cases that are unrelated to unsafe driving but as a rule in NA it is never your fault and there always must be someone else to blame for one's actions . That why lawyers do so well and insurance premiums are so high.

I think the wheel argument is pretty lame even though most aftermarket wheels are terrible.The biggest single issue regarding accidents with exotics is driver error. Most of todays cars are too much car for the average driver even with ABS,ESP etc etc. You go too fast for a specific road condition no electronic aid is going to save you.

Problem is most guys have an ego so huge that when they screw up it cannot possibly be their fault. Not to say there are no isolated cases that are unrelated to unsafe driving but as a rule in NA it is never your fault and there always must be someone else to blame for one's actions . That why lawyers do so well and insurance premiums are so high.

 

This thread started from the opposite prospective- from an observation that there seemed to be more accidents with cars that had aftermarket wheels. It could all be coincidence, and it could be that guys who buy after market wheels are more prone to drive more often, or drive faster, and therefore have more accidents, then I heard from someone who knows their stuff who also advised against aftermarket wheels. None of these people who are advising against after market wheels are because they are blaming the cars for any accidents they had, but because of what they also believe leads to more accidents. The problem is the sample is so small it would be almost impossible to prove anything one way or another.

This thread started from the opposite prospective- from an observation that there seemed to be more accidents with cars that had aftermarket wheels. It could all be coincidence, and it could be that guys who buy after market wheels are more prone to drive more often, or drive faster, and therefore have more accidents, then I heard from someone who knows their stuff who also advised against aftermarket wheels. None of these people who are advising against after market wheels are because they are blaming the cars for any accidents they had, but because of what they also believe leads to more accidents. The problem is the sample is so small it would be almost impossible to prove anything one way or another.

 

Please tell me you are kidding lol . I can humour aftermarket wheels causing problems with the awd, affecting braking and handling but being a common cause to more accidents is just insulting to one's intelligence.

For what it is worth, with the speed limits that we have in NA, losing a modern day Lambo on any given road driving sensibly is just about impossible unless the driver is completely inept . The only other element is not enough talent and too much car.

Please tell me you are kidding lol . I can humour aftermarket wheels causing problems with the awd, affecting braking and handling but being a common cause to more accidents is just insulting to one's intelligence.

For what it is worth, with the speed limits that we have in NA, losing a modern day Lambo on any given road driving sensibly is just about impossible unless the driver is completely inept . The only other element is not enough talent and too much car.

 

 

And where your ideas converge with Tommy's is that the inept/undertalented driver is usually driving an aesthetics only modded Lambo.

 

I'm not against changing rims, but some of these oversized and/or showy rims say a lot more about the owner than you would think. Not all owners but a good percentage, definitely.

 

To echo one of Ralph's complaints is that there's just way more poseurs owning these exotics than there were 10-15 years ago. I just can't recall so many high end cars being totaled so often. Also I don't recall many Ferraris or Diablos in the '90s that had aftermarket rims....let alone tasteless ones. Even cars that desperately needed them looks wise didn't usually (348, F512 M, lol).

 

Going to bigger rims to fit bigger brakes, or just getting lighter rims....you just don't hear people talk about that sorta stuff these days.

 

And where your ideas converge with Tommy's is that the inept/undertalented driver is usually driving an aesthetics only modded Lambo.

 

I'm not against changing rims, but some of these oversized and/or showy rims say a lot more about the owner than you would think. Not all owners but a good percentage, definitely.

 

To echo one of Ralph's complaints is that there's just way more poseurs owning these exotics than there were 10-15 years ago. I just can't recall so many high end cars being totaled so often. Also I don't recall many Ferraris or Diablos in the '90s that had aftermarket rims....let alone tasteless ones. Even cars that desperately needed them looks wise didn't usually (348, F512 M, lol).

 

Going to bigger rims to fit bigger brakes, or just getting lighter rims....you just don't hear people talk about that sorta stuff these days.

 

May have something to do with age. Typically the more expensive the car, the older the average age of the drivers. It could be that because the fleet of Murcielagos has aged and has since been priced accordingly it allows for more and more cars to end up in the hands of younger and younger buyers. There also seem to be more and more tasteless wheel companies who think that by going more extreme they will attract buyers. I also noticed that a certain magazine focused on the used market seems to celebrate some of the most tasteless cars around, probably to keep up their advertising base of wheel companies.

could just be the type of person who wants aftermarket wheels is a show off type person who may not have the performance driven mods on his plate. I woudl say it is just a coincidence unless people have had issues that didn't result in accidents but can be pointed back to aftermarket wheels. Essentially if rubber is touching pavement a wheel is serving its purpose, different wheels/ tires may decrease peak performance or ride quality but it wouldn't make the car unsafe to drive around town IMO.

 

I beg to differ. All wheels are NOT created equally. Aesthetics aside there are major differences.

First is the issue of weight. The higher quality aftermarket wheels will be as light if not lighter than OEM, while the cheaper wheels tend to be heavier than OEM.

Secondly is the quality of casting & metals used for these non OEM wheels. The specific chemical formula of the metals used will play a major role in the quality of the wheel. One piece vs two piece vs three piece construction is also important in the wheels construction.

 

How a wheel is created it's inherent weight and how that weight is distributed throughout the wheel will affect rotational mass. The handling characteristics of a wheel are usually only really revealed at the upper limits of ahdhesion.

Those wheels are hideous

 

That was what I said too ! (hence NO!!!)

 

I beg to differ. All wheels are NOT created equally. Aesthetics aside there are major differences.

First is the issue of weight. The higher quality aftermarket wheels will be as light if not lighter than OEM, while the cheaper wheels tend to be heavier than OEM.

Secondly is the quality of casting & metals used for these non OEM wheels. The specific chemical formula of the metals used will play a major role in the quality of the wheel. One piece vs two piece vs three piece construction is also important in the wheels construction.

 

How a wheel is created it's inherent weight and how that weight is distributed throughout the wheel will affect rotational mass. The handling characteristics of a wheel are usually only really revealed at the upper limits of ahdhesion.

 

Let me clarify your statement. A light wheel can be made cheap and poor quality. Chemical formula, as in the type of metal used? A high quality light weight wheel is incrementally tested at different degrees of failures during testing. This is extremely expensive but its ultimately the best way to find the best strength to weight ratio per wheel design. Meaning you keep cutting away at the material until it fails.

 

There are government standards such as the US SIA standards, Japan's AWA & JWL standards and Germany's TUV. SIA is the least stringent and in the US it's not required by law to have certification to be road legal. In Japan you need to pass AWA and JWL which are have tougher standards than the US. The highest testing standards is TUV. TUV dictates that 6 sets of wheels are crashed. The certificate is only good for one wheel size (width, hight & offset) for one particular vehicle (LP640 & Murcielago would be considered two different vehicles) and the certification has to be stamped in a visible location on each wheel (used to be on the front). Remember because a wheel passes TUV doesn't mean it's the most expensive wheel on the market. Good ol' steel wheels by American Racing were TUV approved.

 

overall the best in the business when it comes to lightweight forged wheel is RAYS. This is because they start with a raw forging and use a die to cut the wheel from the raw forging. Here is a quote on their technique from their site. Of course this method is the most expensive way of manufacturing.

 

"•Forged One-piece Wheels

A forged wheel is made by forming a wheel under extreme high pressure. The material used is an aluminum billet—a solid piece of dense aluminum. A forging press, a huge machine that exerts thousands of tons of pressure on the metal, basically presses or rolls the billet into its fundamental form. This forging is then machined to final finish. This process allows wheels to be built with much less material, allowing for lighter weight and unique designs, because the process creates a much stronger wheel than other methods. Many premium wheels are made using forging technology. "

 

As long as you have the same overall diameter, tire width and your load rating is correct and the wheel you have is built to at least AWA/JWL/TUV standards you'll be fine.

Technigues to make tough wheels have been made available to larger group of makers between the last 10 years or so it is not anymore the blackmagic it used to be. then again design of wheels, sizes, wheel loads and accelerative forces have all gone to extreme as well so in a way it is even more difficult than it used to be.

Also remember that many of the companies who do oem wheels do also aftermarket wheels to same high standards and testing.

Let me clarify your statement. A light wheel can be made cheap and poor quality. Chemical formula, as in the type of metal used? A high quality light weight wheel is incrementally tested at different degrees of failures during testing. This is extremely expensive but its ultimately the best way to find the best strength to weight ratio per wheel design. Meaning you keep cutting away at the material until it fails.

 

There are government standards such as the US SIA standards, Japan's AWA & JWL standards and Germany's TUV. SIA is the least stringent and in the US it's not required by law to have certification to be road legal. In Japan you need to pass AWA and JWL which are have tougher standards than the US. The highest testing standards is TUV. TUV dictates that 6 sets of wheels are crashed. The certificate is only good for one wheel size (width, hight & offset) for one particular vehicle (LP640 & Murcielago would be considered two different vehicles) and the certification has to be stamped in a visible location on each wheel (used to be on the front). Remember because a wheel passes TUV doesn't mean it's the most expensive wheel on the market. Good ol' steel wheels by American Racing were TUV approved.

 

overall the best in the business when it comes to lightweight forged wheel is RAYS. This is because they start with a raw forging and use a die to cut the wheel from the raw forging. Here is a quote on their technique from their site. Of course this method is the most expensive way of manufacturing.

 

"•Forged One-piece Wheels

A forged wheel is made by forming a wheel under extreme high pressure. The material used is an aluminum billet—a solid piece of dense aluminum. A forging press, a huge machine that exerts thousands of tons of pressure on the metal, basically presses or rolls the billet into its fundamental form. This forging is then machined to final finish. This process allows wheels to be built with much less material, allowing for lighter weight and unique designs, because the process creates a much stronger wheel than other methods. Many premium wheels are made using forging technology. "

 

As long as you have the same overall diameter, tire width and your load rating is correct and the wheel you have is built to at least AWA/JWL/TUV standards you'll be fine.

 

Yes. The overall diameter to factory specs does make the wheel ok relative to not damaging the drivetrain. However, to clarify its not the wheel itself but the lower aspect ratio tires on the aftermarket wheels. By upsizing the wheels and tires and lowering the aspect ratio, you are creating less sidewall flexing, which when at the limit of adhesion on a mid engine car will have less warning than a higher aspect ratio tire. With the murcie already having really low aspect ratio on tires, going larger and reducing it further actually reduces the safety net of the car. This might also be compounded by drivers with the larger wheels/lower aspect ratio tires thinking that it has even more traction than their factory setup. This false perception might be why murcie drivers with larger wheels might get into accidents more? That is where the real danger lies and not the wheel itself.

Technigues to make tough wheels have been made available to larger group of makers between the last 10 years or so it is not anymore the blackmagic it used to be. then again design of wheels, sizes, wheel loads and accelerative forces have all gone to extreme as well so in a way it is even more difficult than it used to be.

Also remember that many of the companies who do oem wheels do also aftermarket wheels to same high standards and testing.

 

OT I find it so hard to take your posts seriously when I look at your avatar

I laugh every time I see it.

Sorry please carry on.

Yes sidewall flex is a valid point, that's why you need to check the load rating on the tire. There are irresponsible tire companies offering rubber band thin tires that are not sufficient enough for the load bearing stress put on them.

Yes sidewall flex is a valid point, that's why you need to check the load rating on the tire. There are irresponsible tire companies offering rubber band thin tires that are not sufficient enough for the load bearing stress put on them.

I think its not so much as the load rating though. Load rating mainly governs the weight in which a tire could support. The key components to tire selection are the tire's compound composition in terms of hardness as well as at limit tire adhesion behavior. With up sizing to 20s for murcies there really is no way to change things other than to lower the aspect ratio on the rears without effecting speedo and odometer accuracy(not that Lambos are accurate to begin with...lol) And with that change, the handling characteristics will change for sure. Even if you went with a super soft compound with stable at limit adhesion characteristics, it only rectifies part of the problem. The main issue would still be aspect ratio and the changes it does to handling behavior.

OT I find it so hard to take your posts seriously when I look at your avatar

I laugh every time I see it.

Sorry please carry on.

 

Hahaha xD Thanx!

 

Good then, I heard you had an open vacation here for new clown?

 

Serously, it is mr bean's avatar but I stole it.

As a side note be sure to check your lug bolts and air pressure constantly regardless of wheel/tire manufacturer.

 

I have heard of old lug bolts that have been overtightened time and time again sheer off at speed and send the wheel rolling down the highway. In fact a friends GF was nearly killed as a result...

 

In many circles lug bolts are considered wear items, and so are wheels for that matter. And please, if you are planning on driving above highway speeds, get your car inspected by a professional at least once a year. Cheap insurance.