Brexit

Democracy is great unless I don't get what I want and I'll try circumvent it.

 

 

Not sure he actually said it but??????????

 

 

 

 

 

Not sure he actually said it but??????????

 

 

 

It's so true. But where is the line drawn on it no longer being democracy and becomes dictatorship? Who decides who the decision makers are? How can it be impartial?

 

Thus is just a product of years of exasperation by people of an untrustworthy political system. (Not just the UK but also Trump, and even what has been happening in Australia) It's probably insensitive on some level to say, but I'm finding this all super amusing.

Can the referendum be overruled if someone with half a brain figures out that they've really stuffed up?

As if all the research, conducted prior, on the financial loss in the event of leaving wasn't enough.

 

Just curious.

Referendum is not binding, its simply a consultation, the Parliament is the deciding body and it has the legal right to disregard it. It was a half witted decision to hold it but I'm sure they all thought leave was never going to win. Aside from that the UK doesn't traditionally use direct democracy, in some countries that do, for such important decisions to be legally binding there is usually a minimum voter turn out and important life altering stuff like this requires a super majority say at least 66%.

It's so true. But where is the line drawn on it no longer being democracy and becomes dictatorship? Who decides who the decision makers are? How can it be impartial?

 

Thus is just a product of years of exasperation by people of an untrustworthy political system. (Not just the UK but also Trump, and even what has been happening in Australia) It's probably insensitive on some level to say, but I'm finding this all super amusing.

Democracy doesnt mean 'tyranny of the majority'. I'll bet you I can find at least a dozen scenarios which the majority would vote for that are completely opposed to any democratic principles. The majority will happily trample a minorities rights if it weren't for the safeguards built into western political systems. It's why countries have parliaments. Otherwise we'd just have a tyranny of the mob, because they are the majority.

Democracy doesnt mean 'tyranny of the majority'. I'll bet you I can find at least a dozen scenarios which the majority would vote for that are completely opposed to any democratic principles. The majority will happily trample a minorities rights if it weren't for the safeguards built into western political systems. It's why countries have parliaments. Otherwise we'd just have a tyranny of the mob, because they are the majority.

 

 

I believe the dictionary definition of democracy is in fact

 

"control of an organization or group by the majority of its members."

 

I know we're talking 52/48 split in terms of the Brexit issue here, but still a majority.

 

There will be all the arguments under the sun that you can make to plead a case like

 

1: some people don't understand

2: the arguments were false/misleading

3: voting is not compulsory

4: it's just xenophobia

 

Etc, but the fact remains that this was all performed under a framework put in place by governments who have been elected to represent your better interests, and was in fact a result of David Cameron's own hubris to call such a vote. Although I'm not sure of the ins and outs of the legalities of implementation of referendums (thanks for that info above) there is a question of when it is right to disregard the majority's wishes. When do you become a dictatorship by ignoring your people?

 

Ihave no horse in the race except that my investments are down around 3% right now. But if democratic decisions are overruled by meddling and whinging by the noisy minority it still calls into question the efficacy of a political system. The brexit issue aside I know I personally am fed up with vocal minorities and the PC brigade having greater influence on matters than what is in the interest of everyone (I. E. No peanut butter sandwiches for scool kids, or environmental groups stopping major public projects which are for the benefit of everyone, because they want to bird watch or some similar stupid thing). It just appears in the case of the Brexit the majority have decided on the outcome that some perceive is not best for everyone.

 

It sure is entertaining to watch. Soon to be followed by

 

Frexit, Nexit & Czexit votes for our entertainment.

I believe the dictionary definition of democracy is in fact

 

"control of an organization or group by the majority of its members."

 

I know we're talking 52/48 split in terms of the Brexit issue here, but still a majority.

 

There will be all the arguments under the sun that you can make to plead a case like

 

1: some people don't understand

2: the arguments were false/misleading

3: voting is not compulsory

4: it's just xenophobia

 

Etc, but the fact remains that this was all performed under a framework put in place by governments who have been elected to represent your better interests, and was in fact a result of David Cameron's own hubris to call such a vote.

 

I have no horse in the race except that my investments are down around 3% right now. But if democratic decisions are overruled by the noisy minority it still calls into question the efficacy of a political system. The brexit issue aside I know I personally am fed up with vocal minorities and the PC brigade having greater influence on matters than what is in the interest of everyone (I. E. No peanut butter sandwiches for scool kids, or environmental groups stopping major public projects which are for the benefit of everyone, because they want to bird watch or some similar stupid thing). It just appears in the case of the Brexit the majority have decided on the outcome that is not best for everyone.

 

It sure is entertaining to watch.

 

The irony is that the majority voted against it's own interests. Sometimes unpopular decisions are in the interests of the people, as an elected politician you have a duty to act in the country's best interests. If this were a vote specifically on immigration I'd agree with the result, but it wasn't supposed to be that. It was turned into that by a bunch cynical politicians who's only goal was to gain political capital. They lied and distorted facts to scare people into voting leave. As you can see they've backtracked on every major promise of the 'leave' campaign in 48 hours after the vote, immigration included. It was totally irresponsible of them. You understand the subtlety of this, I hope. It was a dishonest vote, and a campaign hijacked by petty interests.

 

I don't have any stake in this, the UK to me is just a vacation spot, and I occasionally order stuff from amazon uk, that's about the extent of my direct interest, it doesn't affect me one bit, but I still feel what happened is profoundly wrong. On the bright side, perhaps I'll be seeing less british tourists in the future, as it will become more expensive for them to travel. I absolutely loathe them, some of the worst behaving.

The irony is that the majority voted against it's own interests. Sometimes unpopular decisions are in the interests of the people, as an elected politician you have a duty to act in the country's best interests. If this were a vote specifically on immigration I'd agree with the result, but it wasn't supposed to be that. It was turned into that by a bunch cynical politicians who's only goal was to gain political capital. They lied and distorted facts to scare people into voting leave. As you can see they've backtracked on every major promise of the 'leave' campaign in 48 hours after the vote, immigration included. It was totally irresponsible of them. You understand the subtlety of this, I hope. It was a dishonest vote, and a campaign hijacked by petty interests.

 

I don't have any stake in this, the UK to me is just a vacation spot, and I occasionally order stuff from amazon uk, that's about the extent of my direct interest, it doesn't affect me one bit, but I still feel what happened is profoundly wrong. On the bright side, perhaps I'll be seeing less british tourists in the future, as it will become more expensive for them to travel. I absolutely loathe them, some of the worst behaving.

 

I understand everything you're saying Ameer, and agree with much of it too. the reality is it has happened, and for better or worse (probably worse) it may make politicians, not just in the UK, but other countries take stock of what people want. as you say the main issue in peoples minds is immigration and sending money overseas. Governments all over the world have taken too weak of a stance on it by the opinions of most people (those fortunate enough to be in a stable free and secure country), and those people desperate for some action, as most Governments seemingly are too weak willed to be hardasses about it. In the case of the Brexit, something was presented that to the average punter seemed like a chance to have a voice over a peripherally related issue. It's just the blowout from too much political correctness and too much pandering to the 'bleeding hearts' that people have become fed up with and they're desperate for change (even if they don't know what that may cost them).

.

 

Democracy should be, you can vote if you have a certain IQ and you contribute financially to society via taxes, the more tax you pay the higher the numbers of votes you acquire, if I pay you bills and you are just a sponge you should STFU and let the smart providers do the talking.

 

 

 

Democracy should be, you can vote if you have a certain IQ and you contribute financially to society via taxes, the more tax you pay the higher the numbers of votes you acquire, if I pay you bills and you are just a sponge you should STFU and let the smart providers do the talking.

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

Or perhaps you need to apply for a license to vote by passing a test of comon sense, reasoning & means testing.

I couldn't agree more.

 

Or perhaps you need to apply for a license to vote by passing a test of coming sense, reasoning & means testing.

 

Or maybe you should be made responsible for your decisions, if your favorite party screws up the budget the voters bring money from home

Britain did fine as a sovereign nation for almost 800 years... Despite their obsession with royalty and weak chins... It will be just fine moving forward as one again.

 

 

 

Aren't you forgetting why? Unless they plan to colonize our galaxy, I just don't know where $ is going to come from. From what I hear Brits aren't exactly rolling in money...and once the financial sector gets cut, it'll just get worse. Anyway, 2 years ago 1k GBP was $1700. Now $1340. Once it's even lower I'll finally be able to afford to enjoy London

 

 

 

QUOTE (Fortis @ Jun 29 2016, 07:09 PM) *

Democracy should be, you can vote if you have a certain IQ and you contribute financially to society via taxes, the more tax you pay the higher the numbers of votes you acquire, if I pay you bills and you are just a sponge you should STFU and let the smart providers do the talking.

Thats what you call an oligarchy and essentially already is happening around the world.

Bilionaires are buying politicians which in return keep the people dumb, uneducated and in constant fear of something so that they get reelected. Sooner or later they have no other choice but tor vote for stupid shit(Trump, Brexit and so on) to break the cycle.

Education is the key.

Anyway, 2 years ago 1k GBP was $1700. Now $1340. Once it's even lower I'll finally be able to afford to enjoy London

 

.

Thats what you call an oligarchy and essentially already is happening around the world.

Bilionaires are buying politicians which in return keep the people dumb, uneducated and in constant fear of something so that they get reelected. Sooner or later they have no other choice but tor vote for stupid shit(Trump, Brexit and so on) to break the cycle.

Education is the key.

 

I don't understand how buying politicians keeps the people dumb. Education is available at every level some get it, some don't and some have very little to no interest in getting it.

 

There is always the view that people with money are evil and got their money illicitly (if I can't do it it must be impossible, I work hard, I try very hard, there is no way anyone can amass that much wealth without doing something illegal, it is impossible) that is so not the case, of course there are exceptions to the rule but majority of successful people aren't buying politicians or appeal to corruption to go forward.

 

One thing which everyone forgets is that successful/wealthy people make the financial world go round, create jobs, opportunities, which in turn puts food on the table, you know, those tangible things which everyone needs daily.

 

I really don't get the loser attitude, personally I had zero and I made a lot, plenty stood in my way, same opportunity is available to everyone I meet daily, I'd say even more opportunities are available because I had no language or a solid base to start from, I had to create that for myself first, please do not tell me there is no education or opportunity because I am here to tell you that's wrong, at least in civilized countries there are plenty opportunities, the not so lucky countries are always out for handouts anyway, whom do they turn their hands to when in need? To those successful countries with plenty evil wealthy people, because only those can afford to put their hands in their pockets and hand out money.

 

IMO the majority have given up on their dreams and aspirations, they've become complacent and decided to settle, everything is too hard, they'd rather scream for entitlements and point the finger to those who bust their asses day in and out putting in 12 to 15 hour days sometimes 7 days a week. That is the issue IMO, which if that's what you've decided for yourself is fine by me but you shouldn't complain, that's the destiny you've selected for yourself.

 

 

I don't understand how buying politicians keeps the people dumb. Education is available at every level some get it, some don't and some have very little to no interest in getting it.

 

There is always the view that people with money are evil and got their money illicitly (if I can't do it it must be impossible, I work hard, I try very hard, there is no way anyone can amass that much wealth without doing something illegal, it is impossible) that is so not the case, of course there are exceptions to the rule but majority of successful people aren't buying politicians or appeal to corruption to go forward.

 

One thing which everyone forgets is that successful/wealthy people make the financial world go round, create jobs, opportunities, which in turn puts food on the table, you know, those tangible things which everyone needs daily.

 

I really don't get the loser attitude, personally I had zero and I made a lot, plenty stood in my way, same opportunity is available to everyone I meet daily, I'd say even more opportunities are available because I had no language or a solid base to start from, I had to create that for myself first, please do not tell me there is no education or opportunity because I am here to tell you that's wrong, at least in civilized countries there are plenty opportunities, the not so lucky countries are always out for handouts anyway, whom do they turn their hands to when in need? To those successful countries with plenty evil wealthy people, because only those can afford to put their hands in their pockets and hand out money.

 

IMO the majority have given up on their dreams and aspirations, they've become complacent and decided to settle, everything is too hard, they'd rather scream for entitlements and point the finger to those who bust their asses day in and out putting in 12 to 15 hour days sometimes 7 days a week. That is the issue IMO, which if that's what you've decided for yourself is fine by me but you shouldn't complain, that's the destiny you've selected for yourself.

 

 

1000% agree

I don't know that much about the subject, but since the markets got so volatile I went and sold some of my MNST stock on the upswing today in case I need some cash on hand for potential egear issues. Interesting to see the market swings, as I thought there would be more continuous dumping.

.

Don't be too quick to draw conclusions, for the moment and the medium term, nothing has changed between the UK and EU, they are still in it, companies are still going strong. But there will be pain, unless access to EU market is preserved. FTSE 250 is still 8% down since Thursday.

There is always the view that people with money are evil and got their money illicitly (if I can't do it it must be impossible, I work hard, I try very hard, there is no way anyone can amass that much wealth without doing something illegal, it is impossible) that is so not the case, of course there are exceptions to the rule but majority of successful people aren't buying politicians or appeal to corruption to go forward.

 

One thing which everyone forgets is that successful/wealthy people make the financial world go round, create jobs, opportunities, which in turn puts food on the table, you know, those tangible things which everyone needs daily.

 

I really don't get the loser attitude, personally I had zero and I made a lot, plenty stood in my way, same opportunity is available to everyone I meet daily, I'd say even more opportunities are available because I had no language or a solid base to start from, I had to create that for myself first, please do not tell me there is no education or opportunity because I am here to tell you that's wrong, at least in civilized countries there are plenty opportunities, the not so lucky countries are always out for handouts anyway, whom do they turn their hands to when in need? To those successful countries with plenty evil wealthy people, because only those can afford to put their hands in their pockets and hand out money.

 

IMO the majority have given up on their dreams and aspirations, they've become complacent and decided to settle, everything is too hard, they'd rather scream for entitlements and point the finger to those who bust their asses day in and out putting in 12 to 15 hour days sometimes 7 days a week. That is the issue IMO, which if that's what you've decided for yourself is fine by me but you shouldn't complain, that's the destiny you've selected for yourself.

 

I explained my self once here, just a quick summary: Me and my family came to europe as immigrants with ZERO in our pockets. Now we have a successful busniess and are doing pretty well(I wouldn´t say wealthy quite yet, but soon... ) build with nothing but long houres of hard work.

So much in regards to loser attitude.

 

BUT, if you don´t belive that there is a whole class of super wealthy people(I will be one of them one day no doubt) who are trying to keep the poor down and uneducated to move forward their own agende of geting rich even quicker than you simply don´t understand human behaviour. You always want to atleast keep what you have and build upon it. Human nature. Just look at all the super pac money in US politics. You think all of it is distributed fairly and equally within the different political agendas? You think the koch brother donate money to change legislation to create a safer work place for their workers? Better education for the children of their wokers? Or do they donate/buy politicians to get tax breaks and subsidies?

What´s more likely, tell me?

 

Don´t make the assumption that because you are that way, everyone else is that way.

The world is full of selfish, bitter, miserable assholes without a brain who never have enough of anything.

 

I don't understand how buying politicians keeps the people dumb. Education is available at every level some get it, some don't and some have very little to no interest in getting it.

Just a quick example:

My son one day won´t have the same education as I had. I didn´t have the means for privat schools, he will.

Also education is heavily bought at a political level and at the media level.

I explained my self once here, just a quick summary: Me and my family came to europe as immigrants with ZERO in our pockets. Now we have a successful busniess and are doing pretty well(I wouldn´t say wealthy quite yet, but soon... ) build with nothing but long houres of hard work.

So much in regards to loser attitude.

 

BUT, if you don´t belive that there is a whole class of super wealthy people(I will be one of them one day no doubt) who are trying to keep the poor down and uneducated to move forward their own agende of geting rich even quicker than you simply don´t understand human behaviour. You always want to atleast keep what you have and build upon it. Human nature. Just look at all the super pac money in US politics. You think all of it is distributed fairly and equally within the different political agendas? You think the koch brother donate money to change legislation to create a safer work place for their workers? Better education for the children of their wokers? Or do they donate/buy politicians to get tax breaks and subsidies?

What´s more likely, tell me?

 

Don´t make the assumption that because you are that way, everyone else is that way.

The world is full of selfish, bitter, miserable assholes without a brain who never have enough of anything.

 

 

Just a quick example:

My son one day won´t have the same education as I had. I didn´t have the means for privat schools, he will.

Also education is heavily bought at a political level and at the media level.

 

Your son has the internet, which you didn't have. Literally anything you could want to know is at you fingertips. It's not the state's job to educate the youth beyond the minimum, so don't expect to put someone through the system and have them come out exceptional. With the amount of sheer knowledge that there is available for anything and everything there's virtually no excuse now.

I explained my self once here, just a quick summary: Me and my family came to europe as immigrants with ZERO in our pockets. Now we have a successful busniess and are doing pretty well(I wouldn´t say wealthy quite yet, but soon... ) build with nothing but long houres of hard work.

So much in regards to loser attitude.

 

BUT, if you don´t belive that there is a whole class of super wealthy people(I will be one of them one day no doubt) who are trying to keep the poor down and uneducated to move forward their own agende of geting rich even quicker than you simply don´t understand human behaviour. You always want to atleast keep what you have and build upon it. Human nature. Just look at all the super pac money in US politics. You think all of it is distributed fairly and equally within the different political agendas? You think the koch brother donate money to change legislation to create a safer work place for their workers? Better education for the children of their wokers? Or do they donate/buy politicians to get tax breaks and subsidies?

What´s more likely, tell me?

 

Don´t make the assumption that because you are that way, everyone else is that way.

The world is full of selfish, bitter, miserable assholes without a brain who never have enough of anything.

 

 

Just a quick example:

My son one day won´t have the same education as I had. I didn´t have the means for privat schools, he will.

Also education is heavily bought at a political level and at the media level.

 

Let me clarify, when I said "loser attitude" that wasn't addressed to you it was a generalization.

 

I don't think the super wealthy focus on "trying to keep the poor down and uneducated to move forward" it would be counterproductive and not enough revenue would be gained from such moves, not saying they aren't doing it but I don't think anyone would focus specifically on it.

 

I am not aware of your situation but based on few interactions here I think in order for you to move to the next big step you might need a mindset adjustment, please don't take this as criticism just an observation on my part, I wish you nothing but absolute success.

 

 

 

? You think the koch brother donate money to change legislation to create a safer work place for their workers? Better education for the children of their wokers? Or do they donate/buy politicians to get tax breaks and subsidies?

What´s more likely, tell me?

 

In 2014, Koch Industries Inc. and the Charles Koch Foundation granted $25 million to the United Negro College Fund (UNCF)

David Koch donated $35 million in 2012 to the Smithsonian’s Natural History Museum and $20 million to the American Museum of Natural History in New York

they "have pledged or contributed more than $1.2 billion dollars to educational institutions and cultural institutions, cancer research, medical centers, and to assist public policy organizations

 

BUUUUT obviously they're just part of a giant conspiracy to keep poor people stupid and unhappy

I don't think the super wealthy focus on "trying to keep the poor down and uneducated to move forward" it would be counterproductive and not enough revenue would be gained from such moves, not saying they aren't doing it but I don't think anyone would focus specifically on it.

I made some extreme examples to get my point across.

So none of you think it would be a problem if only the ich and powerful could vote?

lol

In 2014, Koch Industries Inc. and the Charles Koch Foundation granted $25 million to the United Negro College Fund (UNCF)

David Koch donated $35 million in 2012 to the Smithsonian’s Natural History Museum and $20 million to the American Museum of Natural History in New York

they "have pledged or contributed more than $1.2 billion dollars to educational institutions and cultural institutions, cancer research, medical centers, and to assist public policy organizations

 

BUUUUT obviously they're just part of a giant conspiracy to keep poor people stupid and unhappy

A quick search in google shows you also the other things they are donating for however, nice cherry picking, well done

I made some extreme examples to get my point across.

So none of you think it would be a problem if only the ich and powerful could vote?

lol

 

A quick search in google shows you also the other things they are donating for however, nice cherry picking, well done

 

You are twisting it to suit your agenda, I didn't say rich and powerful I said the smart and the contributors, the smart because they generaly know what's going on and the contributors because they've earned it, it will never happen so relax.

I explained my self once here, just a quick summary: Me and my family came to europe as immigrants with ZERO in our pockets. Now we have a successful busniess and are doing pretty well(I wouldn´t say wealthy quite yet, but soon... ) build with nothing but long houres of hard work.

So much in regards to loser attitude.

 

BUT, if you don´t belive that there is a whole class of super wealthy people(I will be one of them one day no doubt) who are trying to keep the poor down and uneducated to move forward their own agende of geting rich even quicker than you simply don´t understand human behaviour. You always want to atleast keep what you have and build upon it. Human nature. Just look at all the super pac money in US politics. You think all of it is distributed fairly and equally within the different political agendas? You think the koch brother donate money to change legislation to create a safer work place for their workers? Better education for the children of their wokers? Or do they donate/buy politicians to get tax breaks and subsidies?

What´s more likely, tell me?

 

The Koch Brothers are very ideologically right-wing in outlook and philosophy, so I do not believe their actions politically have anything to do with keeping the poor down. They are all about the free market and lobby against things like subsidies.