Are after market wheels the cause of accidents in Murcs?

Last night I was at a photo shoot and someone was talking about Murcielago accidents in general and the most recent fatal accident. He said that in his opinion a large contributing factor is after market wheels causing a mechanical failure and a lockup. He pointed out all the recent accidents and that the cars were after market wheels. Given the sponsors I can see where this could be a touchy topic, but I've not seen it come up before. It could be purely coincidence, it could be a lot of factors, but I thought I'd see what others have to say. Has there been any research done on the subject?

thats interesting.

 

I would like to think that its a coincidence, and mostly pilot error.

Page about Murcielago crashes... Some of them had after market wheels, most of them didn't...

http://www.lambounfall.de/lamborghini-murcielago-crash.html

could just be the type of person who wants aftermarket wheels is a show off type person who may not have the performance driven mods on his plate. I woudl say it is just a coincidence unless people have had issues that didn't result in accidents but can be pointed back to aftermarket wheels. Essentially if rubber is touching pavement a wheel is serving its purpose, different wheels/ tires may decrease peak performance or ride quality but it wouldn't make the car unsafe to drive around town IMO.

I agree,im new to the lambo world,But turning my murcie tight dry pavement,i can feel the real stess on wheels,On my FGTs they have big HP mods

and i had costom wheels made.But i call it summer jewerly,When its time to put down real power,or high speed they come off! And tried and true

stock BBs rims are the only choice.

The theory is that the after market wheels cause unusual wear in the transfer case causing it to suddenly fail, pulling the car to one side, usually the right. Yea it could be like all statistics that the same guy who buys after market wheels is the same guy who's more likely to push the car beyond its limits. While I know some wheels can void the warranty, especially if there is a drastic change in weight or size, I'd never heard this theory before last night- that they alone were a major cause or contributor to accidents. The question came up if Paymans's car had a wheel-induced failure somewhere.

The theory is that the after market wheels cause unusual wear in the transfer case causing it to suddenly fail, pulling the car to one side, usually the right. Yea it could be like all statistics that the same guy who buys after market wheels is the same guy who's more likely to push the car beyond its limits. While I know some wheels can void the warranty, especially if there is a drastic change in weight or size, I'd never heard this theory before last night- that they alone were a major cause or contributor to accidents. The question came up if Paymans's car had a wheel-induced failure somewhere.

 

 

Well we have to remember the braking system is designed for the wheels of a certain weight. Which means things should improve with a lighter wheel, but a heavier wheel will place a greater deal of stress on the rest of the drivetrain.

 

A steel wheel can have a rotational inertia three times that of an aluminum one, all while being dimensionally similar.

 

This can definitely throw the ABS system out of whack, assuming it is designed to operate within a certain set of parameters.

I don't personally know if they did or did not cause an accident. I will say this, from experience, any Lamborghini I have ever driven with aftermarket wheels drives remarkably more poorly than a stock car. It is actually noticable for me. I love wheels, don't get me wrong, I just have never personally ridden in a Lambo where the wheels, right size or wrong, improved or even held even with the factory performance. Just my .02

How much experience, research, thousands of test kilometers, improvements, budget, stresstests, security, reputation of the company will go into the factory wheels?

 

How much of the same will go into aftermarket wheels, which, some times, are adaptable to several cars, with completely different specifications?

 

From my side, I will never (again) change the factory wheels, and not even the tires.

Page about Murcielago crashes... Some of them had after market wheels, most of them didn't...

http://www.lambounfall.de/lamborghini-murcielago-crash.html

I see my old Yellow Murci is on this site now, They report that the accident was due to mechanicle failure as told in the newspaper. What they fail to say is the person that told the newspaper about the failure was the technician who crashed my car.

Invesigations from Lamborghini AND the insurance company both deemed the cause to be driver error, or should I say stupidity as the report showed high revs around a bend with cold tires on a cold day and 4 mins from ignition on.

 

 

 

Russell

I see my old Yellow Murci is on this site now, They report that the accident was due to mechanicle failure as told in the newspaper. What they fail to say is the person that told the newspaper about the failure was the technician who crashed my car.

Invesigations from Lamborghini AND the insurance company both deemed the cause to be driver error, or should I say stupidity as the report showed high revs around a bend with cold tires on a cold day and 4 mins from ignition on.

 

 

The 40th Anniversary Murcie form 08/19/2006 was also a LP-member's car.

 

could just be the type of person who wants aftermarket wheels is a show off type person who may not have the performance driven mods on his plate. I woudl say it is just a coincidence unless people have had issues that didn't result in accidents but can be pointed back to aftermarket wheels. Essentially if rubber is touching pavement a wheel is serving its purpose, different wheels/ tires may decrease peak performance or ride quality but it wouldn't make the car unsafe to drive around town IMO.

How much experience, research, thousands of test kilometers, improvements, budget, stresstests, security, reputation of the company will go into the factory wheels?

 

How much of the same will go into aftermarket wheels, which, some times, are adaptable to several cars, with completely different specifications?

 

From my side, I will never (again) change the factory wheels, and not even the tires.

 

I had dinner with someone from R&D who told me what they went through to make sure the wheels were perfect and the testing was very impressive. I can't see how any after market wheel company could conduct the same level of testing and still make a profit. I guess if someone isn't driving their car hard, it probably doesn't matter, but for me, given how I drive, I'll stick with factory.

BUT Lamborghini doesnt make wheels... The same wheel manufacturers that make the aftermarket wheels do them for them...ie O.Z.

Exactly. That after market company BBS seems to make some good wheels....oh that's right they make them for Formula 1.

 

Just a load of horseshit for people looking for an excuse.

It isn't the making of the wheel but the testing on the car.

The biggest problem with aftermarket wheels is that they are all 100x worse looking than stock.

Exactly. That after market company BBS seems to make some good wheels....oh that's right they make them for Formula 1.

 

Just a load of horseshit for people looking for an excuse.

 

I'd venture to guess tires are significantly more responsible than wheels. I've had a new set of tires drastically change the drive/feel/grip of a car, even if they were new rubber of the same tire they were replacing. If you add in air pressures, road hazzards, wear, etc you are talking a huge factor.

Also you have idiots who put say 21 inch wheels instead of 19s so the car drives on rubber bands instead of tires.

Exactly. That after market company BBS seems to make some good wheels....oh that's right they make them for Formula 1.

 

Just a load of horseshit for people looking for an excuse.

Yup, i rolled over my 512 when i hit some gravel in a corner before I really knew how to drive a mid engine car, i made the mistake of letting off the gas when it started to slide, a mid engine car will swap ends fast..a few track days in my Gallardo has taught me better, and I had stock wheels and tires, and only myself to blame and kicking the windows out and trying to crawl out with gas dripping and a hot engine, ill not forget soon.

It isn't the making of the wheel but the testing on the car.

 

I guess to even further refine it, to make sure everything operates well.

 

Obviously BBS, O.Z, Alcoa, Speedline make great wheels, but I don't think anyone here really considering them in the same league as the "Insert cool noun of the week"-Forged wheels. Those companies are the ones who I often think of when thinking of after market.

 

I was a fan of SDS, as they were one of the few smaller operations who designed a wheel specific for the Gallardo/R8.

 

It is like anything though, don't let a moron touch your stuff. However if you are going to modify it, let someone with experience do it.

With regard to aftermarket wheels.. One of the important factors here is the rolling ratio between the front and back wheels... it needs to be kept the same as factory.

 

And as others have pointed out, some of the aftermarket wheels are crap with crap fit.

Far and away the most important factor in driving accidents is driver ability and error. 99.5% of the time it's too much car for the driver, or the driver is speeding, or the driver is driving too quickly for the weather, or the driver is fatigued, stressed, or under the influence and shouldn't be driving. Or he's distracted, or impatient, following too closely, whatever.

 

Yes deer run out and yes school kids chase bouncing balls in playgrounds but honestly most accidents have to do with dipshit moves on the driver's part and yes I've done my fair share of dumb things and have just been lucky to have not been pinched. Aftermarket wheels aren't typically going to fail doing the speed limit and so really what we're talking about is failures on the track and at the end of the day you've got a street car on the track which isn't exactly a perfect situation and of course we get back to driver's ability and so forth.

 

 

I honestly think that wheels could have played a role in some accidents on Murcies.....

 

Usually when people go aftermarket wheels on the Murci, they dont understand that by going a plus 2 sizing, and reducing the aspect ratio, they are essentially reducing the tires ability to flex and produce a gradual break away at the limits of adhesion. There is a reason why from diablo on up to murcielago that no 19s or even 20s were ever installed on factory lambos despite the availability in size. It is simply because for a mid engine vehicle, once you have crossed the limits of adhesion, it is almost certain to be a spin out where the driver can not recover from. A stock tire set up has enough "thickness" and flex to provide some forewarning to the driver. A 20" with even lower aspect ratio tire will not. And usually when a guy realizes the car's tail is starting slide out, it is too late. Case and point , CGT is like that where the tail happiness has been one of dangers about that car. It is sporting ....20s...

 

Another problem with aftermarket wheels is that the majority of applications for a murcielago has been a 3 piece. With a 3 piece wheel, they are sealed by silicone that can degrade over time and cause sudden loss of air in tires. In the case oa high performance vehicles, where the wheel is subject to high heat in a shorter amount of time, the hot and cold cycles are sharp and much more drastic, effecting the stability of the silicone that keeps the wheel air tight. When silicone seals decides to give, and at high speed, the results can be catastrophic. Keep in mind that 3 piece wheels has been a 70s technology that allows racers to custom fit wheels and adjust offsets to alter the handling characteristics of the vehicle. And usually racers use the wheels only to inspect them after each race.... Only in the past one or two decades has it been widely used for street applications where they are not really checked regularly.. The only best solution for 3 piece is to always check tire pressure regularly and check for slight loss in tire pressure to determine if the silicone is giving.

 

Im not saying that aftermarket wheels are bad. Many manufacturers conform to the standards of TUV, JWL standards. But I highly doubt many boutique wheel makers will actually spend the time and money to test them to meet those standards given the limited sales they can generate from a murcie or even gallardo. IF anything, a good cast wheel with Jwl or TUV stamp approval is far superior to any three piece wheel without those standards in terms of safety and reliability. Lets not forget what these standards mean. These standards are only to wheels that have passed side impact testing, cornering fatigue testing, radial load fatigue testing( fatigue testing) Forget about forged or not, a wheel that doesnt confirm to those standards are not 100% reliable in my opinion... There are some 3 piece wheels that confirm to those standards as well, but still be careful and check the air pressure constantly with a digital pressure reader to detect any slow loss of tire pressure. If you are shopping for a new set of wheels, try to always look for wheels that have either standard to ensure that your wheel is reliable.

I honestly think that wheels could have played a role in some accidents on Murcies.....

 

Usually when people go aftermarket wheels on the Murci, they dont understand that by going a plus 2 sizing, and reducing the aspect ratio, they are essentially reducing the tires ability to flex and produce a gradual break away at the limits of adhesion. There is a reason why from diablo on up to murcielago that no 19s or even 20s were ever installed on factory lambos despite the availability in size. It is simply because for a mid engine vehicle, once you have crossed the limits of adhesion, it is almost certain to be a spin out where the driver can not recover from. A stock tire set up has enough "thickness" and flex to provide some forewarning to the driver. A 20" with even lower aspect ratio tire will not. And usually when a guy realizes the car's tail is starting slide out, it is too late. Case and point , CGT is like that where the tail happiness has been one of dangers about that car. It is sporting ....20s...

 

Another problem with aftermarket wheels is that the majority of applications for a murcielago has been a 3 piece. With a 3 piece wheel, they are sealed by silicone that can degrade over time and cause sudden loss of air in tires. In the case oa high performance vehicles, where the wheel is subject to high heat in a shorter amount of time, the hot and cold cycles are sharp and much more drastic, effecting the stability of the silicone that keeps the wheel air tight. When silicone seals decides to give, and at high speed, the results can be catastrophic. Keep in mind that 3 piece wheels has been a 70s technology that allows racers to custom fit wheels and adjust offsets to alter the handling characteristics of the vehicle. And usually racers use the wheels only to inspect them after each race.... Only in the past one or two decades has it been widely used for street applications where they are not really checked regularly.. The only best solution for 3 piece is to always check tire pressure regularly and check for slight loss in tire pressure to determine if the silicone is giving.

 

Im not saying that aftermarket wheels are bad. Many manufacturers conform to the standards of TUV, JWL standards. But I highly doubt many boutique wheel makers will actually spend the time and money to test them to meet those standards given the limited sales they can generate from a murcie or even gallardo. IF anything, a good cast wheel with Jwl or TUV stamp approval is far superior to any three piece wheel without those standards in terms of safety and reliability. Lets not forget what these standards mean. These standards are only to wheels that have passed side impact testing, cornering fatigue testing, radial load fatigue testing( fatigue testing) Forget about forged or not, a wheel that doesnt confirm to those standards are not 100% reliable in my opinion... There are some 3 piece wheels that confirm to those standards as well, but still be careful and check the air pressure constantly with a digital pressure reader to detect any slow loss of tire pressure. If you are shopping for a new set of wheels, try to always look for wheels that have either standard to ensure that your wheel is reliable.

 

Great info! Why I LOVE this site.