7.2 quake rocks japan

I backed out of this thread for awhile because of the amount of misinformation or conjecture. I have to step back in to clear this one up. "China Syndrome" was disproved along time ago. Lets all try and keep from posting things we don't know about or don't have any solid links or references to back up.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_syndrome

 

I never knew what that term meant before.... Preposterous.

Japan crisus reaches new levels

 

Triggering the new levels of alarm were comments by U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Chairman Gregory Jaczko in Congress on Wednesday. "There is no water in the spent fuel pool and we believe that radiation levels are extremely high, which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures," he said.

On the China Syndrome bit I am a bit confused, I can see how the notion that the core would melt through the Earth all the way to China is fake because even if the core could do that, it wouldn't come out in China. However, is the notion that the core could go into the earth and sink deep enough to hit pockets of water and/or fossil fuels and cause explosions and contamination, fake?

On the China Syndrome bit I am a bit confused, I can see how the notion that the core would melt through the Earth all the way to China is fake because even if the core could do that, it wouldn't come out in China. However, is the notion that the core could go into the earth and sink deep enough to hit pockets of water and/or fossil fuels and cause explosions and contamination, fake?

 

Great question. You hit on one of the more famous issues which is the mistake belief that China is on the other side of the US. It would actually come out in the ocean. As for the technical answer I will work my way backwards (I am on my phone so I will grab supporting links once I am back home to back up my answers).

 

1. If the reactor core managed to melt all the way through the earth's crust it wouldn't continue to melt out the other side. The earth's gravity would be working against it at that point and the reactor core would be stuck at the earth's core. Think about it....if you are in a cave on the other side of the world you can't fall back out to the surface...you would fall down towards the center of the earth.

 

2. If the core managed to melt to the core of the earth it would disperse into the molten core of the earth and the reaction would cease to take place.

 

3. If the reactor core was able to melt through the containment building and start to melt through the earth's crust it would stop roughly 10 meters into the earth. Once it hit the ground the ground would start to act like a heat sink sap the heat energy from the reactor core. Roughly 10 meters in and it would stop melting through the crust.

 

 

Great question. You hit on one of the more famous issues which is the mistake belief that China is on the other side of the US. It would actually come out in the ocean.

 

And I am guessing it would come out in a southern hemisphere too, since the Earth is a globe and the U.S. is in the Northern hemisphere, then the way the continents are angled, if you went straight through the ground, you wouldn't come out the northern hemisphere directly on the other side, you'd come out in the Southern hemisphere on the other side I would think.

 

As for the technical answer I will work my way backwards (I am on my phone so I will grab supporting links once I am back home to back up my answers).

 

1. If the reactor core managed to melt all the way through the earth's crust it wouldn't continue to melt out the other side. The earth's gravity would be working against it at that point and the reactor core would be stuck at the earth's core. Think about it....if you are in a cave on the other side of the world you can't fall back out to the surface...you would fall down towards the center of the earth.

 

2. If the core managed to melt to the core of the earth it would disperse into the molten core of the earth and the reaction would cease to take place.

 

3. If the reactor core was able to melt through the containment building and start to melt through the earth's crust it would stop roughly 10 meters into the earth. Once it hit the ground the ground would start to act like a heat sink sap the heat energy from the reactor core. Roughly 10 meters in and it would stop melting through the crust.

 

I see, thanks for the info!

If this is of any value to anyone:

 

Been on the phones with many friends in Japan for the pass few days and here's what's happening.

 

Everywhere west of Nagoya (central Japan), i.e. Osaka, Kobe, Hiroshima, Fukuoka, Kagoshima are business as usual although people are praying, sending money and cutting back on power consumption to ease off the power grid. Hokkaido, the northern island itself is fine although the southern tip Aiomori had sustained damages to their marine food products industry. Dried marine foods (scallops, abalone, various fishes) wholesalers in SE Asia had already jacked up their prices in the order of magnitude. Sendai, where the quake did the most damages, does have manufacturing facilities but in much smaller scale than say Nagoya. E.g. Nikon has a factory in Sendai but only the top-end SLR & D-SLR bodies are made there (i.e. it's not Nikon's bread & butter). But there are many research institutes (as in academia) in Sendai so that might be compromised.

 

Meanwhile in Tokyo, with the imminent situation at the Fukushima nuclear power plant, people are starting to get a bit edgy but no one is losing control or patience --- it's just not in part of the Japanese cultural upbringing. In fact, a bit of the contrary, the government issued a rolling black out to ease off the power grid strain. On the first day, there was some minor chaos as people were buying all sort of things off the shelves for various supermarkets and convenience stores --- flash light and batteries are flying off the shelves for obvious reasons. Even toilet paper at one point was on high demand. But on the 3rd day of the rolling black out, supplies from the rest of the countries were coming in and all is well. How long before the reserves run out I do not know. On the 4th day, the rolling black out order was no longer necessary; the shops and businesses were voluntarily closing earlier and turning off their signs to assist on the blackout. As to the line-up on gasoline, yes, there will always be a few who worry on everything but it is also in their nature to line-up for things. Keep in mind on how densely populated Japan is especially in Tokyo and if they all line up in an orderly fashion (which they do), the line will appear very long. I have witnessed many many times huge line-ups on a US junk food chain stores in Japan and those they always give me a chuckle --- literally dozens of people line-up orderly and patiently for Krispy Kream Donuts! So all of the media images of people at long line-ups are certainly sensationalized. Ask anyone who has been to Tokyo and visited the department stores food floors 1 hour before closing and you'll know what I mean. (Department stores food floors usually offer 20% discount on all of their daily perishable goods during the last hour of the business days. It really is all in a day's work.)

 

As to the Fukushima Power Plant, no expert here so I can't say too much. But the "Fukushima 50" as they are known are the current national heros --- some volunteered to stay behind while some were asked to stay; no one declined. I also believe that there might be more than 50 people. Don't know whether they are/were part of the group or not but 2 are already dead (don't know of the causes), 3 are missing after one of the fires and a few has been injured (don't know the severity). The latest attempt is to use a military chopper to drop water onto the fuel rods from above and then followed by a spray from a special-purpose water truck on the ground. What I don't understand is why aren't the Japanese calling for international expert assistance. Is it a national pride/cultural thing? Perhaps but facing with such extremities, it would make sense to lose face than lives. But then again, honour to the Japanese is of utmost importance and ranks even higher than mortality.

 

People are starting to display some personal emotions which is rather rare. Signs are not good when even the emperor appeared on tv to make his remarks. But it's far from pandemonium and they are a resilient bunch. As said before, it's not the first or the 20th time that they have faced adversity; so they'll be back. It might take a while this time around but they'll come back.

 

I just hope that we are not going to get too many con man on this side of the Earth using the disaster to scam people with fake donations and bogus relief funds to make a quick buck. And, finally, prayers go out to the people in Japan.

What I don't understand is why aren't the Japanese calling for international expert assistance. Is it a national pride/cultural thing? Perhaps but facing with such extremities, it would make sense to lose face than lives. But then again, honour to the Japanese is of utmost importance and ranks even higher than mortality.

No long ago, Louisiana refused to accept help from the Federal Government after Katrina (then subsequently criticized the Fed. Gov. for not acting).

 

Local refusal to ask for, or accept assistance in the wake of a disaster is definitely not something new and not isolated to our Japanese friends.

I got off the phone a little while ago with one of my "sources".

 

He says the thing with the helicopters dropping water = No Bueno. They wouldnt be doing that if they had any better ideas.

 

He expects to see another explosion soon. This time with "Sparks shooting into the sky like fireworks".

 

That will be the fuel rods.

 

The Japanese government has mandated that ANY communications regarding the incident to the media be cleared through the Prime Ministers office first. Bad juju fellas.

 

US State dept has urged Americans in japan (including apparently the assets of the 7th fleet) to evacuate to at least 50 miles away from the facility.

 

UK has issued the same order.

 

 

May be somebody does not know, but Japan government already asked help to everybody for Fukushima: USA, European AIEA, France

 

At the time of Cernobyl disaster (1986) i was a 24 year old student at Bologna Univesity, studying the field "machines" examination where there was an huge part on the Nuclear power plant. Teacher spent a lot of time to explain us that Cernobyl reactor was just an old obsolete PWR graphite reactor and now (1986) there were very safe BWR reactors. He did the example of a new japanese power plant, showing us the architecture of that japanese big nuclear power plant near Tokyo: may be it was Fukushima power plant, i do not remember.

 

I'm sure that in the future the field "machines" teacher at University of Bologna (and at others university in the world ) will tell to future power plant engineers (like i am) about Fukushima more or less the same: "Fukushima was just an old BWR plant, now we have very safe different kind of reactors".

 

This Fukushima disaster could turn in a much more bigger disaster than Cernobyl, as there are six reactors involved and damaged and not just one: Cernobyl immediately blown up due also to big human mistakes made by the URSS technicians, but this could release more radiocative fallout than Cernobyl, spread on months and not in five minutes like Cernobyl did, but the total amount of fallout could be much more higher.

 

Nobody can say what will happen, i wish they can control it and cool down, but the probability are all against them: it's by far easier that the reactor completely melts and slowly totally damages the shell (that proved to be very well built indeed), spreading out the radioactivity.

 

I hope to be wrong, but unfortunately up to now i was not.

 

ciao

What will happen after meltdown ? theoretically

He says the thing with the helicopters dropping water = No Bueno. They wouldnt be doing that if they had any better ideas.

 

Yep, and as of 10:40am Japan Standard Time, 6:40pm PDT for us, radiation levels of 10,000 microsieverts (10 millisieverts) per hour were recorded at the main entrance to the Fukushima plant likely due to the radioactive steam.

 

Oh shi...

 

I believe the Fukushima reactors were built in 1969.

What will happen after meltdown ? theoretically

Im afraid were going to find out together.

What's the deal with all the cooling ponds? Is there a cooling pond with X amount of spent fuel rods alongside each reactor or just a couple of them? And what might X be relative to what is inside a reactor?

The latest I've read is that a new power line (or something related to powering the cooling systems) has been created and will attempt to be used later today. Hopefully it works and they'll be able restart the cooling processes.

Over at the PhysicsForums site, the nuke engineer there said that the plant would be operating normally right now, what happened was when the electrical grid shut down, the emergency diesel generators kicked on, but then the tsunami took out the fuel supply to the EDGs and some of the electrical work, so the cooling was stopped, and if the fuel supply had been located on the other side of the plant, away from the ocean, and the electrical system about 10m off the ground, all would be well.

 

 

What's the deal with all the cooling ponds? Is there a cooling pond with X amount of spent fuel rods alongside each reactor or just a couple of them? And what might X be relative to what is inside a reactor?

 

"The Fukushima Daiichi plant has seven pools dedicated to spent fuel rods. These are located at the top of six reactor buildings – or were until explosions and fires ravaged the plant. On the ground level there is a common pool in a separate building that was critically damaged by the tsunami. Each reactor building pool holds 3,450 fuel rod assemblies and the common pool holds 6,291 fuel rod assemblies. Each assembly holds sixty-three fuel rods. In short, the Fukushima Daiichi plant contains over 600,000 spent fuel rods – a massive amount of radiation that will soon be released into the atmosphere".

 

Those things that were blown hundreds of feet in the air on the news were bits of the spent rods and housing. I kinda freaking out here because if you inhale one tiny dust particle that has been radiated with the radioactive Uranium or Plutonium, you will die! If a dust particle blows over a spent fuel rod it will get radiated. That particle will enter your lungs and radiate your whole entire body. Probably make Ebola look like a paper cut.

 

With that being said, the radiation levels in Tokyo have not gone crazy yet. Is it because the strong winds and the jet stream are blowing it over the Pacific Ocean? Is that crap coming to the west coast of the US next?

Benkei is your family ok?

 

I remember you mentioned you couldn't get hold of them.

Benkei is your family ok?

 

I remember you mentioned you couldn't get hold of them.

 

Yes, thanks for asking My mum lives in Tokyo. She is doing well but I am so afraid for her life, along with the lives and health of everyone else that will be affected by this catastrophe. The people of Japan and the West Coast of the US to start......

 

I never used to worry about anything until I got children. I have seen pictures of children that have been radiated after the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan

Yes, thanks for asking My mum lives in Tokyo. She is doing well but I am so afraid for her life, along with the lives and health of everyone else that will be affected by this catastrophe. The people of Japan and the West Coast of the US to start......

 

I never used to worry about anything until I got children. I have seen pictures of children that have been radiated after the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan

 

I will pray for your mom!

Yes, thanks for asking My mum lives in Tokyo. She is doing well but I am so afraid for her life, along with the lives and health of everyone else that will be affected by this catastrophe. The people of Japan and the West Coast of the US to start......

 

I never used to worry about anything until I got children. I have seen pictures of children that have been radiated after the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan

 

 

Benkei they will pull through, we are all praying for them!

 

 

"The Fukushima Daiichi plant has seven pools dedicated to spent fuel rods. These are located at the top of six reactor buildings – or were until explosions and fires ravaged the plant. On the ground level there is a common pool in a separate building that was critically damaged by the tsunami. Each reactor building pool holds 3,450 fuel rod assemblies and the common pool holds 6,291 fuel rod assemblies. Each assembly holds sixty-three fuel rods. In short, the Fukushima Daiichi plant contains over 600,000 spent fuel rods – a massive amount of radiation that will soon be released into the atmosphere".

 

Those things that were blown hundreds of feet in the air on the news were bits of the spent rods and housing. I kinda freaking out here because if you inhale one tiny dust particle that has been radiated with the radioactive Uranium or Plutonium, you will die! If a dust particle blows over a spent fuel rod it will get radiated. That particle will enter your lungs and radiate your whole entire body. Probably make Ebola look like a paper cut.

 

With that being said, the radiation levels in Tokyo have not gone crazy yet. Is it because the strong winds and the jet stream are blowing it over the Pacific Ocean? Is that crap coming to the west coast of the US next?

 

Holy fcuking shit I had no idea the situation was that bad with spent rods already blown up everywhere I have read quite a few articles but none that I had read mentioned that information.

"The Fukushima Daiichi plant has seven pools dedicated to spent fuel rods. These are located at the top of six reactor buildings – or were until explosions and fires ravaged the plant. On the ground level there is a common pool in a separate building that was critically damaged by the tsunami. Each reactor building pool holds 3,450 fuel rod assemblies and the common pool holds 6,291 fuel rod assemblies. Each assembly holds sixty-three fuel rods. In short, the Fukushima Daiichi plant contains over 600,000 spent fuel rods – a massive amount of radiation that will soon be released into the atmosphere".

 

Those things that were blown hundreds of feet in the air on the news were bits of the spent rods and housing. I kinda freaking out here because if you inhale one tiny dust particle that has been radiated with the radioactive Uranium or Plutonium, you will die! If a dust particle blows over a spent fuel rod it will get radiated. That particle will enter your lungs and radiate your whole entire body. Probably make Ebola look like a paper cut.

 

With that being said, the radiation levels in Tokyo have not gone crazy yet. Is it because the strong winds and the jet stream are blowing it over the Pacific Ocean? Is that crap coming to the west coast of the US next?

 

Source?

With that being said, the radiation levels in Tokyo have not gone crazy yet. Is it because the strong winds and the jet stream are blowing it over the Pacific Ocean? Is that crap coming to the west coast of the US next?

 

 

UN predicts plume to reach Southern California late Friday

 

Health and nuclear experts emphasize that radiation in the plume will be diluted as it travels and, at worst, would have extremely minor health consequences in the United States, even if hints of it are ultimately detectable.

 

Were supposed to get rain late tomorrow night so that should flush whatever is left into the ocean.

Cernobyl radioactive fallout dropped here in Europe, also here in North of Italy we took enough ot those radioactivity: this time nuclear fallout maybe is a gift for North America, who knows.

 

It will not be an heavy problem, but blood cancer and thyroid cancer will increase its percentage as it did here.

 

Do not let children to play in the dust and often clean/change air filters in domestic A/C an car A/C. Wash often cars and home floors with water. Wash with water everything you can. Avoid dust and sand.

 

Good luck

 

ciao