.....and the rioting and looting has begun.

My understanding is he didn't die from suffocation but rather from a heart attack some time later (not that it justifies what they did though). Regarding the knee on the head move though, wasn't that implemented originally so that the police had a non-violent means of securing the person?

 

 

I don't think it was the choke so much as the chest compression that killed him. All that weight on his thoracic cavity not allowing him to breath resulted in a cardiac arrest. The choke was a triangle that hit his carotids but it didn't cause a loss of consciousness because Garner could be heard saying "I can't breath". That he was talking also indicates it wasn't a tracheal choke. So I'm thinking chest compression plus a heart attack waiting to happen.

 

Here's a great video breaking down what happened.

 

You see the video and from it Eric Garner had excessive force, but obviously a grand jury that heard the testimony and evidence didn't agree. You are only seeing a 30 second video. I'm not saying the cops are right, but snap judgements are dangerous. Let's say this big guy was accosted by one cop and then he pushed the cop and then the cop opened fire .....Ferguson

 

Let's say one cop tazered this huge cardiac disease asthmatic and he died from the tazer and hid disease. White cope wrong killed black man

 

 

Let's say one cop told him turn around and he grabbed cop and bashed his head against a wall and ran

 

Let's say these cops deal with this local petty criminal often and know the streets where they work and they did what they felt was safest for themselves .

 

I too thought the grand jury may have got it wrong, but it's wreckless to say that based on the video as its wreckless to say the Ferguson jury got it wrong.

 

 

I would also say any of you guys with teenage boys tell them if they ever run into a situation with the police to be respectful and comply no matter what they feel about the situation as it can all be sorted out later. It still amazes me after all the choices someone has when confronted by police that they feel that the tough guy non compliance reaction is going to be the best path to take. I would bet the percentage of people hurt by the police if they stfu and put their hands up is minimal. There will always be bad cops out there and even the most decent people will be confronted for something at one time or another but you certainly can decrease your odds of getting hurt by one and this is definately a good time to drill into your kids some advice.

 

I would also say any of you guys with teenage boys tell them if they ever run into a situation with the police to be respectful and comply no matter what they feel about the situation as it can all be sorted out later. It still amazes me after all the choices someone has when confronted by police that they feel that the tough guy non compliance reaction is going to be the best path to take. I would bet the percentage of people hurt by the police if they stfu and put their hands up is minimal. There will always be bad cops out there and even the most decent people will be confronted for something at one time or another but you certainly can decrease your odds of getting hurt by one and this is definately a good time to drill into your kids some advice.

 

No one should have to cower in the face of injustice just to stay alive.

 

No one should have to cower in the face of injustice just to stay alive.

 

Thats what the courts are for. Mouth off to a cop the next time you get pulled over and see how that works out for you. I am all for standing up for yourself but doing it to a cop that is all wound up is not the right time especially for a know it all teenager.

 

Thats good that I missed the point, I thought you were saying life is too short to be a pussy and not stand up to some cops that want you to do something when you know you did nothing wrong. That sounds good in theory but usually doesn't work out as planned.

I think if you are within your rights you can not obey, for example you can respectfully refuse to answer questions, and also respectfully decline to pull off to the side of the road for one of those inspections where you don't technically have to comply, but other things where you are supposed to comply, you should.

 

Oh boy, now I feel dumb. I have to say it, but I missed the point of that picture at first, both literally and figuratively. I glanced over it and thought it meant the person on the missile was going to blow up or something. I missed "the point" located at the bottom of it :eusa_wall:

That's what I say too, mouthing off to a cop you won't come out the victor. I hate authority and all the bullshit rules imposed because of the 1 in a million imbeciles, I also hate getting bullied by some cop on a power trip...BUT... As RD said, I hire a good lawyer and have always seen a favourable outcome.

Having two pre-teen boys, these events have illustrated my words and the words of my father when I was kid which are simply those of 1)don't break the law in the first place, jackass, you're carrying our family's name and you know better, 2) Fear me, not the police officer if you break rule #1 3) Whether innocent or guilty, you sure better respect a police officer's authority. Do what you're told with a "yes sir". And, lastly, never approach an officer in any way that may be deemed as a threat (this includes just having a conversation at a football game and reaching out towards him/her to shake a hand; make sure he knows you're not threat, he has a gun on his hip and you want to make sure he knows your reaching for a shake, not a pistol).

 

I just don't understand the confrontational and combative stance persons take when dealing w/ an officer or, even more so, with a group of officers. Innocent or guilty, good cop or bad cop, you'll loose on the street every single time. Winning, save that for court.

Zmydust...everyone gets your point but the fact of the matter and the common sense and logical response for anyone with brains in these situations is to quietly get arrested, whether wrong or right. Had both of these guys done that, they would be alive today. You can stand up for justice after the fact. If the cop is in the wrong, I'd rather have a nice pay day from a lawsuit for my troubles than being 6 feet under.

No one should have to cower in the face of injustice just to stay alive.

 

That is true, but as a cop friend of mine says, you will never win or improve your situation by arguing with a cop on the side of the road. That is what lawyers are for.

 

Thats what the courts are for. Mouth off to a cop the next time you get pulled over and see how that works out for you. I am all for standing up for yourself but doing it to a cop that is all wound up is not the right time especially for a know it all teenager.

 

 

 

That's a dangerous rationale , how far should this sort of tyranny be let to go? You keep mentioning the courts, I'll have to point out they did nothing so far even though a leo is on TAPE choking a man to death. The sword is mightier than the pen in this case.

That's a dangerous rationale , how far should this sort of tyranny be let to go? You keep mentioning the courts, I'll have to point out they did nothing so far even though a leo is on TAPE choking a man to death. The sword is mightier than the pen in this case.

 

But you're missing that he never would have been choked if he had just obeyed them. I don't know the case but if he was illegally selling something, he would have been arrested and paid his fine or jailed, depending. And he would be alive.

 

There is no way to fix that kind of ignorance.

The choking video is very hard to watch. I know that we don't have access to all of the information that was presented to the grand jury, but it's really hard to agree that there wasn't enough there to at least send it to a jury trial.

 

 

There is no way to fix that kind of ignorance.

 

:eusa_wall:

Wow... that's a sad state of affairs right there. Guy has balls to go into that shitstorm asking questions.

 

As far as the NYC case...

 

I agree with what has been said before. I've never seen anyone resist arrest and come out better for it. However, that kind of force wasn't justified for the offense. We have a couple different cases here and we have what I feel are one right outcome (Brown) and one wrong outcome (Garner).

 

The man was just selling loose cigarettes, basically circumventing a NY tax law on cigarettes. While against the law, he was not endagering the public or the officers.

I seem to know of a NY citizen with a much bigger tax problem - race baiter extraordinaire Al Sharpton. Al Sharpton Still Owes Millions in Back Taxes (Aug 2014)

 

According to the video he was breaking up a fight. Who knows. Even if he was selling cigarettes who fcuking cares. All this for that?

 

 

Terrible tragedy. Was tough watching that.

 

What's more is that this case not going to trial will undermine the correct call in the Ferguson case.

Two things happen in that tape that make it a crime... 1. At :47 you can hear another cop tell the choker, "Ok, ok, ok, he's down." Which is cop talk for "ok, You're choking him, hes down, get off him."

 

He lets the choke go, but transitions to the hand on the face and the knee on the back, which is when Garner says, "I can't breath"

 

At 1:07 you can see another officer tug at the back of the chokers shirt, again the message is, "he's cuffed, get off of him..." He doesn't.

And heres another video... He's clearly unconscious. And in positional asphyxia... but the don't take the cuffs off and put him on his back so he can breath, or help him at all....

Two things happen in that tape that make it a crime... 1. At :47 you can hear another cop tell the choker, "Ok, ok, ok, he's down." Which is cop talk for "ok, You're choking him, hes down, get off him."

 

He lets the choke go, but transitions to the hand on the face and the knee on the back, which is when Garner says, "I can't breath"

 

At 1:07 you can see another officer tug at the back of the chokers shirt, again the message is, "he's cuffed, get off of him..." He doesn't.

 

The choker looks to have a bit of a Napoleonic-juicer complex.

The choker looks to have a bit of a Napoleonic-juicer complex.

 

 

Check out the second vid... theyre all pumped up guidos.

Check out the second vid... theyre all pumped up guidos.

 

Shocker. They probably jerk-off to Muscle Magazine and the thought of chest day at the gym. "Hey Brah, i need my protein and HGH!"

Thats good that I missed the point, I thought you were saying life is too short to be a pussy and not stand up to some cops that want you to do something when you know you did nothing wrong. That sounds good in theory but usually doesn't work out as planned.

 

 

I'm saying that the entire system is flawed if a citizen has to cower to keep from dying , is the death sentence a viable option for illegal street vending? No? Then why is this man dead over it ? If every LEO knew that they needed to fear the citizens as much as the other way around when it came down to injust actions, this wouldn't occur. If those videoing were armed and drew down with a simple, " release that choke or the ten of us will open fire" command that would have went far different. The thought of "oh well , violate my rights since you're a LEO and I'll try and win in court" is NOT a valid response and will never solve this problem as the vast majority of these people do not have the resources to retain an attorney that could take care of something like this. I completely understand what you are saying, its just that it doesn't solve the larger problem of the courts allowing us to become a tyranical police state through actions like the ones in this thread not being prosecuted . If that was my family member on that tape, you might as well call the local prison and have them get me a bunk and a punk because that will be the last day that LEO walks around .