Brexit

I read Turkey was considering a referendum on leaving.

How did you manage to read that? Turkey is not in the EU and will never be. It is a borderline dictatorship with massive political baggage and ISIS on its doorstep.

I read Turkey was considering a referendum on leaving.

National sovereignty should supersede international alliances.

How did you manage to read that? Turkey is not in the EU and will never be. It is a borderline dictatorship with massive political baggage and ISIS on its doorstep.

 

You are correct ... BUT ...

 

Earlier this year, the EU put together a deal with Turkey, to "soften" the refugee problem ...

 

In exchange Turkey gets sort of a seat at the table, billions in payments, and ...

 

I believe free passage for Turkish citizens into the EU ...

 

I expect that deal is about to unravel ... That will be the next nail in Merkel's coffin ...

What studies this is based or is it a loose assumption put into infographics clothes?

 

As great hindsight I must say that kicking Greece out of EU would have been very benecifial.

Merkel is politically finished. She had a great deal to do with the outcome of this referendum, it is precisely these half witted, one sided political decisions that have increased euro skepticism, put the European project in danger, and gave rise to a lot of the recent anti German and anti EU rethoric.

 

 

And rightly so.

 

What she basically did was this: In the wake of the refugee crisis, in a fit of completely unbecoming and inappropriate emotional behavior, invited and encouraged refugees to come to Germany, against the advice of her councillors, local governments, ministers, governments of other countries etc. Seeing as this ignited a mass movement of refugees to Germany, and being unable to cope, she, over the course of a few weeks tried to spin this as a European problem, and using Germany's full political clout, tried, but failed to impose refugee quotas on the rest of the EU countries, in the name of European solidarity. The backlash was massive, as everyone felt they were being forced to deal with the consequences of a decision they did not make or agree to. And why should everyone be forced to deal with a problem they did not create? It is her short sightedness, and the west's inability to contain the problems in the Middle East that have put the EU in danger of dissolution.

Wow never thought it that way. That actually makes sense and thats how it started.

 

In Finnish media it has been totally white washed to look like a problem we just have participate and be open handed even when it's coming unbearable to everyone. Merkel made it to be a shame trap. Either you keep your borders and laps open and welcoming, or lose your face in EU and be known as a brutal merciless country.

Half of the people has been blinded by this wash, and others see immediately though all the bullshit.

 

What a mess.

How did you manage to read that? Turkey is not in the EU and will never be. It is a borderline dictatorship with massive political baggage and ISIS on its doorstep.

 

Okay I see the mistake I made, the referendum Turkey is considering is on Turkey's potential EU membership: LINK

Okay I see the mistake I made, the referendum Turkey is considering is on Turkey's potential EU membership: LINK

LOL.

Russia will lead Nato and North Korea lead UN, before Turkey will be part of real EU.

Ultimate irony - Churchill called for the formation of a United States of Europe in 1946.

The ultimate irony to me at this point is when General Du Gaulle vetoed the entrance of the UK into the EEC in 1963, viewing them as an American trojan horse.

 

You are correct ... BUT ...

 

Earlier this year, the EU put together a deal with Turkey, to "soften" the refugee problem ...

 

In exchange Turkey gets sort of a seat at the table, billions in payments, and ...

 

I believe free passage for Turkish citizens into the EU ...

 

I expect that deal is about to unravel ... That will be the next nail in Merkel's coffin ...

 

Turkey gets no seat at any table. What it gets is money to deal with the refugees, which it rightly deserves imo, and presumably visa free travel if they implement some political reforms which the EU asked of them. That's not a free passage. It's just visa free travel for Turkish tourists. The visa stuff is blackmail on the Turkish part, but it is what it is. There is no other solution. Turkey has become a thorn in everyone's side, actually not Turkey but the wannabe dictator Erdogan.

 

Wow never thought it that way. That actually makes sense and thats how it started.

 

In Finnish media it has been totally white washed to look like a problem we just have participate and be open handed even when it's coming unbearable to everyone. Merkel made it to be a shame trap. Either you keep your borders and laps open and welcoming, or lose your face in EU and be known as a brutal merciless country.

Half of the people has been blinded by this wash, and others see immediately though all the bullshit.

 

What a mess.

It is precisely that way in that exact order. You can check news articles for yourself and establish a timeline no need to take my word for it, all the information is available from the most reputable news sources in Europe.

 

Finnish, and other Scandinavian media, in general, isn't worth the paper it's printed on. It's about equal to the Russian media in the way it spins things in order to toe the government line, it's just less obvious because they do it voluntarily, at least when it comes to sensitive stuff. British, German and Eastern European media are freer, more balanced and more diverse in the opinions they express, and obviously of far better quality, though there are always exceptions.

Turkey gets no seat at any table. What it gets is money to deal with the refugees, which it rightly deserves imo, and presumably visa free travel if they implement some political reforms which the EU asked of them. That's not a free passage. It's just visa free travel for Turkish tourists. The visa stuff is blackmail on the Turkish part, but it is what it is. There is no other solution. Turkey has become a thorn in everyone's side, actually not Turkey but the wannabe dictator Erdogan.

 

Your premise assumes the EU is actually calling the shots ...

 

Erdogan is a complete wild card ...

 

Merkel and company are in well over their heads ...

 

It's just a matter of time, before the balance of power within that little club, takes a major shift ...

2.5 million have signed a petition for another UK referendum on the EU.

2.5 million have signed a petition for another UK referendum on the EU.

 

And a great portion of the signatures aren't even from people in the UK according to a report today.

2.5 million have signed a petition for another UK referendum on the EU.

 

 

wow, so the people who didn't win, or those who don't support what was actually voted on only days ago are already whinging and trying to have their way when they were beaten fair and square?

 

this really is a world of entitlement. If you didn't win, you make do and move on.

wow, so the people who didn't win, or those who don't support what was actually voted on only days ago are already whinging and trying to have their way when they were beaten fair and square?

 

this really is a world of entitlement. If you didn't win, you make do and move on.

 

Sounds a lot things here in the United States.

Sounds a lot things here in the United States.

 

 

I guess it's part off the "everyone gets a trophy day" mentality so rife in the world these days. People can't accept that you can't always win.

And a great portion of the signatures aren't even from people in the UK according to a report today.

 

Source?

wow, so the people who didn't win, or those who don't support what was actually voted on only days ago are already whinging and trying to have their way when they were beaten fair and square?

 

this really is a world of entitlement. If you didn't win, you make do and move on.

 

The Leave campaigners also insisted that in case the referendum doesn't go their way, and the result is tight, they would keep pushing for new ones:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-35...row-margin.html

Now BORIS warns the EU referendum might not settle Britain's membership after Farage claims we should vote again if Leave only loses by a narrow margin

So who are the entitled ones?

 

The Leave camp has during the course of the last 2 days disavowed some of their main points in their campaign like the immigration pledge and the money they'd save and put into public health or education. There is no "Leave" argument that has any substance and isn't obviously thin, it was a campaign based on factoids or outright lies, the stupid, gullible working class masses had very little understanding of what they were voting for. Most searched for google phrases the day after the vote were "what is the EU" "what happens if we leave the EU". Embarrassing. THe irony is the stupid working class masses will be the first and hardest hit by leaving the EU. How stupid can you be to think you'd save money by leaving? Yes the UK is a net contributor but the amount they actually give is a lot smaller than the ridiculous sums put forward by the leave camp. Who's going to pay the generous agricultural subsidies to the rural "leavers" now that they're "independent"? Much of that money is going to have to be diverted to subsidies.

 

Nigel Farage, is under some sort of starry eyed nostalgia fueled idea that the trade they now do with the EU, could be done with and I quote "our real friends in the commonwealth". What fcuking commonwealth? Australia and New Zealand? Who are on the other side of planet? Has he ever seen a map of Earth? They leave the largest market in the world, a market of 500 million people that is on their doorstep to trade with a market of 20 million on the far side of the planet? Or perhaps they'll be trading with their 'real' friends in Africa and the Caribbean? Seriously? If the UK does not accept the freedom of movement with all that it entails (capital, goods and labor) they will be trading with the EU just like any other country, and they will be subject to import/export tarrifs which will greatly diminish their products competitiveness, that aside from the logistical nightmare that going through customs is going to be. Hence if they do accept freedom of movement, nothing changes with the exception of them losing influence over EU decisions, and their considerable political clout in the Europe.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-r...4b08d2c56394817

 

EU Referendum Leave U-Turns On Immigration, NHS And ‘Taking Our Country Back’

 

http://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-...s-vote-11524023

 

Three broken Brexit promises the Vote Leave campaign backtracked from following the EU referendum results

 

This in just only 48 hours... Ridiculous.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/ga...t-a7100596.html

 

What happens if we leave the EU? Google searches surge as people realise they don't know what Brexit actually means

 

After being so vocal in leaving the EU, Boris Johnson the leader of the "Leave" campaign, is now saying there is no need to hurry in leaving the EU. Imo, I think Boris Johnson never actually believed in leaving the EU, nor did he believe this would be the outcome of the referendum. I think he simply wanted to gain political capital and saw this as an opportunity to do so, and it blew up in his face.

Such important decisions for the future of a nation should not be left to the uneducated masses to decide. This isn't democracy, it's a mockery of it when you conduct a campaign as the "leavers" just did, and to add insult to injury you then backtrack on everything. Say next they make a referendum in which they are asked "should we confiscate the wealth of the richest 1% and give it back to the common people?", I'm sure that would win as well. Is that democracy too?

, the stupid, gullible working class masses had very little understanding of what they were voting for.

 

 

Agreed, however it does highlight that people are unhappy with foreign policy and that they're hoping for a certain outcome. and that is a result of weak willed politicians (not just the UK, but most first world secure countries, i.e. USA, Germany, Australia) who are not willing to make more stringent requirements for immigration.

 

try to move to Swizerland and see how far you get. The reality is that most people want to protect their patch, and be it misguided or not, they hoped that leaving the EU would give them some of this.

 

I for one (being someone that lives a very comfortable life in one of the aforementioned countries) would also love to see extremely stringent immigration and foreign policy directives, alas the politicians are too weak willed to do it.

"Let's keep having votes until my choice wins"

Democracy.. You're doing it wrong.

Such important decisions for the future of a nation should not be left to the uneducated masses to decide.

 

No important decision should be left to the uneducated masses, biggest flaw of democracy.

 

They form the majority, are easy manipulated and you can not win at their game, just look at politics and the people the uneducated masses select as leaders, it takes 1 or 2 terms for the morons to figure out, damn I think we've stuffed up, by then the whole thing is down the drain, get the better guys in and give them a chance at trying to fix the issues, after the 1st term they are out, the only way to fix the problems is to tighten the belt, of course they don't like losing their entitlements, so the vicious circle continues.

 

Every time someone mentions politics and politicians to me I want to vomit, they are the cancer of our society.

 

Think of a corporation which is successful now think of allowing every Tom, Dick, Harry and Jane who work for that corporation to make crucial decisions for said corporation. Financial suicide.

Agreed, however it does highlight that people are unhappy with foreign policy and that they're hoping for a certain outcome. and that is a result of weak willed politicians (not just the UK, but most first world secure countries, i.e. USA, Germany, Australia) who are not willing to make more stringent requirements for immigration.

 

try to move to Swizerland and see how far you get. The reality is that most people want to protect their patch, and be it misguided or not, they hoped that leaving the EU would give them some of this.

 

I for one (being someone that lives a very comfortable life in one of the aforementioned countries) would also love to see extremely stringent immigration and foreign policy directives, alas the politicians are too weak willed to do it.

I agree that this vote is mostly a result of exasperation with politicians.

 

And in regards to immigration there is also a large degree of hypocrisy involved, at least as far as EU immigrants are concerned. Who do you think takes the jobs that the natives don't want? It's immigrants from poorer Eastern Europe. You know, someone has to dig ditches and clean toilets and care for the elderly (who ironically voted leave en masse). If by magic they'd all leave the UK tomorrow their country would collapse. Also immigration doesn't only attract low skilled labor, it also attracts talent and lots of it, to the point that some countries in the east have chronic shortages of doctors for example, because they're all lured to the west with higher wages.

They go through school and college at the local taxpayers expense and then leave for the UK or Germany, which as far as I know do not contribute to public education budgets, nor does the EU. They earn money and pay taxes in their adoptive countries while their birth countries suffer through chronic shortages after paying for their education. Same goes for engineers, programmers, researchers, and other high skilled labor.

You tell me who gets the short end of the stick here? They get these highly educated people for the price of an airplane ticket, which contribute to their economies and support the high living standards in the west, and the same people taking advantage of this unfair situation then look down upon those very same people and the countries from which those people originate.

 

In regards to immigration from outside the EU, that is a whole lot different, but each country has different policies on this, I understand the UK toughened immigration requirements for people outside the EU but I'm not sure what the process is now, in my country its nearly impossible to get citizenship if you're from outside the EU, unless you marry a local and/or live here for many years, and even then its not guaranteed. and in order to get a work permit as an outsider the process is so cumbersome and complicated that it's rarely worth going through it. Immigration from outside the EU causes more friction in society and poses different challenges. However this was not supposed to be a vote on immigration though it turned out to be.

 

Being an EU citizen I can move to Switzerland tomorrow and it is within my rights to do so, even if they aren't in the EU, because they have signed up to the EU freedom of movement agreement.

"Let's keep having votes until my choice wins"

Democracy.. You're doing it wrong.

 

 

The funny thing is that it's "young kids" thinking like this and blaming the older generation(s), except what they fail to realize that both in the US and the UK, it's the older generations that had to fight the wars. Spoiled fcuking brats.

Most searched for google phrases the day after the vote were "what is the EU" "what happens if we leave the EU". Embarrassing.

 

I could understand perhaps the "What happens if we leave the EU" bit as a lot of people don't know the economic ramifications that well, but one should not be voting on such an issue if they literally don't know what the E.U. is. I'm actually rather shocked that a lot of U.K. citizens don't know what the E.U. is.

 

Say next they make a referendum in which they are asked "should we confiscate the wealth of the richest 1% and give it back to the common people?", I'm sure that would win as well. Is that democracy too?

 

That is why I really hate referendums. They use them to pass various gun control measures in the various states here in the U.S. as well that would not make it through the legislatures. I do wonder why such referendums are legal in the first place.

I agree that this vote is mostly a result of exasperation with politicians.

 

And in regards to immigration there is also a large degree of hypocrisy involved, at least as far as EU immigrants are concerned. Who do you think takes the jobs that the natives don't want? It's immigrants from poorer Eastern Europe. You know, someone has to dig ditches and clean toilets and care for the elderly (who ironically voted leave en masse). If by magic they'd all leave the UK tomorrow their country would collapse. Also immigration doesn't only attract low skilled labor, it also attracts talent and lots of it, to the point that some countries in the east have chronic shortages of doctors for example, because they're all lured to the west with higher wages.

They go through school and college at the local taxpayers expense and then leave for the UK or Germany, which as far as I know do not contribute to public education budgets, nor does the EU. They earn money and pay taxes in their adoptive countries while their birth countries suffer through chronic shortages after paying for their education. Same goes for engineers, programmers, researchers, and other high skilled labor.

You tell me who gets the short end of the stick here? They get these highly educated people for the price of an airplane ticket, which contribute to their economies and support the high living standards in the west, and the same people taking advantage of this unfair situation then look down upon those very same people and the countries from which those people originate.

 

In regards to immigration from outside the EU, that is a whole lot different, but each country has different policies on this, I understand the UK toughened immigration requirements for people outside the EU but I'm not sure what the process is now, in my country its nearly impossible to get citizenship if you're from outside the EU, unless you marry a local and/or live here for many years, and even then its not guaranteed. and in order to get a work permit as an outsider the process is so cumbersome and complicated that it's rarely worth going through it. Immigration from outside the EU causes more friction in society and poses different challenges. However this was not supposed to be a vote on immigration though it turned out to be.

 

Being an EU citizen I can move to Switzerland tomorrow and it is within my rights to do so, even if they aren't in the EU, because they have signed up to the EU freedom of movement agreement.

 

All very valid points and I agree with them all. But basically as you say it turned into an immigration issue because that's where the populous see the problems in their eyes.

 

I thought to become a Swiss citizen you have to go through a heavy review process etc, mandatory military service etc?

I agree that this vote is mostly a result of exasperation with politicians.

 

And in regards to immigration there is also a large degree of hypocrisy involved, at least as far as EU immigrants are concerned. Who do you think takes the jobs that the natives don't want? It's immigrants from poorer Eastern Europe. You know, someone has to dig ditches and clean toilets and care for the elderly (who ironically voted leave en masse). If by magic they'd all leave the UK tomorrow their country would collapse. Also immigration doesn't only attract low skilled labor, it also attracts talent and lots of it, to the point that some countries in the east have chronic shortages of doctors for example, because they're all lured to the west with higher wages.

They go through school and college at the local taxpayers expense and then leave for the UK or Germany, which as far as I know do not contribute to public education budgets, nor does the EU. They earn money and pay taxes in their adoptive countries while their birth countries suffer through chronic shortages after paying for their education. Same goes for engineers, programmers, researchers, and other high skilled labor.

You tell me who gets the short end of the stick here? They get these highly educated people for the price of an airplane ticket, which contribute to their economies and support the high living standards in the west, and the same people taking advantage of this unfair situation then look down upon those very same people and the countries from which those people originate.

 

In regards to immigration from outside the EU, that is a whole lot different, but each country has different policies on this, I understand the UK toughened immigration requirements for people outside the EU but I'm not sure what the process is now, in my country its nearly impossible to get citizenship if you're from outside the EU, unless you marry a local and/or live here for many years, and even then its not guaranteed. and in order to get a work permit as an outsider the process is so cumbersome and complicated that it's rarely worth going through it. Immigration from outside the EU causes more friction in society and poses different challenges. However this was not supposed to be a vote on immigration though it turned out to be.

 

Being an EU citizen I can move to Switzerland tomorrow and it is within my rights to do so, even if they aren't in the EU, because they have signed up to the EU freedom of movement agreement.

 

Ameer, great post, I have a lot of time for you.

All very valid points and I agree with them all. But basically as you say it turned into an immigration issue because that's where the populous see the problems in their eyes.

 

I thought to become a Swiss citizen you have to go through a heavy review process etc, mandatory military service etc?

I don't know about becoming a citizen, I'm sure there is a path to citizenship, but as long as I have the right to live and to work in Switzerland I don't need to become a citizen. If I wanted to live there, I have a right to do so and I'd pay taxes and live just like every other Swiss citizen.