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New 2022 Lamborghini Aventador hybrid V12

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4 hours ago, porter said:

Credit where it's due, that is a damn nice car. The design language is impressive.

agreed, the little details in there really make a difference, especially towards the back. 

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3 hours ago, christiann said:

maybe I had to many mushrooms over the weekend but I see countach lines?

The mushrooms you had were perfectly benign sir.  During the private preview, Borkert literally proclaimed that the front trunk, the roof and the overall profile of the car were heavily inspired by the Countach.  So you are absolutely correct.
 

And that may lead to an interesting debate.  While it isn’t ugly and I don’t dislike its looks, it really is time to move on.  Gandini is an absolute genius and his design of the CT is epic.  But over the years we ahave enough re-interpretations of the CT already; moving on is long overdue.  If Gandini can jump from the classic Miura design to a never-seen-before Countach design, why can’t a new design chief on current times do the same? Let’s be innovative rather than playing it safe and rehash a decades old design albeit it being good looking.

On a different buy related note, while it looks good, it’s still an Aventador underneath with an electric motor assisting on the transmission which is supposedly resolving the negative issues associated with the ISR tranny. Nice car but definitely not multi-million dollar nice. There are at least 4 members who had seen the car at the preview and 3 had turned down the offer.  They speaks volumes already.  For the one who bought one, your car, your $ & your prerogative.  But this definitely isn’t the Lambo that is be all and end all let alone being THE super car.  At that price level, there are many other alternatives to choose from and some would be categorically better than the Sian.  63 is definitely too many for being a collector car’s status especially at that price.  We all are Lamborghini enthusiasts but we are not Lamborghini fanboys; we call it exactly the way it should be.  If it ain’t worth it, it’s exactly that and we would say just that as well.  And Ragianni had already claimed that the new flagship will not be adopting the super capacitor technology.  So essentially these are 63 examples of an obsolete tech which are just being used for quick fundraising purpose only.

The blue car, btw, looks like it's a static display model only: totally opaque windows all around and the left wheels are different from the right ones.

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56 minutes ago, VCR said:

The mushrooms you had were perfectly benign sir.  During the private preview, Borkert literally proclaimed that the front trunk, the roof and the overall profile of the car were heavily inspired by the Countach.  So you are absolutely correct.
 

And that may lead to an interesting debate.  While it isn’t ugly and I don’t dislike its looks, it really is time to move on.  Gandini is an absolute genius and his design of the CT is epic.  But over the years we ahave enough re-interpretations of the CT already; moving on is long overdue.  If Gandini can jump from the classic Miura design to a never-seen-before Countach design, why can’t a new design chief on current times do the same? Let’s be innovative rather than playing it safe and rehash a decades old design albeit it being good looking.

On a different buy related note, while it looks good, it’s still an Aventador underneath with an electric motor assisting on the transmission which is supposedly resolving the negative issues associated with the ISR tranny. Nice car but definitely not multi-million dollar nice. There are at least 4 members who had seen the car at the preview and 3 had turned down the offer.  They speaks volumes already.  For the one who bought one, your car, your $ & your prerogative.  But this definitely isn’t the Lambo that is be all and end all let alone being THE super car.  At that price level, there are many other alternatives to choose from and some would be categorically better than the Sian.  63 is definitely too many for being a collector car’s status especially at that price.  We all are Lamborghini enthusiasts but we are not Lamborghini fanboys; we call it exactly the way it should be.  If it ain’t worth it, it’s exactly that and we would say just that as well.  And Ragianni had already claimed that the new flagship will not be adopting the super capacitor technology.  So essentially these are 63 examples of an obsolete tech which are just being used for quick fundraising purpose only.

The blue car, btw, looks like it's a static display model only: totally opaque windows all around and the left wheels are different from the right ones.

All really good points and observations. You'll really upset the fragile fan boys with that post. 

Interestingly enough, that we sit here and call this a "safe" design, i don't think you'd see many others calling designs like this safe and conservative. Just a reminder of what a great privilege it is to be Lamborghini enthusiasts.

That being said you won't find any disagreement from me on any of those points. I would think the Tezro Millennio (in a street-able version) would have been more welcomed. The Sian is a great looking car, but this is Lamborghini. They can go farther, and do better! 

 

490246_v2.jpg

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I think it is the best one-off interpretation of the Aventador chassis so far. You look at a Veneno or a Centenario and you clearly see the AV chassis. Sian hides it very well. What I'm wondering most about is if the supercapacitator has fixed the ISR transmission at low speeds? 

Now is Sian worth it's price? By now it is probably worth a lot more, especially with the recent Lamborghini one-off auction result. On top of that this is far more unique than a Centenario. I bet you nobody else will put a supercapacitator with a N/A V12 and sell it out like hot cakes for this sort of price. 

In other news, ALA 3.0 is well underway for a certain model. 

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34 minutes ago, Destructo said:

All really good points and observations. You'll really upset the fragile fan boys with that post. 

Interestingly enough, that we sit here and call this a "safe" design, i don't think you'd see many others calling designs like this safe and conservative. Just a reminder of what a great privilege it is to be Lamborghini enthusiasts.

That being said you won't find any disagreement from me on any of those points. I would think the Tezro Millennio (in a street-able version) would have been more welcomed. The Sian is a great looking car, but this is Lamborghini. They can go farther, and do better! 

 

Exactly.  It's not my intent to upset or appease the fanboys; rather I am merely stating the facts.  If they agree, great; if they don't, no big; it's an open forum; everyone's entitled to their opinion but just be readied to be negated if it deserves to be so; and that equally applies to me.

Look at the Miura and then look at the Countach, there is nothing in common about the two except the engines and even those are positioned very differently.  And yet both were penned by the same man and made by the same company.  And that's my point.  Lamborghini has been and should still be a company with products that would "wow" everyone; hence the Countach name.  The Sian design validates a thumbs-up but it does not generate jaw-dropping excitement; at least not to some of us.  Why play it safe and be evolutionary when one can be revolutionary?  For that price, I expect something almost beyond anyone's imagination.  It is a Lamborghini based on a flagship model after all.  To be fair, perhaps it has its limitations on the design as it is restricted by the current chassis.  But if they can come up with the original Avenatdor, the Veneo and the Centenario with the same chassis, they should be able to make a brand new epic design rather than reinventing the Countach yet once again.  Hopefully, they are saving that for the new flagship car.

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48 minutes ago, APB said:

I think it is the best one-off interpretation of the Aventador chassis so far. You look at a Veneno or a Centenario and you clearly see the AV chassis. Sian hides it very well. What I'm wondering most about is if the supercapacitator has fixed the ISR transmission at low speeds? 

Now is Sian worth it's price? By now it is probably worth a lot more, especially with the recent Lamborghini one-off auction result. On top of that this is far more unique than a Centenario. I bet you nobody else will put a supercapacitator with a N/A V12 and sell it out like hot cakes for this sort of price. 

In other news, ALA 3.0 is well underway for a certain model. 

I don't disagree with your comments.  The Sian looks good; better than the Centenario and a lot better than the Veneno IMO.  Keep in mind that the designer of the Sian and that of the Centenario plus the Veneno are 2 different persons so the Sian designer is not bogged down by his old self and the associated thinking/designing process.  That fortifies the point of Gandini being a genius as his Countach design has no resemblance to his Mura design; none whatsoever.  I wish the current or future design chief can be the same: i.e. while respecting the heritage, it's time to turn a completely new page. Rather than just earning a nod or a thumbs up, let's aim for responses that are jaw-dropping, positively shocking and with waves of applause.

Now that the embargo is off, at the private preview, the Lambo staff toild us exactly what you are wondering.  The AC motor is suppose to augment the ISR tranny and fill in the gap where the ISR is criticized for.  Accordingly, they did plenty of track testing and the numbers say those problems have been addressed and fixed.  Whether or not that is true in the real world, we shall see.

As to its worth, that's entirely subjective.  There have been many threads here debating whether Lamborghini's are sound investments or not.  I never see Lambo's as investments; they are toys.  When it's time to move on and if I were able to gain some money out of it, that sweetens the plot.  But if does not, no matter; it's expected.  But that's just me.  Statistically speaking, however, Lambo's are no where near on retaining their value when compared to Ferrari.  And I doubt that's about to change any time soon even on the few-off models; but, again, that just my take on it.  There is a reason why other brands do not put a supercapacitor with a N/A V12 or any other engine for that matter.  Not even Audi or even Porsche, that should say something.  I would not call it selling out like hot cakes as it is a low-volume production after all.  If you compare to other limited editions from say Bugatti, Ferrari, Koenigsegg or even Aston Martin, the rate that the Sian was being spoken for is actually rather slow.  But, to be fair, it all depends on the marketing technique of the company.

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I agree with most of your points. I was trying to explain the difference between the 2 designers. We got a breath of fresh air with Sian even though the design is still similar to the Countach style as I would caIl it. Hope that fresh page in terms of design will come with the Aventador's replacement. 

I knew about their "PR" statements regarding the AC/ ISR transmission. I was wondering more about if it actually works in the real world use or if it is just their typical PR statement without any effect.

I agree that the worth is subjective. While limited Lambo models are still nowhere near the prices of limited Ferrari models overall, I have noticed a noticeable amount of increase in the interest for these one-off models from Lamborghini. Probably because of the increase in the amount of exposure of these models in media during these last couple of years. YouTubers have had a big play in that, especially this year. ( Multiple in-depth reviews of Reventon, Veneno and Centenario.)

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2 hours ago, APB said:

I think it is the best one-off interpretation of the Aventador chassis so far. You look at a Veneno or a Centenario and you clearly see the AV chassis. Sian hides it very well. What I'm wondering most about is if the supercapacitator has fixed the ISR transmission at low speeds? 

Now is Sian worth it's price? By now it is probably worth a lot more, especially with the recent Lamborghini one-off auction result. On top of that this is far more unique than a Centenario. I bet you nobody else will put a supercapacitator with a N/A V12 and sell it out like hot cakes for this sort of price. 

In other news, ALA 3.0 is well underway for a certain model. 

I don't know about the long term value on the Sian, but I agree you with this one-off interpretation of the Aventador is the best one so far.   

The supercapacitor fixing the ISR gearbox is really Lamborghini to trying to put a band-aid on a fundamental engineering design flaw that has been plaguing the Aventador since the beginning.  If the Aventador had the latest dual clutch gearbox from Porsche or Ferrari, the Aventador would be 2secs faster from 0-150 right away.  

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APB: it’s all good.  I also concur to your analysis.  Let’s hope the AC motor will perform as it was meant to be.  Although I must say I am not holding my breath on this.  And there are already rumours leaking from staffs of Lambo SpA that the next flagship will indeed have a DCT.

Unotaz: wow, that pic is indeed disappointing.  I guess it is treated as a prototype and hence the lack of quality.  Supposedly, Lambo is really picky about the CF quality.  The top air inlets/scoops on each side of the engine cover in CF is suppose to have a QC rejection rate of 1 in 3.  Clearly your pic has proven otherwise.

Apparently, the one-off department is suppose to be a lot more creative/adventurous than that SC-18 Alston unveiled last year.  During a chat at an unveiling event, one of the Lambo top-brass said the owner went cold feet when he was presented the budget for an all-out restyling and opted to choose a mild derivative of the standard Aventador instead.  That’s too bad if it’s true.  Although I can’t get over the fact that it’s still more or less an Aventador underneath.

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4 hours ago, VCR said:

APB: it’s all good.  I also concur to your analysis.  Let’s hope the AC motor will perform as it was meant to be.  Although I must say I am not holding my breath on this.  And there are already rumours leaking from staffs of Lambo SpA that the next flagship will indeed have a DCT.

Unotaz: wow, that pic is indeed disappointing.  I guess it is treated as a prototype and hence the lack of quality.  Supposedly, Lambo is really picky about the CF quality.  The top air inlets/scoops on each side of the engine cover in CF is suppose to have a QC rejection rate of 1 in 3.  Clearly your pic has proven otherwise.

Apparently, the one-off department is suppose to be a lot more creative/adventurous than that SC-18 Alston unveiled last year.  During a chat at an unveiling event, one of the Lambo top-brass said the owner went cold feet when he was presented the budget for an all-out restyling and opted to choose a mild derivative of the standard Aventador instead.  That’s too bad if it’s true.  Although I can’t get over the fact that it’s still more or less an Aventador underneath.

@VCR have you heard anything about whether or not they’ll use the same CF tub from the Aventador for its replacement? 

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Great posts A.

In regards to the replacement, is there a possibility Lamborghini comes out with a refresh Aventador sort of like the 458>488 instead of a full replacement?

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1 hour ago, Luxeous said:

@VCR have you heard anything about whether or not they’ll use the same CF tub from the Aventador for its replacement? 

 

1 hour ago, sl55 said:

Great posts A.

In regards to the replacement, is there a possibility Lamborghini comes out with a refresh Aventador sort of like the 458>488 instead of a full replacement?

I thought we learned from an interview of Maurizio Reggiani posted here a while back that the Aventador replacement is a ground up new design? Which means new CF tub, a DCT transmission, V12 and with pure electric range which means LiFe batteries and not just super capacitor hybrid system. 

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Luxeous, as expected, Lambo is being very coy about it.  They said it’ll be a DCT but when asked about the chassis, they replied “we can’t confirm on that”.  I think logic would dictate that Lambo would source a DCT from the VAG parts bin and make revisions on the CF tub to accommodate it.  This would be far less expensive than to re-engineer an existing or even to develope a new DCT that would fit the original Aventador tub.  And I doubt Lambo would have the funding for a new tranny.  The most optimistic ideal would be to develope a new smaller DCT that can universally fit in many of the VAG’s higher end brands.  But that’s likely wishful thinking.

 

Thanks J.  All hints suggest that the new flagship with still be based on the AV’s chassis and engine block with modifications to integrate DCT & hybrid tech.  It would be more like the move from the Diablo to the Murcielago rather than the jump from the Murcielago to the Aventador where everything is brand new.  Again, Lambo would not have the funds for that and no way would VAG authorize that kind of funding.

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2 minutes ago, Speed Demon said:

 

We know with certainty from an interview Of Maurizio Reggiani posted here a while back that the Aventador replacement is a ground up new design. Which means new CF tub, a DCT transmission, V12 and pure electric range which means LiFe batteries and not just super capacitor hybrid system. 

Hmmm... I heard from Maurizio in Geneva that it’ll still be a V12 with hybrid tech (batteries instead of supercapacitors) & DCT.  But he neither confirmed nor denied on anything related to the CF tub/chassis.

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5 minutes ago, VCR said:

Luxeous, as expected, Lambo is being very coy about it.  They said it’ll be a DCT but when asked about the chassis, they replied “we can’t confirm on that”.  I think logic would dictate that Lambo would source a DCT from the VAG parts bin and make revisions on the CF tub to accommodate it.  This would be far less expensive than to re-engineer an existing or even to develope a new DCT that would fit the original Aventador tub.  And I doubt Lambo would have the funding for a new tranny.  The most optimistic ideal would be to develope a new smaller DCT that can universally fit in many of the VAG’s higher end brands.  But that’s likely wishful thinking.

 

Thanks J.  All hints suggest that the new flagship with still be based on the AV’s chassis and engine block with modifications to integrate DCT & hybrid tech.  It would be more like the move from the Diablo to the Murcielago rather than the jump from the Murcielago to the Aventador where everything is brand new.  Again, Lambo would not have the funds for that and no way would VAG authorize that kind of funding.

So it is possible to integrate a DCT into the Aventador chassis and CF tub? 

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20 minutes ago, VCR said:

Hmmm... I heard from Maurizio in Geneva that it’ll still be a V12 with hybrid tech (batteries instead of supercapacitors) & DCT.  But he neither confirmed nor denied on anything related to the CF tub/chassis.

You have better information than me. I am going by the interview and “assumed” that the confirmation of the DCT meant a new CF tub as I had heard repeatedly from my dealer that the current Aventador tub cannot take a DCT. 

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6 hours ago, Speed Demon said:

So it is possible to integrate a DCT into the Aventador chassis and CF tub? 

Not possible.  Transmission tunnel area is too small. 

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1 hour ago, Unotaz said:

Not possible.  Transmission tunnel area is too small. 

That’s what I had read and heard too.  So the Aventador replacement, confirmed to have a DCT, must have a new CF tub. 

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My thoughts exactly @VCR - I just don't see them having the funds to make an entirely new tub. IMO it would have to be more of a Diablo to Murci move than ground up given the current status with VAG and funding the brand. 

Anyone here an engineer that knows how difficult it would be to modify the mold of a CF monocoque? lol

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Unotaz is correct. That’s the issue all along: the current CF tub on the AV is too narrow for a DCT. 
As to being new, I suppose it depends on the context of the term.  IMO, it’ll be a mod rather than brand new from the ground up.  Is a mod considered “new”, I guess it can go either way but in marketing terms, it would be a yes.  
I am no engineer but I would think that redesigning the tub is likely the easiest part of the process.  It’s the costs of retooling the associated hardware to make the revised tub, all the costs of testing and new certifications of it and likely the necessity of redesigning the  cabin (along with its own testing & certifications) that’s keeping things from happening within the lifespan of the Aventador series.  Let’s hope these will all be happening in the next flagship model.

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