There really are no cars to buy!

HAHA.. Lambo said the Countach goes 200mph!

 

See the latest issue of EVO. Harry Metcalfe got his new Countach up to 195mph .

 

Also, it seems that Lambo has lately been under-promising and over-delivering. Weren't we all talking about how the 560 was underrated? Lambo said the 560 would do 0-60 in 3.7, Road & Track clocked it at 3.2.

HAHA.. Lambo said the Countach goes 200mph!

 

 

And it does.....standing still

 

 

Webster, I have has mine in the 190's on many occasions, but how fast are we really going, i'm guessing not 195?!!

 

That said, a well set up euro dd is a faster car than Allan would have believe....

You certainly shouldn't pay any kind of money for car you don't like the looks of. Being attracted to a car at this price point is a huge part of the appeal. I was at the showing and I really liked what I saw. Enough to put down an order. So whether you're a "major player" or not doesn't really seem to matter much. You certainly shouldn't buy a car that isn't to your liking. I'm personally not much excited for the McLaren. I'm sure it'll be a great car, but visually it's certainly MUCH less interesting than the LP700 (to me).

 

So I don't understand why anyone would recommend against you getting the LP700 simply based on what they think of the looks. Putting down any kind of money without seeing the car would be crazy. So once you get a chance to see the final product in a month or so, then would be the right time to consider whether you should "step up" or not.

 

 

 

 

So two points. 1st yr lambos are "destroyed" in value and 1st year lambos have teething problems. One at the time:

 

1) Ferraris and Lambos alike are getting "destroyed" in value. It doesn't matter if they're first year and last year. A Scuderia opened the ball game at 80K over. They're now trading 100K under MSRP for lightly used cars. So that's 180K in value destroyed for those first in line. A SLR convertible lists at ~500 and can be had at less than half. Any fancy car launched since the Great Recession started has seen values tumble. How well are those Phantoms doing?

 

So that's just the facts of buying a new car that costs 200K+. You're going to take a bath. There are very few exceptions to this rule (Californias and R8 currently come to mind). This is a general point and I don't think that a 1st year LP700 is going to do any better or worse. Or actually, I think it's going to do better than a lot of cars. For the first year or so, I doubt we'll see anything brutal going on. Certainly nothing like buying a brand new SLR convertible or Phantom would go through.

 

2) Audi is running the quality show at Lamborghini at a completely different level now. The 560 launched with new transmission, new engine, new suspension, and I got one of the first ones off the boat. That car has been completely rock solid. Audi's R8 has been completely solid. The amount of testing that has gone into the LP700 is on a different planet than the amount of testing that went into the first Murci. I'm willing to bet that the LP700 is going to launch with less problems than the 458 (we won't see them burning down left and right) because of how solid the Audi involvement now is.

 

 

 

I have driven both and there's no denying that the transmission of the 458 is much smoother and more modern. The entire package of the 458 is great. But as a instrument for going fast on road or track, the Superleggera is more than holding its own. Check lap times around any of the standard circuits and it's a dead heat. The 458 isn't trouncing the SL in a straight line either.

 

I think most people feel like the Superleggera feels old because it feels very familiar. It's roughly the same shape and interior as what they premiered in 2004. Something that familiar is going to feel old.

 

Also, I think you should exactly examine the SL and the 458 as complete packages. As a random guy off the street, you'd be hard pressed to find a 458 at under 280-300. A random guy off the street could get an SL for a good 50K below that.

 

 

 

 

I think those members should do the math. Look at the Scuderia vs the 560. Both introduced at the same time, Scuderia lost much more money in real terms. In fact, I'm willing to wager that by the time the LP700 drops, the premium on the 458 will be gone in most places and it'll be selling at MSRP. That means that anyone who buys one today will have to kiss the 30-50K in premium they would pay now goodbye.

 

 

 

 

I certainly don't like pissing my money away and whether it's a major extravagance or not, I wouldn't want to drive something off the lot and kiss goodbye to 150K in the first year. I just don't see that happening with the LP700. If the numbers that I just got double confirmation on today are correct, nice cars will be had at a tick over 400. So that means that the LP700 is going to be selling for 250K in 12 months for the horror scenario to play out. Really? Hell, even late stage 640 roadsters who are running on a 10-yr old platform hardly loose that much money in a year.

 

Here's my bet. I think the car will loose between 40-70K in one year. That's certainly real money, but not drastically worse than how you'd fair paying market price for a 458.

 

 

 

 

So a nice McLaren will be 260K sticker. Do you think it'll actually sell at sticker? I doubt anyone who's not the dealer's best friend is going to drive that car off the lot at sticker (in fact, I know someone who IS the dealer's best friend and he's been asked to wait until their clear out the first cars at big premiums). So say most customer cars drive off early at 300 (that's 40k over, much less than what the 458 started at). So for the extra 100K up to a LP700 you're going to get a car that's much more exciting looking (imo and probably in your opinion too), has 100hp more, and will be produced in much lower numbers. The McLaren MIGHT be faster on a track (due to weight and brake-steer), but there's no way it's going to be faster from a dig or a roll in a straight line. So I just don't see where all the ass busting is going to come from.

 

Oh, also. If you're afraid of teething problems with a Lamborghini that has Audi watching over it for quality control and is presumably using "old" (tested and true) technology, how do you think the McLaren will do? They've had to built a whole consumer side business up from scratch. Brand new EVERYTHING. Every piece of the car is new. Certainly a more daunting task. Now I think both cars are going to come out with very few gremlins, so to me it's not a real issue. But Lambo certainly has an easier task before it.

 

Long story short.... Im too tired to write a book... I never factor into depreciation people paying OVER sticker on an Fcar.. I would never do that, and real customers get them at sticker..

 

I will agree on the Lp570 vs 458 debate.. The fact is that you are paying ATLEAST sticker for the 458 and the 570 at sticker is a similar price... No one is willing to pay sticker for an lp570, vs everyone will pay sticker for the 458 happily or as you have stated...OVER STICKER... So now you have a huge price difference between the 2.... Someone like me, is willing to forgo the newness of the 458, to keep 50-75K in his pocket, and even moreso with a few hundred miles on the Lp570... That doesnt change which is the BETTER car..

 

As for the Mclaren.. again.. I would NEVER pay over... It will definitely be faster from a dig and from a roll than the 570... Lambo quality control on the AUDI spec Lambos ( Gallardo) is far different than the flagships.. Ask those SV owners how their clutches are doing...

See the latest issue of EVO. Harry Metcalfe got his new Countach up to 195mph .

 

Also, it seems that Lambo has lately been under-promising and over-delivering. Weren't we all talking about how the 560 was underrated? Lambo said the 560 would do 0-60 in 3.7, Road & Track clocked it at 3.2.

Road and Track also clocked the cars at 11.2@129 in the 1/4.... No one, myself included has ever been able to duplicate anything remotely close... My time was 3.5 to 60, and 11.6@124 in the 1/4, something which was confirmed again repeatedly by others..

And it does.....standing still

 

 

Webster, I have has mine in the 190's on many occasions, but how fast are we really going, i'm guessing not 195?!!

 

That said, a well set up euro dd is a faster car than Allan would have believe....

Dont forget, I had a Countach, one which would I put against ANY euro DD...

Buying now makes no sense if you don't really like the the new cars. Here's what is coming out soon:

 

12C

Lp700

 

Here's what will be out in 1.5-2 years or very close to being released:

 

12C, 12C Spyder, 12C competition mules, new McLaren Flagship mules

LP700, LP700 Roadster, LP700 something-edition

New Gallardo mules will definitely be seen

458 Spyder, 458 Scuderia mules

Ferrari V12

Lotus something

Porsche 991 series

 

 

So here's what you do: Take a vacation for a year and go find something else to do because there are no new cars that interest you. Then buy a used LP700/12C at a big discount. Drive that for 1 year and get bored of it like you always do. Now you're 1.75-2 years in the future and there are waaaay more cars on the horizon.

 

Long story short.... Im too tired to write a book... I never factor into depreciation people paying OVER sticker on an Fcar.. I would never do that, and real customers get them at sticker..

 

This.

 

I don't think it's fair to compare Scuderia premium depreciation vs MSRP 560 buyers. The premium is not the real price since most initial buyers pay sticker.

Buying now makes no sense if you don't really like the the new cars. Here's what is coming out soon:

 

So here's what you do: Take a vacation for a year and go find something else to do because there are no new cars that interest you. Then buy a used LP700/12C at a big discount. Drive that for 1 year and get bored of it like you always do. Now you're 1.75-2 years in the future and there are waaaay more cars on the horizon.

 

 

 

DROP

 

 

 

 

HEAD.

 

 

 

 

DO

 

 

 

 

IT

Totally agree with this post. We are in a transition period with all these manufactures.

Buying now makes no sense if you don't really like the the new cars. Here's what is coming out soon:

 

12C

Lp700

 

Here's what will be out in 1.5-2 years or very close to being released:

 

12C, 12C Spyder, 12C competition mules, new McLaren Flagship mules

LP700, LP700 Roadster, LP700 something-edition

New Gallardo mules will definitely be seen

458 Spyder, 458 Scuderia mules

Ferrari V12

Lotus something

Porsche 991 series

 

 

So here's what you do: Take a vacation for a year and go find something else to do because there are no new cars that interest you. Then buy a used LP700/12C at a big discount. Drive that for 1 year and get bored of it like you always do. Now you're 1.75-2 years in the future and there are waaaay more cars on the horizon.

 

This.

 

I don't think it's fair to compare Scuderia premium depreciation vs MSRP 560 buyers. The premium is not the real price since most initial buyers pay sticker.

 

Please tell me where "most initial buyers" can buy a 458 right now at sticker. I tried to buy one from Auto Gallery in LA just before the new year. The best they were willing to go were 30k over (and I was only willing to pay sticker). And this is a dealership I've bought 3 cars from. You can generally order one at MSRP now, but it's for Fall/Winter delivery.

 

So yes, you'll be able to buy a 458 at sticker if you're willing to wait a long time. If Allan wants a car now or within a few months, I don't think he's getting a car at sticker -- unless he's got some great contacts that most people don't have access to.

 

The premium is certainly the real price for anyone who later have to sell that car. Tons of people have bought the 458 at a premium. It's very real to all of them.

 

(This is very much a local market problem. I know that the over-sticker-on-a-new-ferrari game is not as prevalent in EU as it is in the US.)

As for the Mclaren.. again.. I would NEVER pay over... It will definitely be faster from a dig and from a roll than the 570... Lambo quality control on the AUDI spec Lambos ( Gallardo) is far different than the flagships.. Ask those SV owners how their clutches are doing...

 

The SV was built on the same assembly line that Lambo already had for the original Murci. So they were working off 10 year old assembly designs. It's a car of a different era.

 

I'll guarantee you that the LP700 is going to feel better built than even the Gallardo (which had great build quality). I was incredibly impressed by the build quality at the showing. It felt very state of the art. Great tolerances, very solid. The new assembly line is the latest shit. You can't compare it to what Lambo were setting up a decade ago when they only just had gotten Audi involved.

But regardless of all the chatter back and forth, at the end of the day buying a car is rarely rational. There's only so much that can be had by trying to reduce this to a pro/con list. Looking forward to see what ever you decide.

It's pretty simple, mod the porshe a lot more and buy the drophead, there really arent any other options for you Allan. I am like Allan, I am not going to order a car (mclaren or lp700) until its been out for awhile and I know what I am dealing with. I am however very interested in both cars, and will probably own both at some point in the future after theyve taken their big depreciation hit.

I've got Allans solution..

You said you were thinking s convertible sounded fun.

Wait and get a SLS convertible!

The freaking Superleggera is already giving the 458 a run for it's money with a transmission that's twice as slow

 

Sorry my friend. No.

 

Driven both and it's not even a contest. The 458 is a much better car. And the transmission is a huge difference.

 

Maybe you missed the December 2010 issue of Car and Driver? The 570 and 458 turned in identical instrumented performance results.

Maybe you missed the December 2010 issue of Car and Driver? The 570 and 458 turned in identical instrumented performance results.

 

That's unpossible! The Ferrari has race technology derived DIRECTLY from F1!!!

That's unpossible! The Ferrari has race technology derived DIRECTLY from F1!!!

 

 

Come on, what DOES stand out in LA? It's a multi-million/billion city, what else can you expect.

 

 

Even bentley's aren't special over there.

 

This would

 

Hardcore

 

Does this interest you?

Buying now makes no sense if you don't really like the the new cars. Here's what is coming out soon:

 

12C

Lp700

 

Here's what will be out in 1.5-2 years or very close to being released:

 

12C, 12C Spyder, 12C competition mules, new McLaren Flagship mules

LP700, LP700 Roadster, LP700 something-edition

New Gallardo mules will definitely be seen

458 Spyder, 458 Scuderia mules

Ferrari V12

Lotus something

Porsche 991 series

 

 

So here's what you do: Take a vacation for a year and go find something else to do because there are no new cars that interest you. Then buy a used LP700/12C at a big discount. Drive that for 1 year and get bored of it like you always do. Now you're 1.75-2 years in the future and there are waaaay more cars on the horizon.

 

How about living in the present?

 

I wonder how Allan would feel about the LP700 if the bastards from Lamborghini looked after him better?

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMHO there is no way the McLaren is going to outperform the 700 on any level(maybe some tight tracks, MAYBE). I see it beeing overhyped and with alot of media fanatism just as it was with the GTR, but we´ll see soon enough for ourselfes. Of course the modability is something else.

Please tell me where "most initial buyers" can buy a 458 right now at sticker. I tried to buy one from Auto Gallery in LA just before the new year. The best they were willing to go were 30k over (and I was only willing to pay sticker). And this is a dealership I've bought 3 cars from. You can generally order one at MSRP now, but it's for Fall/Winter delivery.

 

So yes, you'll be able to buy a 458 at sticker if you're willing to wait a long time. If Allan wants a car now or within a few months, I don't think he's getting a car at sticker -- unless he's got some great contacts that most people don't have access to.

 

The premium is certainly the real price for anyone who later have to sell that car. Tons of people have bought the 458 at a premium. It's very real to all of them.

 

(This is very much a local market problem. I know that the over-sticker-on-a-new-ferrari game is not as prevalent in EU as it is in the US.)

I can get one....

 

But the real question should be.... Why are people WILLING to pay a premium for the Fcar.... and NOT the Lambo?

It's pretty simple, mod the porshe a lot more and buy the drophead, there really arent any other options for you Allan. I am like Allan, I am not going to order a car (mclaren or lp700) until its been out for awhile and I know what I am dealing with. I am however very interested in both cars, and will probably own both at some point in the future after theyve taken their big depreciation hit.

Maybe you missed the December 2010 issue of Car and Driver? The 570 and 458 turned in identical instrumented performance results.

Maybe you missed the latest EVO magazine where the Lambo was rated 9th out of 10...

This would

 

Hardcore

 

Does this interest you?

That is the worst car possible....

But the real question should be.... Why are people WILLING to pay a premium for the Fcar.... and NOT the Lambo?

 

Hu? Ferrari sells 6000+ cars per year. They have a lot more buyers. When that many buyers chase a hot new model that's in short, introduction supply prices go up. Seems pretty simple.

 

Pretty much every Ferrari for the last many, many years have been going for over sticker because there are too few cars initially for too many cars with prancing horses on their mind.

 

That says exactly nothing about the quality of the product. Did you think the F430 was more of an amazing car when it was competing against the Gallardo and selling for near twice as much?