Gun control in US

I am genuinely sickened by the latest US shooting, second in a week, the loss of innocent lives.

I feel devastated and helpless, I can not beging to imagine how the parents, family and freinds of the victims are feeling right now, lives destroyed, a whole country in mourning

 

The question is how can we avoid this? What's the solution to this problem? Not being able to think of a solution is just as scary as the problem itself!

 

Every time I think of guns I don't really know how to feel about it, I am quite confused to be completely honest.

I have few genuine questions about guns and gun control and I would like to hear the opinion of pro gun people.

 

My instinct of self preservasion makes me want a gun and if I could I would get one right away.

 

The reality is that it is not possible here and in a way I feel it is better this way, I have few reason why I feel the way I feel.

 

I feel it helps keeping guns away from crazy people which scare me a lot more than criminals, the crazies certainly outnumber the criminals.

 

Yes criminals could get them but (at least for me) the chances of being in a situation where you are confronted by one are a lot slimmer, you meet at least one nutcase a day, if everyone was going to carry I wouldn't like my odds.

 

Than you have the opportunists.

 

Think of it as leaving your wallet in your car with the window open in a public car park, by doing so you will quickly turn a crook into a thief, a crook which otherwise wouldn't go through the trouble, too lazy, too scared if they have enough time to think about it.

 

I wonder how many altercations would end up a lot worse if the people involved were to carry, how many people would pull out a gun and use it just because they have one handy rather than avoiding , walking away.

 

I wonder how many accidental shootings are happening because guns are handled by people which have no business touching them, similar with inexperienced people using power tools,

I bet most of you know a person which you wouldn't trust with an angle grinder in their hand but they own a gun.

 

I see a bunch of people which should not be allowed to drive I can't fathom them carrying guns, the prospect frightens me.

 

Having very easy access to guns gives the opportunity to nutcases to obtain them unscrutinized and than go on a rampage.

 

I've looked at some of the profiles of these mass murderers, none of them were hardend criminals with street cred that opted sourcing their arsenal on the black market, majority of them bought the guns and ammunition at the shop or had easy access to them like the scumbag we are talking about today.

 

Of course where there is a will there is a way but I wonder how many of them wouldn't go through the trouble if given the possibility of raising suspicions or being caught.

 

My questions are, I know that's everyone's constitutional right to buy and own guns but

 

1) do you think everyone should have the right to do so?

 

2) do you think there should be a more stringent gun control, how would you implement it?

 

3) what's the solution, in your opinion, to the "gun problem"?

I am genuinely sickened by the latest US shooting, second in a week, the loss of innocent lives.

I feel devastated and helpless, I can not beging to imagine how the parents, family and freinds of the victims are feeling right now, lives destroyed, a whole country in mourning

 

The question is how can we avoid this? What's the solution to this problem? Not being able to think of a solution is just as scary as the problem itself!

 

Every time I think of guns I don't really know how to feel about it, I am quite confused to be completely honest.

I have few genuine questions about guns and gun control and I would like to hear the opinion of pro gun people.

 

My instinct of self preservasion makes me want a gun and if I could I would get one right away.

 

The reality is that it is not possible here and in a way I feel it is better this way, I have few reason why I feel the way I feel.

 

I feel it helps keeping guns away from crazy people which scare me a lot more than criminals, the crazies certainly outnumber the criminals.

 

Yes criminals could get them but (at least for me) the chances of being in a situation where you are confronted by one are a lot slimmer, you meet at least one nutcase a day, if everyone was going to carry I wouldn't like my odds.

 

Than you have the opportunists.

 

Think of it as leaving your wallet in your car with the window open in a public car park, by doing so you will quickly turn a crook into a thief, a crook which otherwise wouldn't go through the trouble, too lazy, too scared if they have enough time to think about it.

 

I wonder how many altercations would end up a lot worse if the people involved were to carry, how many people would pull out a gun and use it just because they have one handy rather than avoiding , walking away.

First of all, you don't have to wonder... America is the testing ground and the answer is ZERO... Guns may not LOWER crime (although there is evidence they MAY) but the statistics are clear... They do not increase it.

I wonder how many accidental shootings are happening because guns are handled by people which have no business touching them, similar with inexperienced people using power tools,

I bet most of you know a person which you wouldn't trust with an angle grinder in their hand but they own a gun.

I dont

I see a bunch of people which should not be allowed to drive I can't fathom them carrying guns, the prospect frightens me.

 

Having very easy access to guns gives the opportunity to nutcases to obtain them unscrutinized and than go on a rampage.

 

I've looked at some of the profiles of these mass murderers, none of them were hardend criminals with street cred that opted sourcing their arsenal on the black market, majority of them bought the guns and ammunition at the shop or had easy access to them like the scumbag we are talking about today.

 

Of course where there is a will there is a way but I wonder how many of them wouldn't go through the trouble if given the possibility of raising suspicions or being caught.

 

My questions are, I know that's everyone's constitutional right to buy and own guns but

 

1) do you think everyone should have the right to do so?

 

2) do you think there should be a more stringent gun control, how would you implement it?

 

3) what's the solution, in your opinion, to the "gun problem"?

 

I understand your feelings... However, the kneejerk reaction of "dosomethingism" usually results in the WRONG decision.

 

Again... This is an INCREDIBLY isolated event... INCREDIBLY RARE... Its a Tragedy for the parents, and a tragedy for the country, but that doesnt mean "We need a law". Such laws enacted in the wake of tragedies never accomplish much.... They usually bring dozens of unintended consequences, and are usually more about the political grandstanding of their authors, than anything else.

 

Here's the deal... What can be done to make this never happen again?

 

The Politicians answer will be to give you a laundry list of new laws... Laws that will neither undue what has happened, or prevent it from happening again, and ultimately will only make all of us a little less free...

 

Because the ADULT answer to the question of "what can be done to make this never happen again?" is "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING".

 

What can be done to forever prevent children from getting cancer? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

 

What can be done to forever prevent monsters from raping children? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

 

What can be done to forever prevent people from hurting each other? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

 

We can punish those who do, and try to set an example for others.... But if somebody is willing to DIE THEMSELVES in the process, then there is ZERO we can do to stop them....

 

I understand your feelings... However, the kneejerk reaction of "dosomethingism" usually results in the WRONG decision.

 

Again... This is an INCREDIBLY isolated event... INCREDIBLY RARE... Its a Tragedy for the parents, and a tragedy for the country, but that doesnt mean "We need a law". Such laws enacted in the wake of tragedies never accomplish much.... They usually bring dozens of unintended consequences, and are usually more about the political grandstanding of their authors, than anything else.

 

Here's the deal... What can be done to make this never happen again?

 

The Politicians answer will be to give you a laundry list of new laws... Laws that will neither undue what has happened, or prevent it from happening again, and ultimately will only make all of us a little less free...

 

Because the ADULT answer to the question of "what can be done to make this never happen again?" is "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING".

 

What can be done to forever prevent children from getting cancer? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

 

What can be done to forever prevent monsters from raping children? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

 

What can be done to forever prevent people from hurting each other? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

 

We can punish those who do, and try to set an example for others.... But if somebody is willing to DIE THEMSELVES in the process, then there is ZERO we can do to stop them....

I can't foresee a more pragmatic commentary than this.

I think its a tough one and I don't like knee-jerk reactions to gun laws after something like this has happened. Unfortunately it is happening too often now and I don't think its possible/responsible to ignore or at least recognize that guns are an issue in the U.S.

 

On the one hand, it is a constitutional right to own guns in the U.S. You can also argue that if you were to "outlaw" guns, "law-abiding" citizens would be at a disadvantage because they would not be able to legally own a gun and thus would be "easy targets" for folks who possess them illegally. Those are pretty common arguments I think.

 

The problem though. i believe, is that there are so many guns in the U.S. there would be no way to get them out of the hands of those who would use them illegally. Why would they turn them in at this point, even if owning one were against the law? I think the only effective way to control guns in the U.S. at this point (and by that I mean control as in what Bloomburg would want, etc.) would be to have a magic wand and make every gun in the U.S. disappear and then start over with strict regulations so that only responsible, sane, nonviolent, people have a chance to possess a firearm....but then how do you prevent such a person from going nuts? I think its impossible. At this point, I don't believe there is a way to implement any type of control measure that would prevent what seems to be happening more and more. Its sad. Its really sad.

 

 

 

 

 

The mall shooter stole his gun and this guy took his mom's legally-acquired guns. In both instances, if you had to undergo psychological testing and acquire a license with extensive training to legally own guns, neither would have stopped the shootings from happening.

The mall shooter stole his gun and this guy took his mom's legally-acquired guns. In both instances, if you had to undergo psychological testing and acquire a license with extensive training to legally own guns, neither would have stopped the shootings from happening.

Yes but if mom didn't have a gun, would those kids still be dead? If he had to go to very extreme lengths to get a gun rather than just go in his mom's nightstand or closet and grab it, would this have still happened? These two shootings are still fresh in our minds but lets not forget the movie theater shooting that happened not too long ago and another one that was prevented because the mom turned her son in. These events are becoming less and less rare. Not only that, we are not even looking at day to day gun violence, but one time mass murders.

 

I dont have the statistics but it would be interesting to compare the rate and number of gun homicides among wealthy developed nations similar to the USA.

1) do you think everyone should have the right to do so?

 

2) do you think there should be a more stringent gun control, how would you implement it?

 

3) what's the solution, in your opinion, to the "gun problem"?

 

Btw, I didnt directly answer your questions, and I want to...

 

1. No. Felons and the mentally ill, and people who live with either, should not be allowed own guns.

 

2. Yes. If you are Diagnosed with any form significant mental illness by a mental health professional (Schizophrenia, Depression, Psychosis, OCD, NPD, Etc.) or are prescribed any medication commonly used to treat the above, there should be a website where the mental health professional HAS to report you (or an automatic red flag system for the pharmacist) that will prevent you, or anybody else at your address from buying a gun. When someone attempts to do so, the instant background check should simply give out a code that says "no gun for you today". At that point an ATF agent should go to the address and interview the person to find out whats up... Are they mildly depressed because mom died? Or are they barking fcuking mad? We have all these fcuking ATF agents... Instead of having them crawl up FFLs asses looking for picayune paperwork mistakes, get them out in the field talking to the very few potential gun owners who might be a problem... Use some police skills... Is this a guy who is OK to have a gun? Is this a guy who isnt OK to have a gun? Or is this a guy who should have his own fcuking cop watching his every move for a few weeks?

 

3. The solution is be less REACTIVE and more PROACTIVE.... instead of Glenn Close having an add saying how we should all get over the stigma of Mental Illness, she should be doing a commercial that says, "hey... If you have a kid, and the voice in the back of your head has you worried every time the phone rings that its going to be the cops telling you he just shot up the preschool, call this number and get him some fcuking help, because you're probably right."

 

 

The answer to this is simple... Its the OPPOSITE of "Mind Your Own Business". When I was a kid, nobody was out shooting up schools... Back then the vogue crimes were ASSASSINATIONS, and SERIAL KILLERS.

 

What would they say every time a Serial Killer was caught? "Oh wow, he was a great neighbor! I just cant believe he would do that!" You know why? Because serial killers HAVE TO INTERACT with their victims... They have to APPEAR not only NORMAL, but usually CHARMING... Or they would never be able to convince anybody to go anywhere with them....

 

Assassins are a LOT like these school shooters... They're often motivated by the SAME IMPULSES... What did the neighbors always say about the assassins? "He was a loner" "He was ranting about this cause or that" "He was weird" "really quiet" "I lived here for years and never met him"... These fcuking people are NUTS! And THEY AREN'T VERY GOOD AT HIDING IT... Now if people would start MENTIONING IT TO SOMEBODY BEFORE HAND, PROBLEM SOLVED!

Yes but if mom didn't have a gun, would those kids still be dead? If he had to go to very extreme lengths to get a gun rather than just go in his mom's nightstand or closet and grab it, would this have still happened? These two shootings are still fresh in our minds but lets not forget the movie theater shooting that happened not too long ago and another one that was prevented because the mom turned her son in. These events are becoming less and less rare. Not only that, we are not even looking at day to day gun violence, but one time mass murders.

 

To ban the guns his mom had, you might as well ban all guns period is the thing. It wasn't like she had some kind of special high-powered machine gun or something.

 

I dont have the statistics but it would be interesting to compare the rate and number of gun homicides among wealthy developed nations similar to the USA.

 

You have to be careful there. Gun laws and gun crime are weakly related. Much of the gun violence in the U.S. occurs in the inner-cities with hand guns, which gives the impression of the U.S. as being a more violent society than it really is.

2. Yes. If you are Diagnosed with any form significant mental illness by a mental health professional (Schizophrenia, Depression, Psychosis, OCD, NPD, Etc.) or are prescribed any medication commonly used to treat the above, there should be a website where the mental health professional HAS to report you (or an automatic red flag system for the pharmacist) that will prevent you, or anybody else at your address from buying a gun. When someone attempts to do so, the instant background check should simply give out a code that says "no gun for you today". At that point an ATF agent should go to the address and interview the person to find out whats up... Are they mildly depressed because mom died? Or are they barking fcuking mad? We have all these fcuking ATF agents... Instead of having them crawl up FFLs asses looking for picayune paperwork mistakes, get them out in the field talking to the very few potential gun owners who might be a problem... Use some police skills... Is this a guy who is OK to have a gun? Is this a guy who isnt OK to have a gun? Or is this a guy who should have his own fcuking cop watching his every move for a few weeks?

 

Just curious, but why OCD? How does a person with OCD constitute a threat?

Just curious, but why OCD? How does a person with OCD constitute a threat?

 

 

OCD can be its own disease... But it is often a symptom of other more severe mental illnesses... The OCD MIND gets a thought stuck in it... And the compulsion is to carry it out... If that thought is "I must wash my hands because if I dont I will get cancer", and you wash them until your hands bleed, well, you only hurt yourself... If the thought is "I have to kill a bunch of people, or the world will end" and you follow through with it....

To ban the guns his mom had, you might as well ban all guns period is the thing. It wasn't like she had some kind of special high-powered machine gun or something.

Bingo! It's a tool designed to KILL... assault rifle or hand gun, it doesnt matter. Its just that one is designed to kill more quickly and more easily and from a farther distance. Yes I could kill someone with a car or butter knife if I really wanted to, but its MUCH more difficult. They aren't meant to kill, especially not in large number.

 

You have to be careful there. Gun laws and gun crime are weakly related. Much of the gun violence in the U.S. occurs in the inner-cities with hand guns, which gives the impression of the U.S. as being a more violent society than it really is.

 

So even if statistics showed that among comparable countries like Canada, the UK, Germany, Japan etc etc (ie wealthy developed nations) the rate of gun crime was higher in the USA, what would you think would be the cause of such a disparity?

I'm pretty sure gun sales will be going up for the near term.

 

I have a big fear that this could have far reaching legal ramifications such as what happened in 911. Many people can argue good laws came out of that for the safety in US but many could argue that those laws wouldn't have been enacted if 911 didn't happen. The power the government has if they want to use the patriot act as there cause is kind of scary.

 

Just imagine the country enacts some new crazy gun tracking laws using GPS in guns and law enforcement can do random gun checks in people's houses. This may be a long way out but I could see this in the future.

Bingo!

 

 

 

So even if statistics showed that among comparable countries like Canada, the UK, Germany, Japan etc etc (ie wealthy developed nations) the rate of gun crime was higher in the USA, what would you think would be the cause of such a disparity?

 

I don't care.

 

To ban guns in the U.S. would take a Constitutional Amendment (and most likely another civil war, that would cost MILLIONS of lives, so if SAVING lives is your real concern, wipe that thought from your mind).

I'm pretty sure gun sales will be going up for the near term.

 

I have a big fear that this could have far reaching legal ramifications such as what happened in 911. Many people can argue good laws came out of that for the safety in US but many could argue that those laws wouldn't have been enacted if 911 didn't happen. The power the government has if they want to use the patriot act as there cause is kind of scary.

 

Just imagine the country enacts some new crazy gun tracking laws using GPS in guns and law enforcement can do random gun checks in people's houses. This may be a long way out but I could see this in the future.

 

 

Ive had a couple of people PM me for help with purchases.... Its Roman's "TAKE YOUR FRIENDS TO THE GUN SHOP WEEK!"

People calling for more gun control laws fail to recognize the MANY MANY laws that this shooter broke today...(I'm talking about gun-specifc laws aside from the unmitigated atrocity of the cold-blooded murders of these children and their teachers)

 

1) Possibly theft if he stole the firearms from his mother

2) Probably illegal transport (it's not easy to legally transport a gun in a car, especially without a CCW permit, he probably didn't achieve it)

3) Possession of a firearm on school grounds (felony)

4) Discharging a firearm within city limits

5) Unlawful possession of a handgun (must be 21+ in CT)

6) Inducing panic with a weapon

 

The list goes on! Shooting up a school, mall, or Safeway is ALREADY ILLEGAL. That doesn't impact the ability of these people to do so and it doesn't make anyone feel better when they succeed in carrying out their destruction.

 

I'm with RomanDad, I don't think much can be done except possibly to increase security and response options at places where active shooters tend to pop up -- malls and schools are both good examples. The shitty thing is that when someone is willing to go down with the ship, the ship cannot be legislated off course.

Ive had a couple of people PM me for help with purchases.... Its Roman's "TAKE YOUR FRIENDS TO THE GUN SHOP WEEK!"

I would love to know how to purchase (I currently reside in the city of San Francisco). If its possible, I would love some help being pointed in the right direction.

I would love to know how to purchase (I currently reside in the city of San Francisco). If its possible, I would love some help being pointed in the right direction.

 

Of course its possible... Are you a felon or are you insane? U.S. citizen or resident alien? Dishonorable discharge?

Bingo!

 

That would infringe on people's fundamental right to protect themselves and also would leave them defenseless against the criminals who would be illegally armed. Assault rifles are banned for the most part, but that didn't stop the guys in the 1997 North Hollywood shootout from somehow acquiring them and using them.

 

 

So even if statistics showed that among comparable countries like Canada, the UK, Germany, Japan etc etc (ie wealthy developed nations) the rate of gun crime was higher in the USA, what would you think would be the cause of such a disparity?

 

Gun violence levels are more due to culture and things such as gangs, drugs, breakdown of the family unit, and so forth. For example, Japan has very strict gun laws, and low gun crime, but look at how the Japanese behaved in the wake of their major earthquake. No rioting or looting at all. So I'd attribute their lower crime to their culture. Germany has VERY restrictive gun laws, and yet has had multiple school shootings. In 2009, they had a shooting where 16 people were killed and another 11 wounded. Then the gunman escaped to a car dealership, and engaged in a shootout with the police, who killed him. In 2002, they had a school shooting in which the guy killed 13 faculty members, 2 students, and one police officer, then himself. He used a shotgun and a handgun, both nearly impossible to legally acquire in Germany. Gun laws and control are not the answer to these mass killings.

Just yesterday, a man walked into an elementary school in China and began slashing children with a knife. He got to 22 of them before they arrested him. What happened in Connecticut today is not so much a gun rights issue as a human issue. Let's focus more on the why versus the how.

 

Link: 22 children stabbed at Chinese elementary school

This is interesting reading -- CT's gun laws. They have a waiting period, an application to the Commissioner of Public Safety for a handgun, gun registration for "assault weapons" (which would include the AR from this incident), etc. So many of the things that pro gun control people demand did absolutely nothing.

 

CT gun laws -- NRA-ILA

Ive had a couple of people PM me for help with purchases.... Its Roman's "TAKE YOUR FRIENDS TO THE GUN SHOP WEEK!"

 

Just picked up an AR and an extra 33-round Glock mag tonight -- the pricing on these items is virtually guaranteed to spike at the very least. May as well get them now.

I live in Texas, and am a gun owner, I have a couple in my home and in my cars. I do not consider myself a gun nut, I dont go to gun shows and very rarely go to the range, I own guns because I have been shot at and do not want to be in a defenseless position ever again. In other words, I do not enjoy owning guns.

 

I do not see the point of owning an assault riffle, they are not good for hunting, and not good for defense, the only use for these weapons is to attack someone. so I would support a ban on these guns.

 

 

I'm grateful I can come to LP and get some level-headed discussion with people who know their stuff, viz. Roman and Milligan about firearms. There are too many stupid people in positions to make changes these days, and I don't like it one bit.

I completely agree with Roman, we need more help for people with mental problems, and it needs to be addressed by the parents when the kids are younger and they don't have a say in it. By the time they are 18 and off the rails, its a runaway train and we're all along for the ride.

 

Its been proven pretty solidly that ultimate gun control just doesn't work. Sighting Romans previous post on Washington DC over the past 10 years. Or even Mexico with gun laws so strict only the military/police, oh and thousands upon thousands of murdering organized crime thugs backed by billions of dollars, have guns. Criminals generally don't care about laws, if they did, they wouldn't be very proficient criminals. If someone is ass over teakettle set on a mission they will find the guns, or substitute any number of other weapons, explosives, or fcuking chainsaws and fire axes.

 

The secret service is very aware how difficult it is to stop someone willing to die. They counter this with training, Intel, some safety measures, and the odds change because they have 20 guys who are also willing to die to stop one.

I do not see the point of owning an assault riffle, they are not good for hunting, and not good for defense, the only use for these weapons is to attack someone. so I would support a ban on these guns.

 

Assault rifles (rifles with machine gun capability) are already banned, unless made pre-1986, and to own one you have to go through things like getting permission from your local police, fingerprinting, background check, there's a minimum I think seven month waiting period, etc...and there can be more regulations depending on the state and/or local government. Many people confuse various semi-automatic rifles that look like assault rifles with being assault rifles, but they are not. All guns made in the U.S. have to be made where you cannot easily modify them to be automatic fire weapons and any gun that can be easily modified as such is considered as an automatic fire weapon under the law.