Volkswagen AG stock 23% down

Some people are going to jail.

 

all this rubbish will affect a lot of people and usually the smallest will suffer the hardest!

 

Why can't we all be reasonable as a collective and admit some of this compliance rubbish is that just rubbish and in most instances it's impossible to comply with, I think it will do us a world of good if we stop pretending and lying to ourselves!

This BTW applies to almost every sector of every industry out there.

 

If a multibillion dollar corporation had to resort to cheating to comply how will the small guy do it?

 

 

all this rubbish will affect a lot of people and usually the smallest will suffer the hardest!

 

Why can't we all be reasonable as a collective and admit some of this compliance rubbish is that just rubbish and in most instances it's impossible to comply with, I think it will do us a world of good if we stop pretending and lying to ourselves!

This BTW applies to almost every sector of every industry out there.

 

If a multibillion dollar corporation had to resort to cheating to comply how will the small guy do it?

I agree. I dont think this is the end of it at VW. If VW cant comply and has to resort to cheating there has got to be other companies. I've been reading some. And the biggest thing about this is that the EPA unfairly mandates diesel cars, While diesel trucks/SUVs dont have the same mandates. Europe has proven diesels can be good options, yet the US has been slow to adopting diesel cars. I guess we all know why now.

 

I really see all sides of this situation.

 

Some bloggers are thinking VW might just pull out of the US markets over this. I dont think that will happen. But if they did, would that mean all VW companies would too? Meaning our favorite brand?

all this rubbish will affect a lot of people and usually the smallest will suffer the hardest!

 

Why can't we all be reasonable as a collective and admit some of this compliance rubbish is that just rubbish and in most instances it's impossible to comply with, I think it will do us a world of good if we stop pretending and lying to ourselves!

This BTW applies to almost every sector of every industry out there.

 

If a multibillion dollar corporation had to resort to cheating to comply how will the small guy do it?

 

Very well said. I'm in the construction industry and own lots of heavy equipment and the regulations on diesel emissions, even for off the road vehicles and equipment is a convoluted mess and very hard to keep up with. There was a particular project I worked on where I had to retrofit my equipment with particulate filters and oxidation catalysts. In some cases, the cost of a retrofit exceeded the book value of the equipment. Then the filters and such would clog and damage the engines. On this particular project, even modern OEM standard equipment did not qualify for an exemption. Some of the rules and standards are over the top and arbitrary and almost force you to find a way past it. The best part is that I have data that shows that the equipment from 15-20 years has less fuel consumption than the modern equipment with all these emissions controls. So, while the exhaust may be cleaner, we are burning more fuel to compensate for the reduction in performance, using up more of a limited resource.

 

 

Why can't we all be reasonable as a collective and admit some of this compliance rubbish is that just rubbish and in most instances it's impossible to comply with, I think it will do us a world of good if we stop pretending and lying to ourselves!

 

This BTW applies to almost every sector of every industry out there.

 

A world of good if we stop pretending and lying to ourselves? We pretended and lied to ourselves for a quarter of a century before we finally acknowledged that not regulating emissions is causing serious problems. Now, my neighborhood and a good portion of the west side of South Beach has bay water coming up over the sea wall and into the streets during king tides and its only getting worse. I can't speak for others, but I have watched it happen first hand. If other manufacturers were able to meet the compliance requirements than there is no reason VW shouldn't have been able to.

 

 

 

Global warming is on par with religion for me, I hate discussing them, if you believe that VAG's Diesel engines have a hand in increasing the tides where you live there is nothing I can say to change your mind, you have the right to think that way.

I believe that majority of it is BS and certain changes in nature would occur irrespective of our "help".

 

Going green is great, I am not against it but it's a quick way for many to make a buck, when compliance is met, the tap runs dry, new rules are implemented in order to force a more stringent compliance so the tap starts running again, the vicious cycle continues to the point where the rules are absolutely bonkers and almost impossible to comply with without changing the laws of physics.

 

I will give you a quick example at how versed the greenies are at milking dollars, I am doing a large industrial development at the moment, by law we are meant to capture every drop of rain water which falls on any sealed area of the development, roof area, pavement etc. we have to capture and filter it via a very expensive and intricate filtering system which requires me to spend a tone of dollars to build and maintain forever.

 

They got together and calculated how much it would actually cost me, in this instance, to build such system and what would my yearly ongoing cost be and came to me with a proposal, you can pay us X amount of dollars as a one of fee, you don't have to build the filtration system, you don't have to incur the cost of maintaining it every year, so they put their hand out for $150k and change.

 

So if I give them this money the pollution magically disappears? If it doesn't they are just criminals and if they aren't criminals maybe there wasn't a problem to begin with.

 

For me it's a commercial decision, I pay them they go away and I never have to deal with them ever again, easy done!

 

I am not disputing the necessity of being responsible here, the only thing I am saying that there is more than it meets the eye.

Could not agree more with Fortis. Temps rise and fall throughout the history of the earth. Things that are land now were once sea. Does that mean the dinosaurs were burning coal at alarming rates and racing riced out diesel jettas polluting the world? no...it doesn't. his example is the exact issue with all this.

 

 

Global warming is on par with religion for me, I hate discussing them, if you believe that VAG's Diesel engines have a hand in increasing the tides where you live there is nothing I can say to change your mind, you have the right to think that way.

I believe that majority of it is BS and certain changes in nature would occur irrespective of our "help".

 

Obviously, the VW incident has not made any meaningful contribution to to global warming, but it is the attitude that pollution over decades is harmless that has caused the problems. When I was living in TX I was in the same boat and assumed it was a bunch of hippie rhetoric and profiteers out to cash in on fear mongering (yes, quite a bit of the latter does happen, but greed and questionable business is rampant on all ends of the spectrum). Now I'm in Miami and, literally, live about 100 feet away from what National Geographic referred to as 'ground zero' for areas impacted by sea rise.

 

The picture below was taken when there hadn't been rain in days. This did not happen 10 years ago. I don't see how you can ignore this:

 

 

Fortunately, the city began taking steps to get ahead of the problem about 18 months ago... raising the western most streets 4 feet and upgrading the pump systems to keep the bay from coming up through the wastewater disposal system. Sure, nothing is going to change over night, but a few more decades of ignoring the signs could be disastrous. In my opinion, this is the canary in the coal mine and people need to pull their head out of the sand and realize this is happening NOW. We should be doing everything in our power to curb and mitigate the impact.

 

Anyhow, I'll get off my soap box. Like you said, no opinions are going to be changed here, but I wanted to share my first hand account. Your example does sound like a shake down and it is a shame that things like that happen because it will leave a sour taste in people's mouths and sway their opinion on the big picture.

Obviously, the VW incident has not made any meaningful contribution to to global warming, but it is the attitude that pollution over decades is harmless that has caused the problems. When I was living in TX I was in the same boat and assumed it was a bunch of hippie rhetoric and profiteers out to cash in on fear mongering (yes, quite a bit of the latter does happen, but greed and questionable business is rampant on all ends of the spectrum). Now I'm in Miami and, literally, live about 100 feet away from what National Geographic referred to as 'ground zero' for areas impacted by sea rise.

 

The picture below was taken when there hadn't been rain in days. This did not happen 10 years ago. I don't see how you can ignore this:

 

 

Fortunately, the city began taking steps to get ahead of the problem about 18 months ago... raising the western most streets 4 feet and upgrading the pump systems to keep the bay water from coming up through the wastewater disposal system. Sure, nothing is going to change over night, but a few more decades of ignoring the signs could be disastrous. In my opinion, this is the canary in the coal mine and people need to pull their head out of the sand and realize this is happening NOW. Anyhow, I'll get off my soap box. Like you said, no opinions are going to be changed here, but I wanted to share my first hand account.

 

You do realize the earth has been going through warming and cooling trends for BILLIONS of years. And that CO2 content in the atmosphere (even though slightly higher in recent times) has been many multiples of times higher on it's very own, with zero human interference?

 

And you know plant growth accelerates during these times to help control the levels?

 

I'm all for keeping pollution to a reasonable minimum, but the the changes are wildly skewed to tug the heart strings of people who don't know how to read a graph. Adding 100ppm of something is less than the equivalent of adding a thimble of water to a swimming pool. In recent times it's gone from 280ppm to 400.. Wow thats a lot. Except that in the history of the earth (back to the dinosaur days) it's been as high as 8,000.

 

This is 99% political bullshit to manipulate people who don't understand the first thing about it. If we had never entered the industrial revolution, the water would still be at that level in Miami.

 

And truthfully, automotive emissions is pissing on a smoldering cigarette when the building is on fire, in the grand scheme of global pollution. Ignore the fact that 5 container ships pollute more than ALL the cars in the US combined. Or that China pollutes more in one day than the entire US over the course of a calendar year.

 

Note: I am generalizing some parts of "pollution" in reference to China. Some is nasty brown smog, others are far more dangerous that are actually colorless/odorless/and tasteless.

 

As Fortis so eloquently stated. People are all entitled to their opinions, but if you aren't an engineer or scientist, you will have an extremely difficult time grasping what this all really means. (and even many of them dream up their own conclusions)

 

Oh boy.

 

The car owners and dealers need to be satisfied as well as the EPA.

 

The oil industry went thru this in NOLA - they clean it up pay out some cash and move on.

 

No one is going out of business - GM hid an ignition issue that killed 124 people.

 

VW didn't kill anyone - they bypassed a test BFD.

 

AG will pay for that issue- there is not a person here or company that I know of that doesn't cheat or could do a better job conserving which is no different than cheating.

IMO Volkswagen will come out of this and rebrand etc.. (like audi did many years ago)

Im just hoping in the mean time Lamborghini R&D is not affected by this..

IMO Volkswagen will come out of this and rebrand etc.. (like audi did many years ago)

Im just hoping in the mean time Lamborghini R&D is not affected by this..

 

Lamborghini R&D will begin building diesel SV's in 2016 just to prove a point.

 

Anyway there will be a new CEO who will blame it on the "ole boys club" and all will be fine -d.

 

No one wants to kill a company when there is a perfectly good suit with a target on their back.

 

 

Obviously, the VW incident has not made any meaningful contribution to to global warming, but it is the attitude that pollution over decades is harmless that has caused the problems. When I was living in TX I was in the same boat and assumed it was a bunch of hippie rhetoric and profiteers out to cash in on fear mongering (yes, quite a bit of the latter does happen, but greed and questionable business is rampant on all ends of the spectrum). Now I'm in Miami and, literally, live about 100 feet away from what National Geographic referred to as 'ground zero' for areas impacted by sea rise.

 

The picture below was taken when there hadn't been rain in days. This did not happen 10 years ago. I don't see how you can ignore this:

 

 

Fortunately, the city began taking steps to get ahead of the problem about 18 months ago... raising the western most streets 4 feet and upgrading the pump systems to keep the bay from coming up through the wastewater disposal system. Sure, nothing is going to change over night, but a few more decades of ignoring the signs could be disastrous. In my opinion, this is the canary in the coal mine and people need to pull their head out of the sand and realize this is happening NOW. We should be doing everything in our power to curb and mitigate the impact.

 

Anyhow, I'll get off my soap box. Like you said, no opinions are going to be changed here, but I wanted to share my first hand account. Your example does sound like a shake down and it is a shame that things like that happen because it will leave a sour taste in people's mouths and sway their opinion on the big picture.

 

Silly question - if you don't see how people can ignore this why did you - by moving there?

 

The best thing that ever happened to Miami was Hurricane Andrew that was later called Saint Andrew for a very good reason.

 

 

http://www.theicct.org/real-world-exhaust-...ern-diesel-cars

 

Real-world exhaust emissions from modern diesel cars

 

This study analyzed the on-road emissions performance of fifteen new diesel passenger cars, twelve certified to the Euro 6 standard and three to the US equivalent (Tier 2 Bin 5), using portable emissions measurement systems (PEMS), which provide a continuous stream of vehicle data signals including emission rates, velocity, acceleration, road gradient and exhaust temperature.

 

Highlights of the results

 

On average, real-world NOx emissions from the tested vehicles were about seven times higher than the limits set by the Euro 6 standard. If applied to the entire new vehicle fleet, this would correspond to an on-road level of about 560 mg/km of NOx (compared to the regulatory limit under Euro 6 of 80 mg/km). This is compelling evidence of a real-world NOx compliance issue for recent-technology diesel passenger cars, for both the EU and US test vehicles.

 

I don't think VW is alone in this, they might have fitted a defeat device or whatever but, others might be in the same boat. Real world emissions is what actually should matter not the lab tests.

 

I'm afraid Fortis was spot on with the rules and regulations in regards to emissions, standards keep getting more and more absurd, and manufacturers might not have any other way to comply short of changing the laws of physics.

 

The new standards set by the EU for 2020 is a fleet average of 80 grams of CO2/km. I don't know how mainstream manufacturers will be able to hit that target, seeing as the average is now twice that, in lab tests, mind you.

 

Lamborghini for example has applied for exemptions, because it is a sub 10k car builder per year, and they are able to get a pass.

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/bmw-shares-fal...erns-1443090088

BMW AG shares fell more than 8% early Thursday, after magazine Auto Bild reported one of the German car maker’s model’s emissions on the street were much higher than allowed in Europe under standardized testing conditions.

 

Auto Bild, a German-based automotive publication, said Thursday in a pre-release of an article to be published later this week that BMW’s X3 xDrive 20d sports utility vehicle, powered by a diesel engine, emitted more than 11 times more nitrogen oxide than permitted by the European Union under standardized conditions. The magazine said the results came through a street test conducted by the International Council on Clean Transportation, a nonprofit research organization.

all this rubbish will affect a lot of people and usually the smallest will suffer the hardest!

 

Why can't we all be reasonable as a collective and admit some of this compliance rubbish is that just rubbish and in most instances it's impossible to comply with, I think it will do us a world of good if we stop pretending and lying to ourselves!

This BTW applies to almost every sector of every industry out there.

 

If a multibillion dollar corporation had to resort to cheating to comply how will the small guy do it?

THIS Exactly!

 

And sorry about the strong language which will follow.

 

 

This CO2 thing smells ass, the odour is very strong.

 

Yes VW baboons got caught of unlawful manners but, nobody is interested in why?

 

Hey maybe making cars that will go through green hippy cumgoblers sieve is next to impossible and they did their best and then some.

fcuk the hippies..

Only real reason why there is superficial amount of CO tax is that every nation wants a shitload of extra free cash from car buyers.

 

And then there is the second part:

USA does way too much bullshit moves on international scale these days...

They just decided to cash out when they have run out of money and give a bit wind to american car sales.

GM, Ford, Mopar etc: How about actually making products that sell by them self?

 

I understand WV need to get some sanctions and change their ways, but...

 

If there are punishments to ordinary car salesman and other people who had no f*king clue. It is morally very wrong.

 

 

 

 

Silly question - if you don't see how people can ignore this why did you - by moving there?

 

The best thing that ever happened to Miami was Hurricane Andrew that was later called Saint Andrew for a very good reason.

 

Its my hometown.

Its my hometown.

 

 

Question was and apologize for not being specific why 100 feet from ground zero.

 

Point is you know the risks as did the ivory tower of VW - they and you know there is a cost associated with a risk it's not if it's when and does the known pain make the gain worthwhile.

 

As I posted earlier everyone cheats so fire some suits clean up the Ivory tower and issue some checks - really can't understand what the big deal is when you look at the fact no one died and aren't there enough people in jail that drain the economy. The cowboy days are over I am sure there are better ways to punish someone vs jail over an emissions violation.

Question was and apologize for not being specific why 100 feet from ground zero.

 

Point is you know the risks as did the ivory tower of VW - they and you know there is a cost associated with a risk it's not if it's when and does the known pain make the gain worthwhile.

 

I'm 31 and single so South Beach isn't a bad place to live. I can tolerate a few inches of salt water on the street one week out of the year in exchange for the benefits. Regardless, I put my place on the market about two weeks ago so I'm out of here one way or another (for reasons unrelated to the flooding).

I'm 31 and single so South Beach isn't a bad place to live. I can tolerate a few inches of salt water on the street one week out of the year in exchange for the benefits. Regardless, I put my place on the market about two weeks ago so I'm out of here one way or another (for reasons unrelated to the flooding).

 

GLWS and agree SB isn't a bad place especially at your age - wife is from that area and have a building on Lincoln Road.

 

As far as a few inches - my bet is VW will rise even faster

GLWS and agree SB isn't a bad place especially at your age - wife is from that area and have a building on Lincoln Road.

 

Wow! Great asset you have there. Lincoln Road Real Estate is out of control. I'm sure you know this, but sales are closing over $6,000 psf and rents approaching $400 psf. From a local's perspective, it ain't what it used to be, but it sure has been good to investors.

Wow! Great asset you have there. Lincoln Road Real Estate is out of control. I'm sure you know this, but sales are closing over $6,000 psf and rents approaching $400 psf. From a local's perspective, it ain't what it used to be, but it sure has been good to investors.

 

Wife's group not I - spirit only.

 

The converted theater ... turned out beautiful.

My understanding is that scientists are pretty much 100% sure that the climate is warming and that the warming is being caused by human-released greenhouse gas emissions in the atmosphere, but that's the limit of where the scientists are so sure. The claims that the warming will be disastrous, as many claim, no one can be sure of, because those claims are based off of computer models which can be highly inaccurate. However, a concern is that in the past, there have been rather sudden changes in the climate that wreaked havoc with the biosphere and what many are concerned about is that global warming could inadvertently do something similar (i.e. cause a sudden climate change).

 

The problem is that what is a legitimate scientific concern and not absurd on its face has been turned into a religion practically by many proponents who act like if we don't allow the government to regulate and micromanage our lives and restrict freedoms severely, that the Earth will end very soon. In seeing so much of this, many people just are turned off from the whole movement and regard the whole thing as crackpot hysteria that is about implementing socialism.

 

A world of good if we stop pretending and lying to ourselves? We pretended and lied to ourselves for a quarter of a century before we finally acknowledged that not regulating emissions is causing serious problems. Now, my neighborhood and a good portion of the west side of South Beach has bay water coming up over the sea wall and into the streets during king tides and its only getting worse. I can't speak for others, but I have watched it happen first hand. If other manufacturers were able to meet the compliance requirements than there is no reason VW shouldn't have been able to.

 

In terms of diesel emissions and pollution, taking steps that can be met to reduce pollution is fine. But creating regulations that are not really possible to meet is not fine and only hamstrings the economy. In addition, unless/until we get the likes of China, India, etc...onboard, these automotive regulations aren't going to do squat.

Anybody know how to retrofit this technology onto existing cars for all the poor fuckers still in california?

This is hilarious. People fighting over emissions from cars which IMO are some of the cleanest diesels while there's much worse pollution being generated unchecked. I own ships that burn 8 to 10 tons of bunker C per day with zero emissions testing or controls. I wonder how many of these evil tdi's it would take to equal the pollution one of my ships generate in one hour?

This is hilarious. People fighting over emissions from cars which IMO are some of the cleanest diesels while there's much worse pollution being generated unchecked. I own ships that burn 8 to 10 tons of bunker C per day with zero emissions testing or controls. I wonder how many of these evil tdi's it would take to equal the pollution one of my ships generate in one hour?

 

I'm not a rocket scientist, but if they had ~11mm cars on the road spitting out 40x the 'legal' emissions, wouldn't this be equivalent to the pollution from 440mm cars on the road operating at the regulated levels? That feels material to me.