Flight 9525

If this guy was depressed I wonder what kind of meds.

he was taking???......maybe he had a psychotic reaction

To taking ....or even Not taking his medication.

.

unbelievable. I just don't understand how another human being can be so cruel.

RIP to everyone who didn't make it

unbelievable. I just don't understand how another human being can be so cruel.

RIP to everyone who didn't make it

 

 

It is totally insane. Plus now there is one more thing to have to worry about.

 

RIP to all the poor souls and bless their families

 

It is totally insane. Plus now there is one more thing to have to worry about.

 

RIP to all the poor souls and bless their families

another reason why its frightening to travel to unknown parts of the world.

I had no idea the requirements were different.

Articles are saying he has 630 flying hours. I don't know crap about flying, but that sounds extremely low to be flying a commercial plane to me.

I wasn't shocked to read that number. I'll go ahead and make some sweeping generalizations because I'm pretty confident and I'm an asshole. The rest of the world is usually behind US pilots in experience for several reasons.

 

Many foreign airlines will buy fewer, higher performance aircraft, and man them with a smaller workforce of whomever comes up through their smaller populations. The diversity in platforms isn't as wide as in the US where we have all these layers of commuter, cargo, recreational, experimental, and executive transport flying either. Thus, they are more likely to have younger people at the controls of bigger airplanes sooner because there's no "middle class." The larger the talent pool, the more competitive it gets and the US is an ocean of talent compared with, say, Belgium or Greece. It's the big school/little school principle where a guy graduating 1 of 20 in a small town is thrust onto the same playing field as the guy graduating 3 of 300 in a big city. The small town guy might still be competitive, but what are the probabilities?

 

In the US, military-background aviators fly more hours earlier in their careers across varied mission sets compared to guys coming up through civilian pipelines. Civilian pipeline guys typically pay their dues at lower wages on smaller platforms to build time for several years in order to make money in the airlines in the long run. This 600hr guy doesn't really fit into either one of those typically-American models due to the type of airplane he's [not] flying. Only when the sine wave of airline industry hiring reaches its lowest points, do low-time guys start getting hired in the US, but there are still minimums that are higher. Otherwise, it can be pretty competitive. Either way, the US has a very active military force as well as a general aviation culture that is truly massive compared to the rest of the world. General aviation flatly does not exist in many countries, is purely a rich man's sport in some, or is highly localized in others for the pure utility of flying vs. recreation. Here, it's practically on par with gun culture -- too engrained into the scene to imagine it differently. The military becomes the only way to get involved in flying in many countries and even that might not amount to much.

 

As such, most foreign military-background aviators might not fly as much as their American counterparts. This is a function of funding, operational tempo, force structure, and political commitments (this is also a reason why American air power tends to steamroll our adversaries). I know several foreign air carriers, even middle eastern carriers, that actively recruit American and British pilots rather than hire from their native lands because they simply can't find comparable skills and experience.

 

The fact that this guy has 600 hours (no military experience I presume) is also telling in that it's really not hard to rack up that kind of time flying heavies, and I honestly don't put much faith in testing that kind of dude with extreme danger. The 48 year old with 15,000 hours flying 767's out of Malaysia all his life is not the same animal as a 48 year old 3000hr Hornet guy in the US Navy. Sure, this guy could have been basically qualified but crazy as a loon, and is more likely to be weeded out sooner in further-western culture (and there's always someone waiting to take that seat). It wouldn't be the first time a pilot has committed suicide/murder from any nationality, but western culture is typically better than most for aviation as a vocation because it tends to be more honest in its ability weed out problems and promote solid aviating rather than what we see across the spectrum of face-saving and favoritism that becomes increasingly dense with other cultures. I'm not saying it's a race thing either -- it's purely a culture thing that can have this impact on such a unique profession and I plainly don't have as much faith in other-than-US/UK/AUS sources for pilots because I have seen the rest of the world work and it's fuckin' scary. Every human can fk up no matter what their background, but it's a matter of probability and every single factor is on the table because it's life-and-death-serious.

That is fcuking terrifying ^

That, and some airlines have flight attendants that bathe regularly whereas some do not. The horror is everywhere.

ill stay in the U.S. for now.. this is crazy

Although there are worse things to worry about. For instance, I'd be more worried about the maintenance on a Russian airplane than the experience of its crew, lol.

Although there are worse things to worry about. For instance, I'd be more worried about the maintenance on a Russian airplane than the experience of its crew, lol.

How about maintenance on a European or Middle Eastern airline?

Those are the only sweeping generalizations I was going to make, haha. I have no reason to believe maintenance is typically better or worse anywhere else. There are horror stories in every maintenance setting around the world including ours, but Russian aircraft have a decades-long tradition of horrendous quality control and primitive methods for design, construction, and maintenance. The upside to that is that if the airplanes are death traps, the pilots might learn to be that much better to keep themselves alive. There are still plenty of individuals flying commercially that are perfectly competent from plenty of other countries, but I'll abandon the PC pleasantries like a bad habit if I see unsafe buffoonery in the air.

I guess I'm a real asshole... Because I think folks who have severe mental illness, to the point they have to be institutionalized, probably shouldn't be flying planes full of other people.

 

I know I may be crushing dreams and all, but, go find a new career. Like accounting. Or CEO of a company... Pretty much any job where you don't LITERALLY have hundreds of other people's lives in your hands...

 

 

 

 

 

I think it is time to implement surveillance cameras inside the cockpit & cabin monitoring everything, even outside the plane on the tail monitoring down. I think Emirates has that currently.

I think it is time to implement surveillance cameras inside the cockpit & cabin monitoring everything, even outside the plane on the tail monitoring down. I think Emirates has that currently.

 

I'm confused... what would that do? Like so if the plane is doing something crazy, like on a trajectory which plants it into a trillion tons of granite, someone could open the feed, and then take control of the plane remotely?

 

I don't have a lot of faith that would happen inside of the 8 minutes it took to yard sale this one.

 

I'm with RD, and have no issue limiting the people we allow to fly $50m missiles with dozens of people on board.

Unfortunately there will be a lot more lives sacrificed for the sake of political correctness and participation trophies, nobody gets left behind, everyone's a winner attitude, not everyone's a God damn winner, the world is full of deadbeats who don't want to be helped, idiots, dumbasses, degenerates, imbeciles, mentally ill individuals and so on but until you can call a spade a spade without risking your job or being publicly stoned to death for being insensitive this shit will continue to happen.

 

Based on most of the articles I am reading it seems that everyone knew this moron was a deranged nutcase but nobody stepped in to stop him, don't be insensitive, don't call the crazy out just hand him the controls of a bomb on wheels loaded with 150 innocents he will know what to do with it How can intelligent individuals turn a blind eye to this fact and allow innocents to pay with their lives for it?

 

If only the world would be run on the same principles as LP!

The issue here is mentally ill people operating equipment that they should not be. They need to be found and treated. It should be under the responsibility of the company to quarantine these individuals. A person may have passed a test previously but not always can pass it currently. Look at all the old people driving, some of them should NOT be driving yet they still do.

I'm confused... what would that do? Like so if the plane is doing something crazy, like on a trajectory which plants it into a trillion tons of granite, someone could open the feed, and then take control of the plane remotely?

 

I don't have a lot of faith that would happen inside of the 8 minutes it took to yard sale this one.

 

I'm with RD, and have no issue limiting the people we allow to fly $50m missiles with dozens of people on board.

 

It could be more evidence to get rid of assumptions. Obviously auto-pilot isn't very auto when it doesn't know its going to crash yet it still does what it's programmed to do. There could be a system that could kick in in case of an emergency.

This might also be insensitive, but why are we so wrapped around the axle with trying to save crazy people, or even allow them to function within normalized society? We can't possibly hide all the dangerous instruments that end up being used to "go postal." Why do we allow insanity as a defense? Why do we put so much value on human life such that every flippin' weirdo has the right to live at the expense of countless other people? Shouldn't we be more concerned with keeping the pool clean and keeping society functioning efficiently? I realize that in ancient times societies would rid themselves of the burden by chaining insane people to walls in confinement or killing them outright, but honestly, isn't there a balance to be had here?

 

I'd like to think that we could develop systems that prevent crazy from breaking loose in the cockpit (I'm sure we'll try), but the more I think about it, the more we do, the more we limit the perfectly sane among us. To save us from the 0.6% of the population, we'll end up taking so much control away from regular people that they will cease to function normally and become utterly dependent on systems to save them from themselves...incapable of making independent decisions and, in essence, incapable of being human. In the case of aviation, I'm sure that commercial flight could very well end up as a remotely controlled/optionally piloted affair in the distant future, but what's next? Are we going to have pheromone sensors, alarms, and nano-brain scanners attached to guns to determine if a fuckin' fruitcake is holding one? What are we going to do about cars, trains, construction equipment, nuclear power plants, power tools, etc. etc.? Whatever we do, crazy is going to find a way around it because it's the fox guarding the hen house principle. I tend to think the solution is in plugging the crazy hole first. But if history is any indication, we'll just keep plugging away at stop-gaps. It's ultimately unhealthy and impractical to just fill the world with pillows, expecting that humanity will simply exist without hurting itself.

It's ultimately unhealthy and impractical to just fill the world with pillows, expecting humanity to bounce off of everything to keep from hurting itself.

 

This is spot on.

 

 

But of course I grew up when pool fences and bicycle helmets were unheard of. I was spanked when I did really bad stuff. Other people made fun of things that should be made fun of. I listened intently and orderly to the man with a badge and a gun. The list goes on and on.

 

Oddly enough, with all that stacked against me, I turned out ok.

This might also be insensitive, but why are we so wrapped around the axle with trying to save crazy people, or even allow them to function within normalized society? We can't possibly hide all the dangerous instruments that end up being used to "go postal." Why do we allow insanity as a defense? Why do we put so much value on human life such that every flippin' weirdo has the right to live at the expense of countless other people? Shouldn't we be more concerned with keeping the pool clean and keeping society functioning efficiently? I realize that in ancient times societies would rid themselves of the burden by chaining insane people to walls in confinement or killing them outright, but honestly, isn't there a balance to be had here?

 

Wow that throws the ideologia back to early 1900 aka eugenics. Imho, we are better than that, we are all worth the same and we can help most.

Imho there is not lesson to learn other than those safety protocols and safety measures are already too tight.

If there was 80's plane door on place instead they would have been able to kick it in and save everyone.

 

 

 

Wow that throws the ideologia back to early 1900 aka eugenics. Imho, we are better than that, we are all worth the same and we can help most.

Imho there is not lesson to learn other than those safety protocols and safety measures are already too tight.

If there was 80's plane door on place instead they would have been able to kick it in and save everyone.

 

And if there was a 2015 plane door on 9/11/01 they wouldn't have been able to gain access. Double edge sword, and I think there is a less likely chance of a suicidal pilot than there is of a form of hijacking (I can only think of two suicidal pilot cases: this one and EgyptAir 990).

Im probably gonna open a can of worms here but here goes.

 

This argument comes back to the same exact style as gun control (stay with me here). One person goes crazy and does the unthinkable and kills alot of people and clearly is not right in the head and people are going on and on about how we need to make the tool they used to create these atrocities "safer" rather than putting the blame where it truly belongs, on the person that did them. By putting cameras in the cockpit it does nothing to prevent this from happening in the future. If someone really wants to do it they will find a way. All the cameras are going to do is allow the people investigating to draw their conclusions as to what happened a little easier not stop it from happening. Bad things happen sometimes, does that mean we just go "meh shit happens" no of course that's not what I'm saying but what i am saying is why dont we have to look at what the real problem, the acceptance that evil/insane people are not the problem but the tool they use is.

Wow that throws the ideologia back to early 1900 aka eugenics. Imho, we are better than that, we are all worth the same and we can help most.

Imho there is not lesson to learn other than those safety protocols and safety measures are already too tight.

If there was 80's plane door on place instead they would have been able to kick it in and save everyone.

Which is why I was saying we need to find some balance. We can chain people to walls (where we were) or we can put them in therapy until it kills us (where we are now). There's an ethic in all of this that we will continue to chase, be it utilitarian to rid ourselves of the problem or deontological to assert everyone's right to be here. The answer likely being in the middle.

i didnt read this thread, however i know some about German Wings

 

 

I have flown on German wings about 30-35 legs in the past 8 years in Germany. Their jets are in very good condition. The funny thing is back in 07 the first time i flew on them, they had knocked off Southwest's biz model-i mean everything, including the bad colors. Since then they have grown added more airports and dosent feel like SW as much anymore.

 

 

 

I'd get in one of their jets today if I was in Europe-I think this was a isolated unfortunate incident.

 

 

Seems to me about 8-10 years ago there was another crash like this where the pilot smashed the jet while the co-pilot was taking a piss or something.

 

 

on another note:

 

 

the scariest airline i ever flew in was Air Zimbabwe, they just painted over the logo from the previous airline and stuck Air Zim stickers on the jets. For a while they were all grounded cause Zim had no fuel back in 03-04.