2013 SRT Viper - Main Thread

Since when can't RWD compete with AWD? Isn't the 12C faster than just about every AWD car available in almost every respect?

Since when can't RWD compete with AWD? Isn't the 12C faster than just about every AWD car available in almost every respect?

 

That's a good example as the massive technology in the 12C clearly illustrates the divide versus that level of car and the Viper. I use AWD as the easy illustration, but really it's a variety of different tech/platform variables that are in play that the Viper simply doesn't offer and won't be able to compete with.

 

It is what it is, this isn't a Viper diss, far from it. I think the car is going to do well in all the ways that matter (sales, performance, etc). But those thinking this is some sort of bargain hypercar will likely wind up frustrated when all the numbers arrive.

Nice, there we go then, that likely provided the blueprint for SRT planners to kill any need for an auto in the Viper, DCT or not.

 

Whether that's the right decision or not is left to be seen, but obviously it would have helped the new car's published lap times considerably if they had a low-ms auto option, especially at the Ring where god knows how many total shifts occur throughout a single run.

 

An obvious example of that specific technology helping to artificially lower a car's times is the aforementioned Nissan GTR, which if equppied with just a manual transmission instead of its own DCT would have put up numbers much higher across the board in every test ever done on the car.

 

The problem is the ZR1 is not what the new Viper is trying to compete with. The ZR1 fully loaded (including standard CCB's) is under 120k, and has not flown off the lot by any means at that price--many have been bought brand new in the 100-105k range. Dodge *could* have tried to stay in the same general niche with the ZR1, but instead they have consciously tried to go upmarket, with a supposedly much nicer interior and a 10-20k bump up in price from the uber-v e t t e. They are trying to attract people who might otherwise buy the more expensive Audi/Porsche/Lambo offerings (their words not mine), and that's why I think the tranny issue is so important. If they were selling the car at 100k it wouldn't be as much of an issue, but they're not.

I really hope the vipers interior is as good as its being said it is..

No, it's an accurate representation of my opinion, no contradiction at all that I can see.

 

I'm saying that the new Viper won't be dominating anything, because the AWD platforms are just too difficult to compete against with all of the electronic wizardry that's prevalent. The ACR was an exception, particularly with most of the times it recorded having been done on very non-stock semi-slicks. Still a great car though, no doubt, but the new Viper isn't going to touch it, and nor was it designed to, that's my point really.

 

There's a reason why the Nissan GTR can do what it does despite only having 545hp and weighing 4000+ pounds on a scale. And that reason is a lethal combination of AWD + sophisticated support electronic support, which allows the car to rise above the typical power/weight/grip limits for those numbers.

 

If Viper loyalists are really thinking that this is some sort of rebirth of the track time dominance the car had years ago...and more...you are in for a massive disappointment. The world has moved on, and Fiat knows that volume sales will only come from the car being a "jack of all trades" instead of a track knife.

 

If on the other hand you're expecting a good overall performer that's fun, has more creature comforts and electronic help than the previous gen, is more livable in general, and has a look that's far more exotic than say a vanilla POS, then you're going to be very very happy.

 

I see. It's your opinion. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I did however offer my educated opinion based on real life facts. Track times around the world bone stock does not seem to back up your opinion. Quite the contrary. It really doesn't matter what tech is used. On a track the lap times count even if you want to discount them. But I respect your right to have your own opinion however you came to it.

 

Just to add you said the new Viper wont be able to dominate because the new AWD platforms are too difficult to compete against. Yet Ive shown you thread after thread of the OLD Viper dominating the very same "new AWD platforms" on many tracks, bone stock. Why then do you think the new Viper will not also be competitive and possibly dominant[ACR]. I know you know that new models tend to be faster than the older models. I just don't understand how you arrived at your position. It certainly isn't based on real life track results.

 

Also I notice you harped on the fact the Viper comes from the factory with sport cups. Its a streetlegal DOT tire that the ZR1, Plastic mess-06, Porsche GT2 RS all did the Ring with but no one discounts their times because of it. If the "new AWD competition" is just too much and too advanced for the Viper or any RWD platform then the use of the Sport Cups should not defeat the hyper-techno-wizards like the GTR etc. Yet just old fashioned Aero and sticky tires did just that in case of the Viper. By a large amount too. None of the new AWD tech cars have come within 10 secs of the ACR with its "cheating" tires on the Ring. They didnt beat the ZR1, GT2 RS nor Lexus LF-A either. Also did you check out the VIR times? Its just a 4 mile track. The Viper ACR was about 4+ seconds faster around it per lap than the 12 GTR. It was almost 7 seconds faster than the 09 GTR. Even the ZR1 is faster than the GTR around VIR and the Ring. Not bad for uncompetitive RWD cars eh?

 

BTW I dont own a Viper but Ive learned to respect the heck out of it despite the lack of comparitive sophistication it brings in other departments. Performancewise, which is what we are talking about mainly, it has always brought it to the competition regardless of platform. The last ACR especially shows what a no frills, properly setup RWD platform can accomplish. Look what the ACR was doing to the AWD competition in the Targa Newfoundland race BEFORE the bad weather came.

 

Also the car is still low Volume niche car so it doestnt have to be a jack of all trades like a GTR etc. As long as there is a market for cars like GT2/GT3 etc there will be a market for a more affordable version like the Viper imho. Will it sell to the wine and cheese crowd like they want it to? That remains to be seen. Especially if the car looks anything like that Launch Edition blue/white with large panel gaps, nasty chrome wheels and SUV ride height. Thats what Im worried about. The performance will be there but man if they screw up the aesthetics it will be doomed to be nothing more than a lipstick on a pig.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/drive..._srt_viper_gts/

 

From what I have heard the GTS with the track pack (no aero mods) is quicker than the outgoing ACR.

 

 

Officially Priced at just under $100000 ($99390 including delivery charges). GTS Model at $122390 (including delivery)

 

ZR1 MSRP is $111600 according to autos.com . I think the Viper is a better buy than the ZR1 and more "exotic"

 

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/656001...ow-Corvette-ZR1

How did I miss this debate?

 

No one is choosing AWD vs. RWD because of lap times. In fact I'm having a hard time thinking most buyers choose cars in general because of that. It's something that's argued ad nauseum on car forums, but that's pretty much where it stops.

 

Pure driver preference.

 

Viper is a hell of a macho car when you think about it. I have a 997 GT2RS owning friend with a lot of track experience who feels it's a lot of car to handle.

 

The 8.4 liter V10 is a highly unique performance powertrain in the car world. I've yet to experience it and have only heard good things. I'd hope that any real car enthusiast is at the very least curious about it.

Top gear drives it and loves it!

http://www.TOPGEAR.com/uk/photos/dodge-vip...gear-2012-09-11

8400 cc really?

8400 cc really?

 

Yes, and a few of the older motors have been punched out to over 9k

 

Dodge just put a lazer guidance system on their wrecking ball approach to making HP. I love it! And can't wait to see these cars in person.

"By contrast, most of the upper body - the clamshell bonnet, the roof and the rear boot lid are now made of the black weave"

 

How much CF comes standard on a $250K Ferrari/Lamborghini/McLaren?

How did I miss this debate?

 

No one is choosing AWD vs. RWD because of lap times. In fact I'm having a hard time thinking most buyers choose cars in general because of that. It's something that's argued ad nauseum on car forums, but that's pretty much where it stops.

 

Pure driver preference.

 

Viper is a hell of a macho car when you think about it. I have a 997 GT2RS owning friend with a lot of track experience who feels it's a lot of car to handle.

 

The 8.4 liter V10 is a highly unique performance powertrain in the car world. I've yet to experience it and have only heard good things. I'd hope that any real car enthusiast is at the very least curious about it.

 

I wasn't arguing choosing a car based on its lap times. I was simply highlighting a fallacy in regard someone posting that RWD cant be competitive with the newfangled AWD systems and that specifically the Viper couldn't compete. I simply showed empirical proof that it was false based on real world lap times from bone stock examples of both RWD and AWD cars on various tracks around the world.

 

I agree with you completely on its uniqueness in the overcrowded world of hightech sports cars. The mere fact that it competes and even dominates a lot of the latest and greatest on a track is a testament that this formula is still highly effective. Why folks bash this car for being low tech, poor hp/ltr yada yada yada is laughable because of what the Viper has been doing to hightechmobiles since its inception. If its approach to speed is so inferior than it should not be kicking everyone's butt at the track. Knock it for all the other subjective aspects of its nature but you can't knock the performance and what it has accomplished against the best. For that its gets my respect period.

The early writeups this week have been great, car is off to a good start.

 

You can't really learn anything until it's driven back-to-back with its competition and the flaws highlighted in comparison tests, but so far so good, she's out of the gate well.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/drive..._srt_viper_gts/

 

From what I have heard the GTS with the track pack (no aero mods) is quicker than the outgoing ACR.

 

I wouldn't be too surprised. Ralph said they took the data collected from the Viper ACR and applied it to the new Viper. He noted that the front fascia is very similar to the ACR's fascia/front lip, and that the rear decklid was raised a few inches more than the pre-production model that was paraded around, so it will have great aerodynamics. IIRC he said the suspension was still being tuned, but that it also benefited greatly from the ACR program. Good aero, lighter, more rigid, more power, and more torque is a winning recipe.

The early writeups this week have been great, car is off to a good start.

 

You can't really learn anything until it's driven back-to-back with its competition and the flaws highlighted in comparison tests, but so far so good, she's out of the gate well.

 

OH SNAP!!!

OH SNAP!!!

 

I've never been in a Viper, when I come to the States I would like to rent one, if I had to choose between a Viper and a POS I am more of a Viper guy

I've never been in a Viper, when I come to the States I would like to rent one, if I had to choose between a Viper and a POS I am more of a Viper guy

 

How tall are you? Vipers are not height friendly at all and if it will be your only car for your time in the States it will get old fast.

How tall are you? Vipers are not height friendly at all and if it will be your only car for your time in the States it will get old fast.

 

I'm over 6'3" and fit just fine. The seat lowering kit makes it better, but I have no problem driving them for long distances totally stock. Not sure what you have been in.

 

I've never been in a Viper, when I come to the States I would like to rent one, if I had to choose between a Viper and a POS I am more of a Viper guy

You and most Americans

 

How tall are you? Vipers are not height friendly at all and if it will be your only car for your time in the States it will get old fast.

 

I will fit, I would only want to drive it for few hours just to see what all the fuss is about

You and most Americans

 

Is the Viper more popular?

I'm over 6'3" and fit just fine. The seat lowering kit makes it better, but I have no problem driving them for long distances totally stock. Not sure what you have been in.

 

I also thought my viper was incredibly comfortable. Had no problem driving it long distance. My AC sucked however, but if that had worked well I wouldn't have minded driving that all the time!