Occupy a bathtub already

Erik, the lenders were telling the brokers what needed to be on the loan apps, the brokers jobs from 04 through 08 was simply to find people with pulses to sign up. Lenders reps were telling the mortgage brokers what they needed put on the applications, this mess wasn't fueled from the borrower up but instead from the banks down. The correspondent lenders only cared about how fast they could bundle up loans to send up to the banks. The banks knew exactly what they were doing.

 

 

Come on for christ's sake.... No bank has ever FORCED anyone to take a fcuking loan or to buy a house they cant afford. Customers go to the BANK. Not the other way around. Thats the goddamned problem with this fcuking country.... Nobody takes any goddamned responsibility for themselves any more.

 

I bought three pieces of real estate during this era... I financed or refinanced probably 8 different times during all this. I'm well aware of what documentation was needed to qualify for those loans, and yet, not once did I purchase something I couldn't afford....

 

 

No banker came to me and said "Hey, Erik... Here's a house YOU cant afford... Want some money to buy it?"

 

When I wanted a loan, or wanted to refinance, I WENT TO THEM. I figured out what I CAN AFFORD, and I shopped for it.... And if I had fucked up, it would have been MY FAULT, and I would have been fucked.

 

Why is it IM CAPABLE of doing that and other people arent?

 

 

So again: NAME YOUR MAGIC LEGISLATION that will prevent this in the future.

 

People who scream that crimes were committed: Name which ones. What would you make Illegal in the future? Lending money? Lending money to people who MIGHT default? Making a bad investment?

 

It seems to me, the ONLY reason any of us has ANY skin in the game is because of the tax payer bailout- AND WE'VE BEEN PAID BACK. (and Nima, with all due respect... you're Canadian... Why exactly are you even in this thread? If you want to fcuk up a country, go fcuk-up Canada.)

 

 

 

 

 

.....If you want to fcuk up a country, go fcuk-up Canada.

 

Too late

For some reason I don't want the FDA to let Marsh sell meat that is labeled "grade A" when it's really going to kill me - and expect the consumer to "know" that the meat is bad. I personally WANT to have regulations on things like the environment, aviation, food - to keep those whose only motivation is PROFIT in check and not trying to kill us to make a buck - which, after seeing the soulless bastards from these big banks' answer that it's the "consumer's responsibility" makes me want to throw up.

 

 

For some reason I don't want the FDA to let Marsh sell meat that is labeled "grade A" when it's really going to kill me - and expect the consumer to "know" that the meat is bad. I personally WANT to have regulations on things like the environment, aviation, food - to keep those whose only motivation is PROFIT in check and not trying to kill us to make a buck - which, after seeing the soulless bastards from these big banks' answer that it's the "consumer's responsibility" makes me want to throw up.

 

Seriously... What the fcuk are you talking about?

 

Who is talking about NO regulation?

 

Stop with the Strawman arguments- You're better than that. STICK TO WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

 

 

I've already said, BANKS ARE REGULATED....They are the most regulated industries. I HAVEN'T HEARD A SINGLE RESPONSE TO THAT.

 

And again- For the third time: NAME THE REGULATION THAT WAS LACKING.

Seriously... What the fcuk are you talking about?

 

Who is talking about NO regulation?

 

Stop with the Strawman arguments- You're better than that. STICK TO WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

 

 

I've already said, BANKS ARE REGULATED....They are the most regulated industries. I HAVEN'T HEARD A SINGLE RESPONSE TO THAT.

 

And again- For the third time: NAME THE REGULATION THAT WAS LACKING.

 

I have a question.

 

You say banks are regulated.....what are the punishments that can be doled out to banks for creating financial chaos?

 

But more importantly....what punishments can be delivered to INDIVIDUALS who are responsible? It seems like companies can absorb the blow but there's no individual(s) that will personally suffer and be on the hook for the damage done.

 

I just don't know any one individual in the banking business who got personally nailed either through jail time and/or severe fines or lawsuits forcing him into bankruptcy. There are many well intentioned people in the consulting professions that through slight negligence and some bad luck are on the hook way worse than what these guys are in for.

 

Playing with other people's money should be held to an accountability standard much like that of a MD, PE, ESQ, etc. Until an individual licensee can be put on the hook, it's not the same kind of regulation. It's just human nature to act more responsibly when you have no safety net to protect you.

 

Meanwhile, now that we live in a new world, banks have all the reason in the loan to have a knee jerk reaction and make it so much harder to qualify for loans or financing. For the majority of people who were responsible and knew what they were doing, they are struggling unnecessarily.

I have a question.

 

You say banks are regulated.....what are the punishments that can be doled out to banks for creating financial chaos?

"Creating financial Chaos" is not against the law... Its a charge thats so vague as to be completely beyond the scope of the judicial system.

 

Punishments for ACTUAL CRIMES, such as securities FRAUD, EMBEZZLEMENT, MISAPPROPRIATION, Insider trading, larceny, etc can result in PRISON TIME for the people who commit them. Corporations who engage in such illegal activity or failure to abide by the various banking regulations (Proper capitalization, lack of supervision, proper reporting, etc) can get hit with GIGANTIC FINES, and even forced liquidation.

 

But more importantly....what punishments can be delivered to INDIVIDUALS who are responsible?

 

RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT? We PUNISH people for CRIMES. WHO DO YOU CHARGE COMMITTED A CRIME, and WHAT CRIME do you suggest they committed?

 

It seems like companies can absorb the blow but there's no individual(s) that will personally suffer and be on the hook for the damage done.

You want somebody "punished" because something "bad" happened. You have to be more specific than that... Businesses fail... ALL the time. Markets go up and markets go down... Recessions are part of the business cycle... You cant criminalize business management or even business mismanagement, because if you do, nobody would go into business.

 

This is a 15 trillion dollar economy that has gone into the shitter. The idea that there are a few people in a few buildings that we can point to and scream "Its all their fault" is ludicrous. If we start rounding up everybody who had a hand in this and imprisoned them, there would be nobody fcuking left. Talk like this scares the shit out of me... I know enough about history to recognize scapegoats for political gain, and to know exactly where it leads. "you made a bad loan? GULAG!" "You took a bad loan? GULAG!" "You passed a law that encouraged bad loans? GULAG!" "You bought gold, which devalued the U.S. dollar which caused oil prices to skyrocket, which caused people to drive less and have less discretionary income that lead to the economy slowing down that lead to people getting laid off, that lead to people not being able to pay their mortgages, that lead lead to defaults on mortgages, that lead to defaults in MBSs, which lead to Lehman failing, which caused investors to short financial stocks, which caused the other banks to fail, which caused a run on the banks which caused TARP to be needed? GULAG!"

 

Listen, the ULTIMATE punishment for mismanagement of this sort is BANKRUPTCY... The ultimate MARKET solution would have been to LET THE BANKS FAIL... Their investors (and Board of Directors and CEOs who have a shitload of their own wealth in the stock) go BANKRUPT. Thats typically what happens when businesses fail (Ive discussed this already with GM, and how thats what SHOULD have happened). Banks however are different. When a GM goes Bankrupt, their customers cant buy a K-car.... Big fcuking deal. When a BANK goes bankrupt, their customers lose their life savings - sort of- the U.S. Taxpayer has agreed to insure those life savings up to $200K. Obviously, a lot of people's life savings is worth more than 200K and they get wiped out beyond that amount. So the U.S. taxpayer is already in for a penny.... Instead of us just letting the banks fail and us writing a blank check to bank customers, money we would NEVER have gotten back, we "bailed them out"- In for a pound, and in fact recouped that loan with interest. The U.S. taxpayer gave the banks a "Bridge loan" in a rather ingenious way that FORCED all banks to take the money, so that it was impossible to tell which ones were most exposed to the crisis.

 

This was a particularly worrisome bank crisis. This wasnt "Jims Savings and loan". This was the BIG commercial investment banks, who in turn lend to the smaller regional banks around the nation... If they continued to fall, it would have been a cascade down the line.

 

 

 

I just don't know any one individual in the banking business who got personally nailed either through jail time and/or severe fines or lawsuits forcing him into bankruptcy. There are many well intentioned people in the consulting professions that through slight negligence and some bad luck are on the hook way worse than what these guys are in for.

 

 

 

Playing with other people's money should be held to an accountability standard much like that of a MD, PE, ESQ, etc. Until an individual licensee can be put on the hook, it's not the same kind of regulation. It's just human nature to act more responsibly when you have no safety net to protect you.

 

Um... Really? You know what people in those positions do? They buy "Malpractice insurance". Its not MY money... Its the insurance companies... And it takes a lot more than a little NEGLIGENCE, a mistake, to lose a license.... It basically takes a CRIME, or SERIES of crimes to lose a license.

 

Meanwhile, now that we live in a new world, banks have all the reason in the loan to have a knee jerk reaction and make it so much harder to qualify for loans or financing. For the majority of people who were responsible and knew what they were doing, they are struggling unnecessarily.

 

Well which is it? They really want to loan money to people they know cant afford it? or theyre just using this as an excuse to not loan money to anybody which is what they really want?

 

This lack of credit availability is bordering on its OWN CRISIS, and its not even 1/100th as bad as things would have been if TARP had failed.

This thread is now closed to anybody with less than 200 posts.

When a GM goes Bankrupt, their customers cant buy a K-car.... Big fcuking deal.

 

 

Why would GM's bankruptcy preclude people from buying a 30 year old Chrysler product?

Why would GM's bankruptcy preclude people from buying a 30 year old Chrysler product?

 

Sorry... it was the only Chrysler product I could think of.

I am 100% on board with them at this time. These are people that have been fucked by a system that they can't change, that is rigged by the people in it. This is a reasonable protest even if you just think it is simply rich vs poor, it is not. The idea is to draw attention to failing government regulations and fraud comitted by these corporations. Nobody is asking for financial parity, like a socialist, they are asking for accountability.

 

My poor dad, a 31 year veteran cop, Vietnam Vet with a PH. He looked down on my tech lifestyle, my spotty job history, told me to get a stable job, but who is over employable now and who is fighting to work through his retirement jusy to pay the bills? He did everything right, everything he was told to do, and the system is fcuking him over. He can't walk in to a Police dept and get a job, but I could walk in to just about any major company and either get an immediate offer or s solid consideration. If I worked part time I'd pull down 6 figures. I could go get job after job, not doing a damned thing, and when they fire me, I have another offer. Repeat the process over and over and make bank. How is that fair?

Hey look man full respect to your fathers work history but quit it with the victim card. There are plenty of people that have begun with nothing and worked their way up the ladder or built up a business from scratch, and people have made fortunes within 5 or 10 years. If your dad can't do it then he can't do it but the possibility is there even if it is very hard to achieve. I havn't done it either but I know that it's possible and it's up to me to do it.

 

 

First thing people need to realise is it's much easier to change themselves than "the system" or other people. Then question everything that everyone is trying to tell you how to run your life and career. People buy into the whole "get the credentials and you will have a secure job the rest of your life" bullshit without looking into it for themselves, just like the whole "get into the real estate game, it's a sure thing", because that's what everyone seems to be doing so it must be the thing to do.

 

If you can't get a job in whatever field, then try to get a job in another field, pick fruit if you have to. I personally just spent all week on the end on an angle grinder helping out a friend and to piece together some $$$$ for my next business. Don't let your ego get in the way of progress. You've only got to look at the bootstrapper thread to see that there is money and opportunities everywhere. People seem to want it all served on a silver platter because they work hard or something. What about working smart too.

 

Don't want to work for someone? Then start up a business. Business too hard? Get a job. There is always something to do. You think that bank over there is making too much money? Buy shares in it. Don't like the rules and regulations? Lobby with your Government, you might even have to "donate" to get heard, just like everyone else. CEOs make too much money for doing fcuk all? Then become a fcuking CEO!!

 

And so what if CEO of company XYZ earns 10 million per year. The money isn't destroyed, it gets taxed, spent, and whatever sits in the bank account at any given time is used by the bank to flip stocks, fund loans, withdrawn by companies to pay wages etc etc.

I'm not out there protesting. I have money in Wall St. Lost serious money during '08, and I don't want to see it happen again. It was the result of de-regulation, and people who knew damn well what they were doing, bankers included, in making those derivatives.

 

There is proof, cold hard proof that bankers KNEW what was going on. That they were selling "shit" loans and knew they were screwing over the entire country. Everyone was doing crack and everyone was waiting until the bubble burst. The top banks, and their top execs are not innocent here.

 

I'm pissed at the banks, the execs, and yes - even Obama - he put some of those who screwed us over in his own cabinet!

 

Have you seen Inside Job? How can anyone who watches that NOT be pissed off? (Including at Obama).

 

Just watched it!

Hey look man full respect to your fathers work history but quit it with the victim card. There are plenty of people that have begun with nothing and worked their way up the ladder or built up a business from scratch, and people have made fortunes within 5 or 10 years. If your dad can't do it then he can't do it but the possibility is there even if it is very hard to achieve. I havn't done it either but I know that it's possible and it's up to me to do it.

You make a horrible assumption that everyone shares your motivation and goals. For some people, they come from a value system (remember when we had values, not just blood-lust?) that was "get a good job, don't be stupid with your money, get a house, start a family, and be the best person you can be". we tell that to a lot of our kids. Not, "fcuk bitches get money at the expense of any one else you can stick the bill to". My dad never desired a Lambo, never wanted a 20 room estate. He went in to a 100 year family tradition of NYPD. I don't think there is a person on this board that has done more for his fellow man than my father. He placed his money in a system that said "we'll take care of you for taking care of us" and only found out that his pension was not really pegged to realistic expectations or mismanaged. I imagine the parents of others on this board are in the same way even if they won't admit it. How many people on this board will be taking care of their infirmed edlerly parents? Maybe you'll use money if you have it, to pay for the problem to go away. Money used in place of responsibility.

 

You call the police and the firemen hoping they know what they are doing. You don't want to know their jobs, or how to do it, hell you pay someone to cut your own lawn and rooter your clogged toilet. When you pay in to your retirement, you assume the people taking care of it are honest, not looking at it as their own piggy bank without fear. When they ruin your chances of having a quiet retirement, and it is gone, or not up to the baseline promised, what are you going to do, be an 80 year old entrepeneuer?

I'm not assuming everyone has high motivation and driven by financial goals at all. I am assuming everyone has real choice, is capable of making that choice and is willing to take full responsibility for making the wrong choice. I am also pointing out that the highly motivated are all mixed in with the lesser motivated, all competing for the dollar and/or a happy life.

 

 

I don't like to use your father as an example as he is a Vietnam Veteran but when you say:

 

"He placed his money in a system that said "we'll take care of you for taking care of us" and only found out that his pension was not really pegged to realistic expectations or mismanaged."

 

it basically says it all. Was this system voluntary?

 

My father has made some monumental mistakes too regarding shares, loans, and management of his superannuation (Australian version similar to the 401k), all from getting sold some idea from trustworthy sources. "Values" was an illusion back then too. It is very easy for me to point that out in hindsight, but I do not want to make the same mistake with my life. I don't mind making mistakes, but just throwing away 10+ years or so of hard work because I didn't do my own research doesn't do it for me.

 

Both my parents had a similar upbringing to yours regarding work ethic and both sides of the family were involved in agriculture for I don't even know how many generations. Times change. Farms get bought out by large scale corporations and multinationals seeking the control over the entire food manufacturing chain from growing, processing and packaging. Economies of scale and ability to ride unfavourable seasons in one area is on their side. They sold out in the mid 90's and both my parents are in their 60's and still work. Both have changed careers at least twice since then.

 

Now I know that doesn't compare with your fathers career but the point I am trying to make is that it takes two to tango, the seller and the buyer. My father took poor financial advice just as yours did, assuming your father had a choice.

My father took poor financial advice just as yours did, assuming your father had a choice.

It may have not been bad advice at all at the time, or maybe they were lied to. The point of the matter is that for a lot of people, the system is tough to understand, or perhaps there is just simply not enough time, or maybe even there is a lot of resistence placed on trying to move your pension, 401k, etc. Even acquiring information is no guarantee that those handling the money are honest at all. And when their former associates are the regulators, you know for a fact, the whole system is suspect, but who can you turn to? You have to speak up.

 

The way it has been working up to now has been often fraud and lies, and the money they play with is never their own, it is always someone else's money. When they lose it they get a golden parachute and a lot of honest people go back in to the workforce to find themselves so far behind the curve. Who's fault is that?

 

As a single guy with a lot of little things going on here and there, and no family to spend it on, I hope that where I am placing my money is not some CEO's yacht fund. I am doing well for myself now, and I am not feeling comfortable that for all the research I have done, that I will ever see what I have put in the system unless it all changes.

How many people on this board will be taking care of their infirmed edlerly parents? Maybe you'll use money if you have it, to pay for the problem to go away. Money used in place of responsibility.

 

 

As a single guy with a lot of little things going on here and there, and no family to spend it on, I hope that where I am placing my money is not some CEO's yacht fund. I am doing well for myself now, and I am not feeling comfortable that for all the research I have done, that I will ever see what I have put in the system unless it all changes.

 

My poor dad, a 31 year veteran cop, Vietnam Vet with a PH. He looked down on my tech lifestyle, my spotty job history, told me to get a stable job, but who is over employable now and who is fighting to work through his retirement jusy to pay the bills? He did everything right, everything he was told to do, and the system is fcuking him over. He can't walk in to a Police dept and get a job, but I could walk in to just about any major company and either get an immediate offer or s solid consideration. If I worked part time I'd pull down 6 figures. I could go get job after job, not doing a damned thing, and when they fire me, I have another offer. Repeat the process over and over and make bank. How is that fair?

 

 

Um... It sounds like your father has FINANCIAL problems... And you apparently don't. So you should be the one paying for his retirement... NOT THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

 

 

 

BTW... A little bit of googling shows that a retired NYPD pension is close to 60 grand a year. And that number is for somebody with TEN fewer years than you say your dad has... The Median U.S. income is 20 grand LESS than that...

 

What exactly is the problem?

Looks like the "Occupy" protests are now global.

Looks like the "Occupy" protests are now global.

 

 

Copenhagen, Denmark.

 

The 'happiest country in the world'?

 

The socialist perfection?

 

 

 

Also, I read this weekend that annual earnings of 350k put you in the 1%. That number seems low to me.

When will people understand not everyone is capable of becoming a millionaire, or a success for that matter. Not everyone is destined for greatness. Some are destined to mop the floors and clean the toilets. That doesn't make them any less of a person, nor should they garnish any less respect from someone who is different from them.

 

When will people understand not everyone is capable of becoming a millionaire, or a success for that matter. Not everyone is destined for greatness. Some are destined to mop the floors and clean the toilets. That doesn't make them any less of a person, nor should they garnish any less respect from someone who is different from them.

 

THANK YOU. And people who work in these industries trust their employers to put a portion of their earnings into a 401k or retirement fund, hoping to retire at 60-something.

Copenhagen, Denmark.

 

The 'happiest country in the world'?

 

The socialist perfection?

 

 

 

Also, I read this weekend that annual earnings of 350k put you in the 1%. That number seems low to me.

 

This better?

 

 

American households right at the 99th percentile (that is, the cut-off for the top 1 percent) will earn about $506,553 in cash income this year, according to a Tax Policy Center analysis

 

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/...hat-99-percent/

Um... It sounds like your father has FINANCIAL problems... And you apparently don't. So you should be the one paying for his retirement... NOT THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

This is not about anybody paying for anyone else because if you thought about taxes even in the slightest, your head would explode. You already are paying for other people's healthcare, education, retirement, etc. Truth be told, my dad is doing fine, he did not retire out of NYPD, but another department. In the end his house was overvalued as the rest of the 'hood was too, because of bad lending practices, so he can still pay for his house even though it lost 20% of the value. This now makes refi a bitch and a half. The people responsible won't be paying (either financially or legally), the government won't be helping... so fcuk him, you lose?

 

Imagine you put $1000 in a savings account. You come back in 20 years, and you'd expect to have at least $1000, but you find out you have $500, after 20 years. So the bank gets bailed out, the execs get bonuses, and you are still stuck with $500. Everyone told you this was safe, not a serious growth portfolio, so you balanced risk vs reward and chose the least risky, pitched as a no-risk in fact. What of your future?

 

You don't have to be a bleeding heart to have some bit of compassion or charity, you just have to have a heart.

 

I personally think that as Americans we have priorities screwed up. We toss people to the fire, have the longest work weeks, the shortest vacations, the latest retirements, we play craps with their 401k, we market ruthlessly to them to have the latest-greatest-fastest-brightest (and devalue them for not having it), we don't even have the common decency to give them a cough drop for a sore throat. Let's get real, we can't really do anything well. We can't manufacture anything, we barely keep it together, yet we think we are king shit and treat any dissenting opinion as an enemy of the state.

This better?

 

 

American households right at the 99th percentile (that is, the cut-off for the top 1 percent) will earn about $506,553 in cash income this year, according to a Tax Policy Center analysis

 

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/...hat-99-percent/

 

It makes sense actually....

 

99% of Americans make less than $500k a year, and the remaining 1% make between $500k and $xxx million or billion.

 

The expectation that the income should be linear is what is throwing everything off here.

 

This better?

 

 

American households right at the 99th percentile (that is, the cut-off for the top 1 percent) will earn about $506,553 in cash income this year, according to a Tax Policy Center analysis

 

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/...hat-99-percent/

 

 

Yes, thanks! I thought 350k was a little low to be a 1%er.

 

The income curve is very steep at the high end, meaning that people just a few tenths of a percentile point above that make much, much more. A family at the 99.5th percentile, for example, makes $815,868; its neighbor at the 99.9th percentile makes more than double that, at $2,075,574 a year.

... yet we think we are king shit and treat any dissenting opinion as an enemy of the state.

 

This is rather true for a good number (but not all of course) Americans 2+ generations in. Those that are 1st generation with foreign born immigrant parents are typically exposed to the other side of the argument, and are more open to being objective.