Martin/Zimmerman thread

I deleted all of his posts.... He made the argument personal. I warned him about it, and then he flipped the fcuk out.

 

I was going to just give him the time out, but he sent me a pretty nasty pm....

 

Needless to say, hes done here.

 

 

 

These types of topics REALLY dont belong here. This one is particularly charged with racial issues that cant be ignored. Regardless its here, and the rules of LP are pretty clear... NO AD HOMONYM ATTACKS on other members.

 

If you cant discuss an issue without :

 

 

 

 

Then you should find a different topic, because its not going to end well for you here.

 

Ok thanks

I was wondering if there would be a thread about this incident in LP considering many of us are avid gun owners and CCW holders. My take on this echos RomanDad, and so I guess I don't have to say much as RD has definitely been covering the bases on the incident. I love his discussions and I like to learn from them.

 

When I first heard about this incident, I could look at it without taking into account the skin color of the individuals. Why is it so hard for people to do that?? I don't care what color the two individuals were. Lets say they were Arancio Borealis and Verde Ithica... it doesn't matter. The fact is, Zimmerman was told by the police dispatcher "DO NOT follow the individual and DO NOT make contact". He disobeyed that and as RD and others have pointed out numerous times - he is the reason this happened. Zimmerman confronted Martin when told not to and started the altercation leading to Martin's death. It was a stupid decision made by Zimmerman and the kid shouldn't be dead right now.

 

For those that don't know, I also look at it as a CCW holder in Ohio. There is a lot of responsibility that comes with having that license and training on carrying a firearm legally concealed. The first thing I thought of was what I would do in the situation. I know I would call the police, alert them to the suspicious person and then it becomes a matter for law enforcement. I can't do more than that if I am in no imminent danger which I have not created for myself by instigating a confrontation. Doing so will then place myself as the aggressor and I will most likely be looking at jail time and the loss of CCW for life.

 

Now, what really bothers me about this case is the racial spin that has been cast on it. I'm sick of the sensational "media" putting pictures up of an 11 year old Martin to make him look more angelic. I'm tired of hearing the rhetoric from Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton - all the usual suspects that come out of the woodwork to make a tragedy into a racial mob. Sickening. People die in senseless acts everyday, why is this so special? Oh that's right, because there is a racial divide to be made.

 

It doesn't need to be that way...

This case is a sad state of affairs the whole way around.

Now, what really bothers me about this case is the racial spin that has been cast on it. I'm sick of the sensational "media" putting pictures up of an 11 year old Martin to make him look more angelic. I'm tired of hearing the rhetoric from Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton - all the usual suspects that come out of the woodwork to make a tragedy into a racial mob. Sickening. People die in senseless acts everyday, why is this so special? Oh that's right, because there is a racial divide to be made.

Im not one to see racism behind every issue (or any issues usually) but I have to say, I think its a factor in this one.

 

 

I think if Zimmerman saw a white teenager walking down the street he may have ignored him (Im not absolutely sure about this, he seemed to call the police every time somebody passed wind).

 

But I'm almost 100% positive it had a bearing on how the investigation was handled. Had Zimmerman been shot dead, Martin would have been arrested right there on the spot, go to jail, go directly to jail, do not collect $200.

 

Hell, If Martin was a 40 year old white guy in a suit, ZIMMERMAN WOULD HAVE BEEN ARRESTED.

 

If Zimmerman was a 17 year old black kid who shot another 17 year old black kid, Zimmerman would have been arrested. In each scenario, the defendant could scream "it was self defense!" and the pleas would have fallen on deaf ears. He'd be arrested, booked and arraigned in a matter of days, if not hours.

 

And THATS the real issue here. ZIMMERMAN SHOULD HAVE BEEN ARRESTED. 10 out of 10 times, all other things being equal, the shooter would be arrested and looking at a day in court. But he wasn't in this case. Thats why this is a news story. Thats where the outrage comes from. The police took his word for how the events went down, because they ASSumed the situation was exactly what it appeared to be. Fat 28 year old Home Owner standing over a dead hoodrat up to no good.

 

The problem is, theyre paid to NOT make those assumptions. They're paid to approach each dead body as CRIME. Until they are CONVINCED beyond any shadow of a doubt it isnt. And if there is any doubt, they err on the side of "its a crime". The fact that you have so many people convinced this WAS a crime, from ALL political and racial spectrums, lets you know something is VERY wrong with how they handled the case.

 

I think they now know they flubbed the initial investigation (and you cant go back and do it over. Crucial evidence is lost after three weeks). So they are issuing these ham handed press releases blaming "The law". If they are seriously this bad at reading the law, they need to hire in-house council to give the entire department a refresher.

 

Keep in mind... I dont think this is OVERT racism... I think this is people making decision based on the stereotypes we all hold. Stereotypes aren't bad in and of themselves. We all have them, and there is usually more than a grain of truth to any of them. Its when we fail to look past them, and let them overwhelm all other considerations that they become dangerous.

 

Thats NOT the law. If it were then anybody who wanted to MURDER somebody, could just pick a fight with them, and then once they start LOSING the fight, they pull out a gun and kill them, and get away with it. Thats AN IMPOSSIBLE interpretation of any law.

Call placed by Zimmerman at the beginning of video..

Help being screamed and the gun shot heard on a police call by a neighbor at 6:24

 

 

Listen to that third call.... 5:16 The caller says it happened at a "back porch". "In a backyard".

 

Now, I havent seen any maps or aerials of the crime scene, but that seems to undercut zimmerman's story that he gets out of his truck and martin jumps him. Unless he was parked in somebodys back yard.

RD - Sir, I am standing hear clapping. I will print out a screen shot of you avatar with your name above it, pin it to my wall and salute it out of respect everyday. I completely agree with everything you wrote. I wanted to chime in but felt I could not articulate anything better than what you have already done.

 

What's absurd is this article trying to turn him into a criminal, so that his murder can be less offensive to the public. Even if he was a criminal, which he have no proof of, we let the police handle it. Who do these news article appeal to? I am shocked by the people who read the article and agreed with it.

 

He's a drug dealer - Who cares? We arrest drug dealers, we don't kill them. Its common for kids to abuse marijuana and its common to sell a little to support their habit. That doesn't make them Scarface. Again we don't know if he does this.

 

School Suspension - Should we kill or incarcerate someone for a school suspension?

 

On Trayvon’s MySpace page, at least one of his top friends, Romario305, is featured making a gang sign

Several of his friends have posted pictures of rolled blunts to twitter in memorial to Trayvon.

Guilt by association. What does that have to do with him?

Im not one to see racism behind every issue (or any issues usually) but I have to say, I think its a factor in this one.

 

I understand RD, I read what you posted and it does make sense. Perhaps Zimmerman did have an underlying suspicion fueled by skin color. As well, the police really did make a big SNAFU by making an assumption on who the aggressor was in this situation and not doing a proper investigation.

 

Now I'm getting concerned with the case becoming cannon fodder for the anti-gun, anti-CCW lobbyists and legislature. One incident of this caliber from a concealed carry licensee (or the like) happens and it is so detrimental to the countless other CCW holders who take their responsibility seriously and rationally while posing no threat to society. How long before we hear from The Brady Campaign?

Now I'm getting concerned with the case becoming cannon fodder for the anti-gun, anti-CCW lobbyists and legislature. One incident of this caliber from a concealed carry licensee happens and it is so detrimental to the countless other CCW holders who take their responsibility seriously and rationally while posing no threat to society. How long before we hear from The Brady Campaign?

 

 

Thats already happened. They were the first ones to jump on this story.

 

 

Im suspicious of all professional complainers. PETA, Brady, ETC. People paid to make hay out of issues like this.... Theyre assholes in my book (and if Im fair, the NRA is MY asshole group)..

 

But if we look at the people WHO SUPPORT those groups I have a different take. For the most part, people who support gun control aren't doing it to be mean to gun owners. They aren't getting rich off of it. They aren't in favor of criminals having free reign. They're just AFRAID.

 

They're afraid that in a society WITH guns, some people will do evil things with them (which we have to acknowledge some do- but we counter that with the notion that guns prevent far more evil than they create), and that others will do STUPID things with them. They think ALL gun owners are CRAZY, STUPID, COWBOY, WANNABEE HEROS, overcompensating for their personal lackings with a gun. And guess what... Thanks to gun owners like this schmuck, we have to admit those fears have a degree of credibility as well. When the LAW then FAILS to address that fear by ARRESTING THE SCHMUCK AND CHARGING HIM, because gun owners were the authors of the law, it further VALIDATES their fears that a gun owning society equals a lawless society. Where people can be gunned down for looking the wrong way in the wrong neighborhood and the law won't address it.

 

And yes... Then the Anti Gun lobby will jump all over it and make a poster boy out of the schmuck. But the best way to counter that is for LAW ABIDING gun owners, to demand the law treat him for what he is given his actions that evening- A DEFENDANT.

Call placed by Zimmerman at the beginning of video..

Help being screamed and the gun shot heard on a police call by a neighbor at 6:24

 

The woman commentator seems to have all the answers. She must have been there or is psychic...

Issue aside, its the public starting all the marches and shit that piss me off about this. What about all the other kids all over the US that get murdered each year. Where is the POTUS saying it looks like it would be his son (a mornic move to even get involved on that level IMHO). But the marches and everything else just scream more of this Kony 2012 I want to justify my life by marching on something feeling that is sweeping through the general population. Whomever is guilty, so be it. But let the courts decide and dont make this a national issue that turns into a witch hunt. No one wins then...

Im standing up for this kid and im not ashamed of myself.

 

So just one quick problem with your theory. If the kid was "selling drugs in zimmermans neighborhood" where are the drugs? He had a cola and a bag of candy on his body. So where did the drugs go? Did the crack fairy take them?

 

 

Zimmerman was harassing the kid.. Zimmerman got his ass beat then pulled his gun and shot the kid. Zimmerman has a history of domestic violence(how he get a ccw?) and harassing people because he is a wanna be cop!

 

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/vide...5815FdwUvT50M81

Zimmerman was harassing the kid.. Zimmerman got his ass beat then pulled his gun and shot the kid. Zimmerman has a history of domestic violence(how he get a ccw?) and harassing people because he is a wanna be cop!

 

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/vide...5815FdwUvT50M81

I hadnt heard that... If he has a DV conviction, he cant even OWN a gun. Let alone a CCW.

Thank you for the breakdown RD. It helped me understand the circumstances and issue at hand much better.

What I find surprising is how a 140 lb kid beat up a 250 lb man.....that's where I'm shaking my head.

A 250 pound tub of lard? Unless your in shape at that weight, your out of breath in seconds. It takes some serious energy to move that mass.

RD, when are you getting your own podcast?

 

 

My issue here is that Zimmerman may well be completely in the wrong for what he did. However, he hasn't been charged with a crime. He isn't wanted nor does it look like he will be. We as a society MUST NOT give into the demands of the lynch mob or the to sensational "news" media.

 

We have due process in this country. Yes, it is something that was denied Trayvon when he was shot and killed. But if the ensuing police investigation, witness accounts and available evidence are apparently insufficient to charge Zimmerman, I'm sure as hell not going to call for his arrest/death/castration/etc. People are often so arrogant as to believe they have all the facts when they simply do not.

 

Also, to the mods, please let the record reflect that I disagree with this thread title even if it was Trayvon's Twitter handle. Racial slurs and insensitivity only cloud these situations and I would hope we (LP) are above getting anywhere near terms like the one in the thread title.

Even in light of the societal plague this 'kid' (mere months away from his 18th bday, he's no child guys) was apparantly WELL on his way to being, I find myself siding with the those who say Zimmerman likely provoked the incident and ultimately instigaged the deadly confrontation.

 

The bottom line is that the kid could have been a serial killer for all it matters, but he wasn't engaged in the act at the time Zimmerman decided to take action.

 

It's that simple to me, as it all boils down to the very start of the engagement.

 

Everything that happened after is ultimately a result of Zimmerman getting out of his car and deciding to attempt some sort of misguided citizen's arrest (and I'm being generous using that term for what witnesses have stated occurred...as they've described it more as Zimmerman was actively harassing the kid, which may have led the kid to feel HE was threatened).

 

From what we know about this kid he was absolutely on a fastrack to one of America's penitentaries at some point soon. Little doubt about it statisically based on the multiple school suspensions and what they were for.

 

But that doesn't matter to me, again, he could have been a serial killer for all I care but he wasn't engaged in the act at the time Zimmerman was shadowing him, thus there was no real justification for Zimmerman deciding to take action here.

 

That's as emotionally detached as I think the issue can be (and race-detached hopefully as well).

My issue here is that Zimmerman may well be completely in the wrong for what he did. However, he hasn't been charged with a crime. He isn't wanted nor does it look like he will be. We as a society MUST NOT give into the demands of the lynch mob or the to sensational "news" media.

 

We have due process in this country. Yes, it is something that was denied Trayvon when he was shot and killed. But if the ensuing police investigation, witness accounts and available evidence are apparently insufficient to charge Zimmerman, I'm sure as hell not going to call for his arrest/death/castration/etc. People are often so arrogant as to believe they have all the facts when they simply do not.

 

Also, to the mods, please let the record reflect that I disagree with this thread title even if it was Trayvon's Twitter handle. Racial slurs and insensitivity only cloud these situations and I would hope we (LP) are above getting anywhere near terms like the one in the thread title.

 

I hadnt even really noticed the thread title up until now.... You make a good point. Could you suggest an ALTERNATE thread title?

My issue here is that Zimmerman may well be completely in the wrong for what he did. However, he hasn't been charged with a crime. He isn't wanted nor does it look like he will be. We as a society MUST NOT give into the demands of the lynch mob or the to sensational "news" media.

 

We have due process in this country. Yes, it is something that was denied Trayvon when he was shot and killed. But if the ensuing police investigation, witness accounts and available evidence are apparently insufficient to charge Zimmerman, I'm sure as hell not going to call for his arrest/death/castration/etc. People are often so arrogant as to believe they have all the facts when they simply do not.

 

Also, to the mods, please let the record reflect that I disagree with this thread title even if it was Trayvon's Twitter handle. Racial slurs and insensitivity only cloud these situations and I would hope we (LP) are above getting anywhere near terms like the one in the thread title.

 

I think that is what many are finding fault with...the fact that Zimmerman WAS NOT charged with anything...based on the circumstances it appears as though the police didn't do their job and merely took zimmerman's word as to what took place. As RD pointed out, if the roles were reversed and it was a black shooter and a white/hispanic shootee then the shooter would have been arrested given the same circumstances. Due process is fine, if its followed, and it appears based on the investigation, circumstances, witness accounts, and available evidence, points to AT LEAST suspicious circumstances regarding the shooting and should constitute enough probable cause for an arrest...maybe not to CONVICT, but that's not the proper level yet.

 

Think about it. You have a man riding around in a neighborhood with a gun (which sounds like he may be unlawfully carrying said gun), following a teenager, being told by the police to leave the teenager alone. He doesn't do that. He confronts the teenager and then the teenager is shot and killed...SHOT AND KILLED...and the person who did the shooting is not arrested? People in neighborhood conflicts get arrested for much less...Adult punches a kid in the face...gets arrested...adult solicits a kid for sex...arrested...adult flashes his peepee at a kid...gets arrested...adult brandishes a gun at a kid...gets arrested...adult shoots a kid with a paintball gun...gets arrested...Adult shoots and kills a kid after being told BY THE POLICE to stop following the kid and to basically leave him alone...not at least arrested?

 

It may turn out that Zimmerman was in fact accosted by this kid and he may be able to prove his self-defense claim...but right now he doesn't even have to go there yet, because he has not been charged with jack shit, and thats what is rubbing people the wrong way.

fcuking moron

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/27/paper-sp...oman-in-danger/

Think about it. You have a man riding around in a neighborhood with a gun (which sounds like he may be unlawfully carrying said gun), following a teenager, being told by the police to leave the teenager alone. He doesn't do that. He confronts the teenager and then the teenager is shot and killed...SHOT AND KILLED...and the person who did the shooting is not arrested? People in neighborhood conflicts get arrested for much less...Adult punches a kid in the face...gets arrested...adult solicits a kid for sex...arrested...adult flashes his peepee at a kid...gets arrested...adult brandishes a gun at a kid...gets arrested...adult shoots a kid with a paintball gun...gets arrested...Adult shoots and kills a kid after being told BY THE POLICE to stop following the kid and to basically leave him alone...not at least arrested?

 

If an adult punches a kid who is attacking them though they may not be arrested, it would probably depend (like on the size of the kid for example). If he had just shot Trayvon in cold blood, then he'd have probably been arrested, but he told the police that he was being attacked and had a broken nose and injuries to the back of his head, so the police took him at his word in this.

 

One thing I don't get though is everyone saying that if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, that Zimmerman is the one who started the incident by following, as if to say, "What did he expect would happen?" Well yes, in the sense of following Trayvon, but if upon being told by the police to stop following him, he did so, and then Trayvon came back and started attacking him, at that point, isn't it also Trayvon's fault? I mean if some a-hole is following you and then they stop and you decide to go over and start beating them up, well now you're the one who's escalating the incident and asking for trouble. His following Trayvon and then stopping I do not think makes him at fault for Trayvon's deciding to attack him if that is what happened. Even if he refused to stop following the kid, I still do not think that justifies Trayvon attacking him. Just because someone follows you doesn't give you justification to attack them, unless you think your own life is being threatened.

 

Assuming that is what happened though, which we don't know for sure, then that doesn't necessarilly justify Zimmerman shooting Trayvon either. But if Zimmerman's head was being slammed into the ground and he was getting beaten hard (broken nose and injuries to back of head), then he may have feared for his life I suppose.

One jerkoff mall cop and now Congress is involved, oh brother...

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/...ocid=ansmsnbc11

One jerkoff mall cop and now Congress is involved, oh brother...

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/...ocid=ansmsnbc11

 

Here we go. And to think that in unearthing so much history on Zimmerman, did this family not believe that other media groups would not unearth every little detail on their son? If your story becomes national, you better be ready for a lot more to become public. I'm referring to the pictures of their son, the school suspension records, etc. that they believed are tarnishing their son's reputation. Media will dig on both sides, it's a little naive to think they won't.

 

 

As well, good post Milligan. I too thought the thread title was a bit much, good on you for speaking up, shame on me for not.

One thing I don't get though is everyone saying that if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, that Zimmerman is the one who started the incident by following, as if to say, "What did he expect would happen?" Well yes, in the sense of following Trayvon, but if upon being told by the police to stop following him, he did so, and then Trayvon came back and started attacking him, at that point, isn't it also Trayvon's fault? I mean if some a-hole is following you and then they stop and you decide to go over and start beating them up, well now you're the one who's escalating the incident and asking for trouble. His following Trayvon and then stopping I do not think makes him at fault for Trayvon's deciding to attack him if that is what happened. Even if he refused to stop following the kid, I still do not think that justifies Trayvon attacking him. Just because someone follows you doesn't give you justification to attack them, unless you think your own life is being threatened.

 

The evidence doesnt support this though wheels...

 

Zimmerman is following him IN A CAR. If you STOP FOLLOWING in a car, you TURN THE CAR AROUND AND GO BACK TO YOUR HOME. OR... You pull the car over WHERE YOU ARE, LOCK THE DOORS and SIT YOUR ASS IN IT. Cars are WONDERFUL THINGS... Theyre made of steel and aluminum and glass, and they have a thing called an accelerator peddle that makes them drive away from places REALLY FAST.... A lot faster than a person can run.... and its very hard to beat somebody up when theyre sitting in one.

 

He wasn't attacked OUTSIDE HIS HOME as he was getting out of his car.... He was "attacked" "Down by the clubhouse" where Martin was walking.

 

Facts:

 

Its NIGHTTIME

Its RAINING

Zimmerman is NOT in his car when he says he was attacked.

Zimmerman is NOT in his driveway or his garage when he says he was attacked.

 

IF HE STOPPED "FOLLOWING HIM"(/chasing him) WHY DID HE GET OUT OF HIS CAR WHERE HE DID?

I hadnt heard that... If he has a DV conviction, he cant even OWN a gun. Let alone a CCW.

 

 

 

He wasn't convicted I don't think, but he was arrested for domestic violence against his girlfriend in 2007 in which a restraining order was issued.

Also, to the mods, please let the record reflect that I disagree with this thread title even if it was Trayvon's Twitter handle. Racial slurs and insensitivity only cloud these situations and I would hope we (LP) are above getting anywhere near terms like the one in the thread title.

 

I think that is what many are finding fault with...the fact that Zimmerman WAS NOT charged with anything...based on the circumstances it appears as though the police didn't do their job and merely took zimmerman's word as to what took place. As RD pointed out, if the roles were reversed and it was a black shooter and a white/hispanic shootee then the shooter would have been arrested given the same circumstances. Due process is fine, if its followed, and it appears based on the investigation, circumstances, witness accounts, and available evidence, points to AT LEAST suspicious circumstances regarding the shooting and should constitute enough probable cause for an arrest...maybe not to CONVICT, but that's not the proper level yet.

 

Think about it. You have a man riding around in a neighborhood with a gun (which sounds like he may be unlawfully carrying said gun), following a teenager, being told by the police to leave the teenager alone. He doesn't do that. He confronts the teenager and then the teenager is shot and killed...SHOT AND KILLED...and the person who did the shooting is not arrested? People in neighborhood conflicts get arrested for much less...Adult punches a kid in the face...gets arrested...adult solicits a kid for sex...arrested...adult flashes his peepee at a kid...gets arrested...adult brandishes a gun at a kid...gets arrested...adult shoots a kid with a paintball gun...gets arrested...Adult shoots and kills a kid after being told BY THE POLICE to stop following the kid and to basically leave him alone...not at least arrested?

 

It may turn out that Zimmerman was in fact accosted by this kid and he may be able to prove his self-defense claim...but right now he doesn't even have to go there yet, because he has not been charged with jack shit, and thats what is rubbing people the wrong way.

Well said.

 

If an adult punches a kid who is attacking them though they may not be arrested, it would probably depend (like on the size of the kid for example). If he had just shot Trayvon in cold blood, then he'd have probably been arrested, but he told the police that he was being attacked and had a broken nose and injuries to the back of his head, so the police took him at his word in this.

 

What Zimmerman says is irrelevant. First, Zimmerman was an idiot (from a legal standpoint) for saying he shot Martin. Rule one is you NEVER say ANYTHING to the police. EVER! But he did. So now he has admitted to a HOMICIDE. You arrest right then and there. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are. This turned out like some hollywood action movie where the 'good' guy tells the cops what happened and they just 'go on their merry way'. Due process was never even started because it starts with the arrest of Zimmerman so that he could THEN assert and affirmative defense.