Martin/Zimmerman thread

Not at all. Totally wrong. "So in Florida, the police must have probable cause to believe that the defendant wasn’t acting in lawful self-defense in order to arrest the defendant. It’s not enough to say, “we have probable cause to believe that you killed the victim, so we’ll arrest you and then sort out later how strong your self-defense case is.”

 

That is not the law, ANYWHERE.

 

 

First of all, we dont need "probable cause" to beleive Zimmerman killed the victim, WE KNOW HE DID... HE ADMITS IT.... IT IS AN UNCONTESTED, STIPULATED FACT. The legal presumption (and the presumption that ALL POLICE DEPARTMENTS WORK UNDER) is that ALL HOMICIDES are a crime UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE. If the defendant wants to claim self defense HE HAS THE BURDEN OF PROVING, 1. That a REASONABLE PERSON in the same or similar circumstances would have acted as he did, and feared for their life and 2., that he did in fact fear for his life, and he used the least amount of force necessary to prevent the harm.

 

The law RIGHTLY shifts this burden to the Shooter, because THE DEAD PERSON CANT GIVE THEIR SIDE OF THE STORY!

 

Now, analyzing those rules:

 

1. A reasonable person would not, BY DEFINITION, confront a person, after being advised by the police NOT TO.

 

2. A reasonable 28 year old man usually does not feel their lives are in danger when they are in a hand to hand altercation a SINGLE UNARMED assailant. THERE IS NO DISPARITY OF FORCE. MARTIN WAS UNARMED, He was NOT of GIANT physical proportions and he didnt have 3 friends helping him kick the guys ass. and finally, ZIMMERMAN HAD THE GUN! HE WAS THE ONE WITH THE APPARENT ABILITY to inflict LETHAL FORCE.

First of all.

 

Second. Following the kid is not against the law, especially within a gated community where everyone knows everyone.

I live in a gated community I sure as shit dont know everybody... And Im not dumb enough to pretend that I do, or act in an aggressive manner when I see somebody I dont recognize. They could be guest of other residents, or simply neighbors Ive never met.... ZIMMERMAN assumed that the kid DIDNT belong there... FACT: THE KID DID BELONG THERE.

Third, getting out of the truck could easily be a case of trying to get close to identify the person visually within close distance and talk face to face. If he really wanted to kill the kid he would have run him over, that simple

 

 

Whoa.... I dont think he "intended" to kill the kid. I think he made a series of INCREDIBLY STUPID AND WRONG DECISIONS, That were fueled by paranoia and his own prejudices, that culminated in him making another dumb (and ILLEGAL) decision to shoot Martin, unnecessarily.

 

In the legal biz, we have a word for situations like that: Manslaughter.

Agreed. If my neighborhood was having burg or vandalism issues and I saw an unknown person walking the neighborhood I would feel inclined to inquire about there intentions. Could it be dangerous? Yes. Could it be dangerous to not do it? Yes. If the person has a worthy agenda they could easily answer about their intentions, or simply tell me that it is none of my business and they have nothing to say to me. Either way I have heard them speak without them a)running, b)getting defensive or physical, and I would be make my decision then as to whether or not I think police involvement may be required.

 

Now, do I think that the kid was out robbing or vandalizing things? Probably not. Do I think that the kid likely copped an attitude and decided to turn the interaction physical thus escalating the situation? Yes. If he did indeed decide to beat this guys ass because he does not like being asked about his activities then he must then accept the possible outcomes of that decision. In this case it was the supposed victim using deadly force to subdue his supposed aggressor.

 

Eric, I do understand where you are coming from. All of your points make sense, however it is a matter of opinion until the true facts surface. Once the entire discovery is released, we're discussing 'if' scenarios.

 

Best

Guilty until proven innocent??? Interesting. Zimmerman had a gun, but he had no idea what the hell the kid had or intended to do in the neighborhood. Martin is taller by over 6 inches. I talk to people all the time when they are in my neighborhood, especially if they are strangers. It does not have to be uncordial. We live in a society that is too indifferent to what goes on around us. This guy happens to agree. FACT, ZIMMERMAN HAD NO WAY OF KNOWING IF THE KID BELONGED THERE, IF HE WAS UP TO SOMETHING, WHATEVER. Why do you think he followed him and got out of his vehicle to talk to him? That completely exposes him, it's not smart tactically.

 

You think that he made decisions that led to him to shooting Martin, yet you have no idea what they said to each other, who instigated the battery, even if there was a struggle for the gun, or whatever.

 

You are completely jumping the gun here. There is no information whatsoever yet, otherwise THE POLICE WOULD HAVE ARRESTED HIM.

Where is your law degree from exactly?

Guilty until proven innocent??? Interesting. Zimmerman had a gun, but he had no idea what the hell the kid had or intended to do in the neighborhood.

 

So wrong place at the wrong time is reason enough for the kid to be killed?

That shit makes me fcuking sick. I am so tired of the racist rhetoric that is flying around. This kid was no angel. He was likely running drugs in this guys neighborhood and got caught by the long arm of the civilian law, and he decided to be a badass. I love it, 5'9" hispanic gets his ass pounded by a 6'3" black kid and defends himself but somehow we end up with a hate crime.

 

Those standing up for this kid should be ashamed of themselves.

 

What I find surprising is how a 140 lb kid beat up a 250 lb man.....that's where I'm shaking my head.

I wonder whether or not Zimmerman would have even followed the guy if he didn't have a gun... something tells me he wouldn't have, regardless of whether or not he was a neighborhood watchmen and what he considered his responsibility.

Agreed. If my neighborhood was having burg or vandalism issues and I saw an unknown person walking the neighborhood I would feel inclined to inquire about there intentions. Could it be dangerous? Yes. Could it be dangerous to not do it? Yes. If the person has a worthy agenda they could easily answer about their intentions, or simply tell me that it is none of my business and they have nothing to say to me. Either way I have heard them speak without them a)running, b)getting defensive or physical, and I would be make my decision then as to whether or not I think police involvement may be required.

 

Zimmerman ALREADY determined that police involvement was required, he called them, when a reasonable person would say "hmm, I wonder who that is? I think Ill watch him from my bedroom window".

 

You can HEAR on the 911 call that HE IS GETTING AGITATED. You can TELL by the history of calling 911 and being overly concerned about the history of burglaries (to the point of paranoid) in the neighborhood, and his kneejerk reaction that everybody he saw who looked out of place (especially if they were black) were "Involved in the recent burglaries".

 

He had ZERO evidence to reach that conclusion.... yet he reached it... Over, and over again... He had decided that he was going to catch this one "before he got away" (some people say he says "These coons always get away..." I don't hear that on the tape. I hear "They fcuking always get away".) But he acted as JUDGE, JURY and EXECUTIONER that evening and he legally had the right to act as NONE of them. He decided he was going to make some half-assed citizens arrest, he FOLLOWED the kid, the kid RAN AWAY from the crazy fuckstick following him, Zimmerman caught up to him, and gets OUT of the car to CHASE HIM ON FOOT... (BTW, CHASING somebody, is ASSAULT- implicit in chasing somebody is "im going to use (in this case unjustified) physical force on you when I catch you".) AT NO POINT WAS ZIMMERMAN JUSTIFIED IN ANY OF THIS!

 

The problem is, its a case of a dog chasing a car- What do you do when you catch it? He had NO LEGAL RIGHT TO DO ANYTHING when he caught the kid. The kid hadn't broken ANY laws. If he so much as lays a hand on him its Battery.

 

I don't for a SECOND believe Zimmermans story that the kid jumped him out of nowhere after Zimmerman got out of his car to read a street sign- That doesn't pass the laugh test. It doesn't MAKE SENSE, and it doesn't jive with what we HEAR ZIMMERMAN SAYING ON THE TAPE.

 

So, either Zimmerman CAUGHT him, and put his hands on the kid, OR BRANDISHED THE GUN, or maybe the kid gets tired of running and turns to FIGHT the crazy sonofabitch who has been chasing him... Thats COMPLETELY WITHIN THE KIDS RIGHT OF SELF DEFENSE.. Hes FEELING THREATENED. Hes being CHASED (possibly by somebody brandishing a firearm). He used PHYSICAL, NON LETHAL FORCE to STOP THE THREAT. Zimmerman being a fat fcuking mall ninja, starts to get his ass kicked. He has already decided Martin is a burglar, so he shoots him.

 

The police show up, see a 28 year old that can immediately be identified as living in the neighborhood (who called 911) and a black teen who lives in the hood (they dont yet know he is visiting his dad's girlfriend who lives in the community). Zimmerman tells him the kid attacked him and they jump to the same conclusion Zimmerman did.. He shot a prowler.. They take his word for it , chalk one up for "the good guys" and flub the investigation.

 

A day later they find out their theory of the case is shit, but its too late.

 

And now here we are.

Are you a police officer? Where is your arrest warrant for Zimmerman? You know everything so why don't you yourself go arrest him.

 

I don't need a law degree, as all of this shit is completely and totally circumstantial, from both sides.

 

"Stand your ground" governs U.S. federal case law in which self-defense is asserted against a charge of criminal homicide

 

They cannot determine whether the homicide is criminal or justifiable at this time. As such no charges have been filed, and he has not been arrested

Im a police officer here.... Capish?

 

And your lack of a law degree is showing....

 

Stand your ground has NO bearing on U.S. Federal Case law.... That sentence is completely non nonsensical.

 

This is a STATE crime. And Stand your ground is a STATE law. Traditionally the law of self defense REQUIRES the person asserting it tried to AVOID using lethal force by RUNNING AWAY from the threat. Only when they COULDNT run away (or they were in their own home) could they employ lethal force. Im all in favor of stand your ground laws, but it has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING ON THIS CASE.

 

Under no circumstance does it allow somebody to CHASE DOWN somebody.

 

But dont take my word for it.

 

 

BTW

 

For those looking to criticize the media: HERE is what's worthy of criticism from that article.

 

Florida's law, called "stand your ground" by supporters and "shoot first" by critics, was passed in 2005 and permits residents to use deadly force if they "reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

 

Traditionally, self-defense laws did not typically extend beyond a person's home, but the Florida law, and at least 20 more passed across the country since them, allows a resident to "meet force with force" almost anywhere, including the street or a bar.

 

The two underlined sentences are complete nonsense. The first is a restatement of the law of self defense as it stand in every jurisdiction in the United States (and I BELIEVE current English Common Law as well) Stand your ground merely negates the requirement at Common Law to RUN AWAY from the threat if possible.

 

The second is a complete fiction. The right of self defense exists in the home, in the street, on the moon, and in the parlor with colonel Mustard. I Doubt I need to make that point here, but Im just saying.... THATS where the media is fcuking this up.

You know what, it doesn't matter at all, f!ck it. We apparently know he's guilty of 1st degree murder, let's all just go and kill him right now. Yeah? Sound good? Go get that bounty on his head. Yeah, no kidding, he banged his own head against the concrete after he shot Martin immediately the moment he saw him. No talking or anything whatsoever. Smashed it till it bled. Then he rolled around in the grass and slammed it on the other side as well.

 

We know absolutely everything. I mean, it couldn't possibly be a struggle for the gun, an accidental discharge, or self defense. There is no way, we know he shot him in cold blood. And in fact, he was pulling the trigger multiple times over and over again, but the gun jammed so he couldn't put more rounds into Martin.

Youre done....

 

 

See you this summer.

 

 

We will be without accelerator for the next 90 days.

 

Anybody who cant discuss the issue like an adult will join him.

Too hot in the kitchen?

 

edit: damn you're quick!

Too hot in the kitchen?

 

edit: damn you're quick!

 

Are you looking to join him?

nope!

nope!

I am haunted by what I heard on one of the phone calls by the neighbors while the altercation was going down. You could hear a kid screaming "help! help! help!" Then then you hear a single gunshot. If Zimmerman is being attacked by the kid, why is the kid yelling for help just before he was hot in the chest? Would that not imply that just in the moment before that Zimmerman was in control. You have the kid at gunpoint, hold him there. If you listen to the series of tapes, you hear Zimmerman told not to follow the kid.. you hear him following him and huffing and puffing, so he is clearly chasing him. An yea--where are the drugs... i guess candy and soda is the new "drug." Regardless of whether this kid was bad or not, in this instance, I agree with RD... this was premeditated murder. Pure and simple. A worthless tragedy because someone who is mentally unstable declared himself judge and jury.

 

SENSELESS!

Nice Eric! You delivered as promised!

I am haunted by what I heard on one of the phone calls by the neighbors while the altercation was going down. You could hear a kid screaming "help! help! help!" Then then you hear a single gunshot. If Zimmerman is being attacked by the kid, why is the kid yelling for help just before he was hot in the chest? Would that not imply that just in the moment before that Zimmerman was in control. You have the kid at gunpoint, hold him there. If you listen to the series of tapes, you hear Zimmerman told not to follow the kid.. you hear him following him and huffing and puffing, so he is clearly chasing him. An yea--where are the drugs... i guess candy and soda is the new "drug." Regardless of whether this kid was bad or not, in this instance, I agree with RD... this was premeditated murder. Pure and simple. A worthless tragedy because someone who is mentally unstable declared himself judge and jury.

 

SENSELESS!

 

 

Don't think Dubbers wasn't thinking about where his guns were when you came close to his side of the fence and you didn't have soda or candy!

It seems like the important detail that is missing is where did their interaction take place.

 

Did Zimmerman chase after and confront Trayvon or as the below news article claims, did Zimmerman lose sight of Trayvon and retreat

 

 

"In Mr. Zimmerman’s sequence of events to the police, he returned to his SUV after he was unable to find him. Mr. Martin then allegedly approached Mr. Zimmerman from behind and they exchanged words. Then, Mr. Zimmerman said, Mr. Martin hit him hard enough that he fell to the ground and began slamming his head into the sidewalk. "

 

 

 

Wouldnt this help clarify who the aggressor was? but I guess you would need to know the distances involved to determine anything.

 

 

I am haunted by what I heard on one of the phone calls by the neighbors while the altercation was going down. You could hear a kid screaming "help! help! help!" Then then you hear a single gunshot. If Zimmerman is being attacked by the kid, why is the kid yelling for help just before he was hot in the chest? Would that not imply that just in the moment before that Zimmerman was in control. You have the kid at gunpoint, hold him there. If you listen to the series of tapes, you hear Zimmerman told not to follow the kid.. you hear him following him and huffing and puffing, so he is clearly chasing him. An yea--where are the drugs... i guess candy and soda is the new "drug." Regardless of whether this kid was bad or not, in this instance, I agree with RD... this was premeditated murder. Pure and simple. A worthless tragedy because someone who is mentally unstable declared himself judge and jury.

 

SENSELESS!

For the record, there is some question as to WHO's voice is screaming for help.... Some have said it was Zimmerman. To me, it really doesnt matter. Zimmerman set the wheels in motion that lead to this clusterfuck.

 

I dont however think it was premeditated. I think it was a case of : A complete fcuking idiot ; with an incredible inferiority complex and ; a gun, setting out to do WHAT HE THINKS IS RIGHT, ACTING LIKE A COWBOY, and being WRONG at every turn.

 

Theres a lot more to gun ownerships than shooting straight. Theres knowing WHEN you can and cant present it...

 

And more than that... As Nima alluded to, there is a the phenomenon of copper-jacketed courage. As somebody who CARRIES a gun, you do from time to time hear a voice that says "I'm not afraid of : that guy/ this situation/ that dark alley" "after all, Ive got a gun." Carrying a gun means hearing that voice, recognizing it for what it is, and learning to IGNORE IT. IN EVERY INSTANCE.

 

I have a Florida CCW. They send you a booklet with the Florida Laws that tells you when you can and cant use the gun.... Zimmerman used his for toilet paper that night.

 

Youre encouraged to NOT intervene. ESPECIALLY in non- life threatening situations. There are dozens of articulated reasons, not the least of which are tactical. They teach you to "BE A GOOD WITNESS."

 

If you see shit, CALL 911, THEN SECURE YOURSELF AND YOUR LOVED ONES. THATS YOUR JOB.

 

They may always get away befpre the cops show, but WHO fcuking CARES?

I have again created controversy!! wooooohoooooo

Zimmerman ALREADY determined that police involvement was required, he called them, when a reasonable person would say "hmm, I wonder who that is? I think Ill watch him from my bedroom window".

 

You can HEAR on the 911 call that HE IS GETTING AGITATED. You can TELL by the history of calling 911 and being overly concerned about the history of burglaries (to the point of paranoid) in the neighborhood, and his kneejerk reaction that everybody he saw who looked out of place (especially if they were black) were "Involved in the recent burglaries".

 

He had ZERO evidence to reach that conclusion.... yet he reached it... Over, and over again... He had decided that he was going to catch this one "before he got away" (some people say he says "These coons always get away..." I don't hear that on the tape. I hear "They fcuking always get away".) But he acted as JUDGE, JURY and EXECUTIONER that evening and he legally had the right to act as NONE of them. He decided he was going to make some half-assed citizens arrest, he FOLLOWED the kid, the kid RAN AWAY from the crazy fuckstick following him, Zimmerman caught up to him, and gets OUT of the car to CHASE HIM ON FOOT... (BTW, CHASING somebody, is ASSAULT- implicit in chasing somebody is "im going to use (in this case unjustified) physical force on you when I catch you".) AT NO POINT WAS ZIMMERMAN JUSTIFIED IN ANY OF THIS!

 

The problem is, its a case of a dog chasing a car- What do you do when you catch it? He had NO LEGAL RIGHT TO DO ANYTHING when he caught the kid. The kid hadn't broken ANY laws. If he so much as lays a hand on him its Battery.

 

I don't for a SECOND believe Zimmermans story that the kid jumped him out of nowhere after Zimmerman got out of his car to read a street sign- That doesn't pass the laugh test. It doesn't MAKE SENSE, and it doesn't jive with what we HEAR ZIMMERMAN SAYING ON THE TAPE.

 

So, either Zimmerman CAUGHT him, and put his hands on the kid, OR BRANDISHED THE GUN, or maybe the kid gets tired of running and turns to FIGHT the crazy sonofabitch who has been chasing him... Thats COMPLETELY WITHIN THE KIDS RIGHT OF SELF DEFENSE.. Hes FEELING THREATENED. Hes being CHASED (possibly by somebody brandishing a firearm). He used PHYSICAL, NON LETHAL FORCE to STOP THE THREAT. Zimmerman being a fat fcuking mall ninja, starts to get his ass kicked. He has already decided Martin is a burglar, so he shoots him.

 

The police show up, see a 28 year old that can immediately be identified as living in the neighborhood (who called 911) and a black teen who lives in the hood (they dont yet know he is visiting his dad's girlfriend who lives in the community). Zimmerman tells him the kid attacked him and they jump to the same conclusion Zimmerman did.. He shot a prowler.. They take his word for it , chalk one up for "the good guys" and flub the investigation.

 

A day later they find out their theory of the case is shit, but its too late.

 

And now here we are.

 

Haven't heard any of the tapes, only the statement by the local LE. I'm listening to the call now.

 

Best

Call placed by Zimmerman at the beginning of video..

Help being screamed and the gun shot heard on a police call by a neighbor at 6:24

Hey RD, agree with and cannot disagree with a jot that you have said here but, can you explain this sentence?

 

... That sentence is completely non nonsensical.

 

The crime occured when the police told Zimmerman to back down and he DIDN'T!

Youre done....

 

 

See you this summer.

 

 

We will be without accelerator for the next 90 days.

 

Anybody who cant discuss the issue like an adult will join him.

 

Did I miss where he wasn't being an adult?

Did I miss where he wasn't being an adult?

 

I deleted all of his posts.... He made the argument personal. I warned him about it, and then he flipped the fcuk out.

 

I was going to just give him the time out, but he sent me a pretty nasty pm....

 

Needless to say, hes done here.

 

 

 

These types of topics REALLY dont belong here. This one is particularly charged with racial issues that cant be ignored. Regardless its here, and the rules of LP are pretty clear... NO AD HOMONYM ATTACKS on other members.

 

If you cant discuss an issue without :

 

 

Are you a police officer? Where is your arrest warrant for Zimmerman? You know everything so why don't you yourself go arrest him.

 

Then you should find a different topic, because its not going to end well for you here.